packsaddle

Don't know anything about it but I'm interested in learning. Sounds just great! Almost anything in Montana has to be good. I think it's a great choice.

JMHawkins, thanks for the answer to my original question. The term "Eagle Mill" isn't really a hot button for me. To me it is simply a nebulous, misused, pejorative term that I don't fully understand. But you wrote, "More specifically for me, it's setting the lowest possible bar for checking off the requirements." What happened to simply meeting the written requirements? Those are the bar. Not the lowest nor highest...simply the bar. To me, if anyone wants to set the 'bar' higher, it should be the boy himself, with the support of the leaders if that is his wish. Am I wrong about this? Brent, a long time ago I saw a couple of examples of the boys you just described. However, that troop made their decisions, as I understand it, to try to stay alive, not to carve notches on their Eagle list. That troop hardly fit any of the other characteristics listed by Moosetracker. Almost all of their Eagles were 'deathbed' cases, although when I met with the boys, they were extremely-well-prepared in scoutcraft, etc. I was very impressed. On the contrary, pushing through advancement just didn't seem that important for them so they put it off until the bitter end. As for the drug, theft, etc. stuff, I have no knowledge of the cases you evidently cite. But of the ones I do know about, those are viewed on a case-by-case basis and the units try to support the families. Some of those boys who made some really bad thinking errors, and got caught, turned out just great...BECAUSE they learned that the community would not simply turn away...BECAUSE they learned that other people care about them and would work with them to lead them out of the traps they'd rushed into. They and the community are better for it and I don't begrudge them their Eagle rank. Nor would their units qualify as "Eagle Mills" under the criteria I've read so far.

Actually, no, I don't know what an 'Eagle Mill' is. The implied wink-wink connotes that we all understand that there is such a concept and that is probably true. I am questioning whether we all actually 'know' what it is, or have the same idea about it. I guess my point is that while it seems easy to point out extreme situations and examples, the real test of our ability to distinguish an 'Eagle Mill' from another program is to identify the boundary or marginal threshold that must be passed in order to qualify as a 'mill' as opposed to a really-well-run program. Presumably, from the term itself, the most important characteristic has to do with boys earning Eagle. On the further assumption that they actually earn the rank, what measure do I apply to determine the difference? Or is it purely subjective? For example, in the characteristics given by Moosetracker, how many of those have to apply to a program to qualify as an 'Eagle Mill'? If even one is missing, is it still an 'Eagle Mill'? What about missing two...or three? Does having only one of those characteristics make it an 'Eagle Mill'? Are all of those characteristics of equal importance. If not, then what is the objective weight to be applied to each in order to form this judgment? "1) Have the expectation that the majority of boys should make Eagle at 13 or 14, and pride themselves and point to this young advancement as a proof of them running a successful program." So is it 13 or is it 14? If one boy waits until 18 but all the rest make Eagle by age 14, does that disqualify the program? What about 15? What is the 'proper' age for a boy to make Eagle? "2) Run merit badges during troop meetings as if in a classroom setting. Boys do not have to have the desire to learn the MB, or put much effort in to the MB, just show up and take up space." If they do this but boys do not earn Eagle, does it still apply? A boring troop meeting will most likely result in loss of members. If the MB counselor is an approved MB counselor, who is to say the boys put insufficient effort into the MB, other than the counselor? "3) Do not plan an event unless it is riddled with a list of the advancements they will work on during the event. Adults lead the boys through them." There are two things in this one. 'Adult led' is one and that, I suspect, could apply to a lot of programs that are NOT 'Eagle Mills'. The other thing is that the events include an efficient plan for advancement. Again I suspect there are plenty of other good programs which are not "Eagle Mills" but make plans along these lines. I could be wrong. "4) Program is very Adult driven without giving anything to offer the boys a true boy led troop." See above. "5) Once someone completes a requirement, little time is spent on honing the skill. You go through the motions, do it and then forget it as you move on to the next thing on your list of requirements." If a single boy 'dawdles' does that make it NOT an "Eagle Mill"? What fraction of the unit must savor the moment and hone their skills in order to avoid being an "Eagle Mill"? "6) Little emphisis is put on fun just for ... well... the fun of it. Or learning leadership, or building charactor. You just jump hoops and work through a checklist as if it was a grocery list." If a unit doesn't allow fun activities, I suggest that boys will either leave for other alternatives or else not join in the first place. If this is one characteristic of an "Eagle Mill", I suspect the unit will not last long. Where am I going wrong in all this? So give me something that is clear and objective...something that is clearly understood by anyone who reads it.

