packsaddle

Scoutfish, I was a CM many years ago and it was more fun than anyone ought to be allowed to have. I just loved it. But my son was in scouts already and I needed to move on to stay with him. Just stay focused on the little guys and try not to let the adults get under your skin. To me the cubs were far more fun than the boys. Such fond memories....

OGE, yes you got the name. A few years ago it was nearly impossible to find, even on the web. Guess I need to work on some harder trivia questions.

OGE...how to say this...Keep your day job. (the date was 20 April, not 10) Also, admonitions work best when they are understandable. This applies to that awful thing that we think we say in OA as well, LOL. Perform an experiment next time you attend the OA ceremony: when (inevitably) other old OA members ask you to remind them of the admonition, just whisper gobbledygook. I predict they will be allowed entry without question..why..because the person they whisper it to will be just as clueless as they are. VigilEagle04, I agree. But the point is that Latin IS dead. The claim is that its use is a "potent sign of the Church's universal character". That's the part I would like to have explained. To even claim that any one church has "universal character"...that alone is enough to make me wonder what they're talking about. But to make the further claim that speaking a dead language is a "potent sign" of that universal character...that's going to take some careful explanation before I can understand what the heck they're talking about. They might as well be speaking in, well, Latin. (This message has been edited by packsaddle)

I know OGE is going to take a crack at the trivia question so here's a hint. The Papal astrophysicist lowered his new instrument over the side of the (as yet un-named) ship for the first time on 20 April 1865. Work on that and see if you need another hint. Edited: heh, heh, I bet you were surprised when you Googled that date. Didn't find anything did you? You just need to add one more word to the search. (This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Gern, It's possible that they didn't 'know' Latin but merely how to correctly pronounce it for that performance. Anyway, most people respond to the rhythm, melody, and tonal emphasis, rather than the words for that piece. More about the Vatican. I am very uncertain that when the Vatican kitchen (or commissary, food court, whatever it's called) places a grocery order, that it is placed in Latin. I am also uncertain that, when the Pope-mobile (whatever it's called) is broken down in the shop, the Pope's motor pool explains to the Pope's assistants how the water pump went bad causing the serpentine belt to damage the ignition system and radiator when it came apart and, moreover, they noticed that there is a recall on the fuel injectors....in Latin. Unlikely. Or when, back in the 1800's, the Pope asked the Papal Astrophysicist to study the optical properties of the Mediterranean (making, incidentally, the Papal fleet available to test his instruments in the field) I suspect the request was not in Latin. I know for a fact that the scientific report was not. (5 points to anyone who can come up with the English translation of the ship's name) And, finally, when Father Reginald Foster was informing us that Bible stories are 'just nice stories', he didn't say it in Latin. He said it to us in English. And what was his position in the Vatican? Senior Latin scholar for the Pope. Nice. Fact is, there might be a few people on the planet somewhere who confine themselves to Latin. Last night I heard the Pope address the people of Italy. He did it in Italian. There are far more who speak Swahili or Zapotec than Latin and they speak Swahili and Zapotec as their native language to the others in their society because their languages are still alive and ready to incorporate new concepts that are contemporary and relevant to their societies. If one wants to make an argument about language and "universal character" for some church, I would argue that that church should be ready to embrace all languages, and not to focus on one that almost no-one speaks or understands. Or I could be wrong. Still waiting for that explanation. Edited: Eagle92, correct. Languages evolve...if they are alive (just walk around Brooklyn with an open ear). Latin is preserved like a specimen on my shelf. If preserved in alcohol, WC Fields would say that's not such a bad fate. (This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Yes, yes, I suppose you understand that Latin is not the base for the African, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc. Indian (for that matter Native American as well). That combined with the fact that, like I mentioned before, almost no one uses it anymore in everyday use...hardly qualifies Latin as imparting "universal character", whatever that is. The fact that a few people in Vatican City use it, to me emphasizes how limited it actually is. Italy, the most Catholic country on the planet, speaks....Italian. I can walk around Rome and quickly identify a huge majority of non-Latin-speaking Italians. Sure they listen to the Pope. But they refer to the translation if they want to actually understand what he said. I am still waiting for an explanation of how the use of Latin is a "potent sign of the Church's universal character".