Me, I was doing good for a while and then my wife started plying me with cakes, pies, and lots of lasagne, you get the idea. I just can't allow food on my plate to be thrown out so I eat it. Just disappointed that I didn't lose what I hoped. On the other hand, from the looks of things, I'd still have to gain about another 50lbs to get close to Mazzuca. And boy will it be tasty getting there!?

Evidently I'm not going to get an answer to my question. Oh well...in that case, could someone define, "Eagle Mill"? I'd like to be able to point to one if I see it. The Eagle Mills I'm familiar with makes pretty good flour although I understand there's another somewhere that makes good cider. Is an "Eagle Mill" a program that allows boys to meet the requirements and advance as quickly as they want? Is it a program that places no additional impediments other than the requirements? ...or is this a just disparaging term that we apply to successful programs that are not like ours but that we nevertheless consider to be inferior in spite of (because of?) their success?

OGE, It's time for me to confess failure. Regardless of how I try to 'will' some other outcome, the bathroom scale insists that I've gained 2 pounds where I had hoped to lose a few. I hope you had better success.

I'm curious as to why this boy was making the presentation in the first place?

As a previous secretary of defense articulated the second law of thermodynamics, "Stuff Happens." Reality check. They're boys. They're little agents of entropy. Just have an ample supply of replacement pins.

As long as we're comparing useless computer skills, I think I still know how to program a Z80 processor in machine code or CP/M. Gad! Some things I'd soooo like to forget. That was way before DOS. These days not many people even know what Job Control Language was. That's a generation gap. In those days 4K of ram was enormous. 300 baud modems...wow. At one time I could read the code on a paper punch tape. I still have box of punch tape data somewhere. Probably ought to recycle that sometime. I still have one of Clive Sinclair's little computers that I hooked to a car battery and used it in the field to log temperature data remotely. These days you can do that with a device the size of a button.

Sounds like you landed in a good place. Congratulations!

Generalizations (stereotypes, prejudices) work perfectly if applied only to oneself. In this area, in the group of young people and their parents with whom I interact, I can say things are as good as ever and probably better than ever in many respects. Yes, there are some people who make mistakes or are outright selfish or crooked, but for the most part, I see a much better society than the one I grew up in. I'm one of those boomers, I guess, leading edge or so I'm told.

John-in-KC described exactly the process we use. In this area I've not heard of anything like Lisa described.

I think it means the DL for the driver...assuming the driver is usually the owner. I could be wrong but in the case of a rental company or a church, there is no 'Owner' DL. The driver is all there is.

Huh?

Looks like I hijacked things. Sorry. I'll try to lay it to rest now. I first noticed the offending 'spire' when an illustrator friend returned from an illustrators conference with the story. I immediately pulled our copy off the shelf and...O!M!G! ALL of the spires began to look, well, you know. So I stopped looking, and put that video into a safe place (gonna be a collectors item someday). The story my friend heard at the conference is that illustrators normally like to 'sign' their work, either the way Norman Rockwell did (you can be sure HE'D never have drawn something like that)...h'mmm...I hope...or with a signature token (a small piece of art that is always the same and is worked into the illustration kind of like a trademark or something). Anyway, the story goes that Disney doesn't allow 'signing'. The illustrator got upset and left Disney with a very special token. Snopes has put the lie to this story and I have to admit, I'm sorry for that. Sometimes the illusions are more interesting than the reality. Though I'm still a bit suspicious about that claim of it being 'accidental'. Illustrators are quirky and they are quite aware of what they create. Yep, suspicious. Maybe I'm just hanging onto the myth. Back to cub scout salutes.....

The Monkey's Fist Wicked John and the Devil (yes, I know there is no such thing) that one is sometimes the lead-in for the story of Jake(or Jack)-o-my-lantern, another pretty good one. The Wonderful Tarbaby Story There's also a great story from the Appalachians about the deepest snow of all time, and a pretty good depiction of survival with a very humorous twist at the end. I just can't seem to find a title for it. The Big Toe (sometimes called, Where's My Big Toe?) I have a few I concocted myself as well. I try to measure the effect...it's nice to get a little sleep. We also have fun playing campfire games.

I don't remember that particular illustration but I agree, it could be the result of 'artistic license'. I run into this in textbooks and there the problem is really bad if it gets through the review process. An illustrator, on some occasions, has taken a scientific graph of data and altered the lines because they 'look' better with the alteration. The scientist who produced the graph assumes, naturally, that his data are going to be published exactly as they were submitted. In a peer-review such goofs are almost always caught but in textbooks, they are sometimes made late in the process and review is cursory. Oh well. So YOU are the reviewer in this case. At least the mistake is minor and easily corrected. My thoughts go to the original cover of the Disney 'Little Mermaid' video case. THAT was incredible!

I know I'm sure impressed! About those links to the last pages rather than the beginning, that is something the web gurus would have to address.

Back when I as CM, I had the problem Beavah mentioned on many occasions. I had a few single moms, actually quite a few, and some of them would be unexpectedly required to work late, leaving me and my family with their boys. I knew what the score was so I just took the gang out for pizza or a movie or something while we waited...sometimes for 4-5 hours. To me, this was preferable to dropping the kid(s) off at an empty house, like the mom(s) suggested. Somehow we all survived it and I actually have some good memories of those boys and the fun we all had 'after hours'. I miss the cubs.

What does it matter, we're never going to get to 2013 anyway. The whole world ends in 2012, right? Or else that Large Hadron Collider will create a tiny black hole that swallows everything even before then. Have a nice day.

Scoutfish, I hope you have as much fun as I did. Sounds like you're on a good start.

I'll inject something from a dispassionate, third-party perspective. If anyone involved in these exchanges is not already familiar with the fact that Kudu feels very strongly about these things, I apologize in advance. However, as I suspect you DO know this, it isn't constructive to make comments about rants, historical or otherwise. Such comments can appear snide and provocative. On the other hand, just because someone questions something about which we feel passionate, doesn't mean it's an attack on US. I also realize I'm going to look like the pot calling the kettle late for dinner or something like that. Guilty as charged...but not here, not in this thread.

Wingnut, enjoy it while you can. I loved the cubs. I miss them. I'd go back in a heartbeat. They're far better IMHO than the boys. Can hardly wait until grandson is old enough so I can do it again.

If I were in this situation, I would take the CM position and dump the other committees. The little guys are more important than anything and, take it from me, they're a lot more fun. You can still do the Tiger Cub thing with your son AND be CM. I did it with mine, led the Web 1&2 dens and CM at the same time. If you have supportive ACM helpers, a good treasurer, and committee, it's only "one hour per month", tee hee. Seriously, I'd go back to the cubs in a heartbeat. I guess I'll have to wait until grandson is a little older though..... Good luck.

This isn't a practical solution but my friend had a Jack Russell that developed the skill of literally biting them out of the air. It would knock them down and then meticulously kill them with its canine teeth without getting stung (as far as I could tell). I wish I had a video of that to put on Youtube. These wasps get very aggressive in the fall. But the cool temperatures will make this a short duration. Just wait it out.