I'm curious. How is it that insistence on the use of a language that no group, no country, no nation of people on the planet use as an everyday way to communicate in their society...how is that evidence of universal character? I could just as well make the argument that it is evidence of universal obscurity, or perhaps universal lack of relevance. Please explain.

Evidence of all those levels of approval is contained in the signatures on page 9. I've never seen a project that met the approval on that page, was completed as planned, and then was rejected by the board. I guess it's possible but if it gets past page 9, unless it doesn't get completed as planned, it's hard to argue against it.

Could you give a little more info, perhaps on parental involvement, family situation?

He is free to ask whenever he likes. However he is not supposed to START the project until all the signatures are in place on page 9 of the project workbook. Edited to add: I see no problem as long as he merely 'lines up' the potential donations. It would be a 'not good' thing to accept the materials prior to approval. But if he has all the pieces in place in order to streamline the process, that's a great exercise of planning. The risk, of course, is that he might NOT get the approval. In that case, as long as he has not received donations yet, all that is needed is to rework the project plan and, if necessary, talk to the donors again.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

So....you dream of being Hamlet?

I got a chuckle out of Beavah's comments about the dead language and all. I've thought similar things except with regard to the requisite Latin description for any new species description. What...a...pain! I do need to add though, to reassure Beavah, he has nothing to worry about from OGE. Hell is a myth and Satan doesn't exist. Have a nice day.

I ran this by some admissions people and Scouting activities and awards are pretty much thrown into the extracurricular activity pot. They are considered but not as much as GPA, academic standing, and SAT/ACT scores.

Frank17, I sincerely hope that tax dollars didn't pay for that.

Someone just yesterday left me a gift at a local dumpster: a nice cast iron DO and a really nice two-sided cast iron griddle. Both have a coat of very light rust but the iron underneath is still smooth and un-pitted. So I'll cut the rust, clean them up, and season them. But some oils are less susceptible to turning rancid. In general, the heavily saturated ones such as palm oil are less of a problem and they can even be stored safely on the shelf. I initially season my cast iron with bacon grease because I like the smell, followed with a finish of palm oil seasoning. My most recent acquisitions will probably need two or three re-seasonings before I'm satisfied. It's nice to know the dumpsters are still productive. growing list: gas lanterns, coleman stoves, folding camp stools, pack frames, assorted animal skulls...nice.

I vote for Sun Drop Golden Cola. "Refreshing as a cup of coffee" http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/05/GoldenCola.jpg More caffeine than Dew ("It'll tickle yore innards"), better flavor than Vault.

The HS band does it around here. Love the product and the price isn't bad either. Can't say the same for popcorn. I say go for it. We do our fundraisers with the boys' little sisters. Wait until rainy football weekends and then dress them in rags and dirt-smudged faces and stand them along the roads leading to the game begging. Man, we rake it in. Here's a photo of one of them. http://judysdolls.com/zen/index.php?main_page=popup_image&pID=554

No special plans because it is a regular service-project weekend. We'd be doing this project regardless. It just happened to fall on this date. I was on my way to a meeting at a Federal building. My wife called to tell me about the first tower. I got to the meeting just in time to see the second one hit. The entire room just sat there stunned, unable to get on with business and then the towers collapsed. I was eventually able to get word that my relatives luckily had not been in the building that day so I called my children at school to let them know their uncles and aunts were OK, not killed in the collapse. My brother-in-law was an elementary school teacher in the city when it happened. They kept the school open through the night...for children who had no one to pick them up. My feelings today are not much different from what they were when I saw the second plane hit. Time has not tempered anything for me.

Brent....Atlanta. If gay leaders exist in my neck of the woods, then in Atlanta...need I say more? OK, there's a finite probability that I could be wrong. No, come to think of it, you're right...probably no gay leaders in your district, what was I thinking?

Could be you're looking for too much. OJ is not too far from my son in age and mine has turned out really nicely. Also, it could be that it was just HIM and it had nothing to do with scouts....but...there was a point where he needed to make a decision: to quit or to see it through to the end. His decision. He made the decision to stick with it because of the examples he had seen. No one in particular, just that he could more easily decide what the 'right' thing was to do. At 22, OJ is still developing and maturing. Mine was too and still is years later. I can't say for sure that scouting did anything more than broadening his view of things. If so that's sufficient as a difference as far as I'm concerned. Other boys gained more or less but if coaches are able to do as much or more, that's good too. But if you're looking for life-changing examples, I suspect those are fewer than the huge number of unspoken incremental changes that I guess you'll have to just take for granted. Maybe I'm just being overly optimistic but I think I see them. Could just be a nice illusion, I suppose.

"The government doesn't own a school "here and there", eh? It owns and runs da vast majority of schools, and has a virtual monopoly in many rural areas." Beavah, one government doesn't own the 'vast majority of schools'. Rather a large number of local governments own them and they are answerable mostly to local constituents and recipients of the services, at least the ones who vote and elect the school boards, etc. Now I could accept the argument that 'the' government, through its subsidies, influences and regulates the vast majority of public schools but that's not the same thing as owning them. With regard to the truly rural sections of my region, there is no way the folks living there would likely have a school of any kind were it not for 'government' schools. Of course, also aimed at my region, there is a political element who would have it just that way if they could.

Gern, Yes, yes, and no. I am in agreement with you on those questions. However, I would feel this way even if the result did not negatively impact other aspects of the program. I am amazed at how persons who otherwise profess an interest in individual freedom are glad to allow a central authority dictate such matters to them and everyone else. Dan, I guess my revulsion toward the stonings, facial and genital mutilations, and similar acts based in other religions label me as prejudiced as well. But it's still hard for me to conclude that support for individual freedoms thereby comprises prejudice just because it disagrees with those who would suppress individual freedoms. Edit: Brent, reality check. You think those 'unavowed' gay persons don't already interact across those CO and district boundaries? Really?(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

A social group of gorillas is called a 'band' or (ironically) a 'troop'. I'll point out for JoeBob, as I have in the past: gay leaders ARE in BSA already. BSA allows it as long as they don't 'avow'. In this sense, the 'local option' is already being practiced. Those local units who allow gay leaders (and the ones I know about are 'known' to the community) do what they want and the homophobes can do what they want. This is the black market for BSA leaders, working freely under the BSA radar screen, but it is working. The local parents already are making their decisions and 'gayness' seems to be pretty far down the list of important things to consider...if the success of the units is an indication. But this is the unavoidable reality. Gay leaders exist, JoeBob. You just don't know who they are, and it's always going to be this way as long as the membership policy remains as it is.

I remember the names of every K-12 teacher I ever had and most of the others who were at the schools as well as the administration. I also remember all of my 1st - 3rd grade classmates and most of the rest of the years, not to mention a huge amount of trivia that I enjoy using to torment them in their old age. Brent, it's actually kind of a curse...some things need to be forgotten. But I get Scoutfish's point. I do remember individual events at school and at scouts that accompanied changes in my life. There are probably more that I don't remember but it is enough for me to know that similar events probably happen to other persons. Yes we do make a difference. To get that hug from a scout or some kind of acknowledgment from parents for helping him tells me that they noticed something and there's a good chance I did make a difference. However, I have always assumed that if I 'gave back' to the community the way I was given the benefit of similar individuals, that I would have this effect and make a difference. I don't need recognition or even confirmation. Knowing I did the right thing is sufficient.

NJ, the recent discussion in this thread has given me a sense of 'dejavu all over again'. It's almost as if we've been transported back to the early 1980's when Jerry Falwell proclaimed that "AIDS is God's punishment" and Senator Denton from Alabama said, "Oh, let the faggots die." And the Reagan administration basically ignored the emergence of this disease because they associated it with gay men....until it emerged in the blood supply and in young children and hemophiliacs...but by then they had squandered precious time to get vital research started that might have saved lives, yes even the lives of some of those evil gay persons that they didn't care about. I feel like I'm watching the same terrible old movie again in this thread - prejudice against a group of people, based in religion, then leads to greater misery for everyone. The shame is that this kind of prejudice seems to be alive and well.