packsaddle

I am being completely modest when I say that I make the best hot chocolate. I take whatever raw stuff I can find at the store (Swiss Miss is just so cute!) and then double or triple the strength, and add even more raw, dark chocolate from a brick that weighs a ton, testing the taste until it is just right. If I have any left (I use a lot) instead of the brick from some European source, I use the crude, hand-made balls of raw chocolate that I get from Costa Rica or Caribbean sources. Mmmmmmmmmm.

OGE, not a hijack (well maybe almost, just for some levity at this point) I almost forgot about your reference to Judge Chamberlain Haller. It reminded me that there is NO WAY a person can fake a Southern accent, even if they're a really good actor. You either grow up with it or not. Fred tried his best and failed. At least Vinnie was authentic (I almost felt I had married into his family). At Christmas, sometimes a group of inlaws will ask me to "say something". And then, "say something else." I take it all in good humor. But I'm not so certain about the part how I remind them of Jed Clampett.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Trevorum's and Merlyn's comments really hit close to home for me. Several families who are good friends with us have suffered this tragedy and I agree with Merlyn and Trevorum. This kind of thing is something that is always in the back of my mind whenever another student dies from whatever cause, that it might be one of my current or former students, and this is a prospect that I know increases with numbers, I just dread the day. I can barely imagine the horror and despair I would feel if I was one of the parents. I see those parents every day. It is something that NEVER stops hurting.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

I, for one, would like to thank the girls for reminding me once a year that a cookie is also something that can pleasantly infiltrate my digestive system...and not my computer system.

If Johnson sent letters out, I didn't get one. But I do have his signature on my certificate.

Interesting. Boys no longer go door-to-door in our area. Instead they set up (with permission) outside several grocery stores and distribute lists of suggested items (supplied by the local charities). If someone wants to contribute they drop it off as they exit. We do pretty well this way. But back when we DID go door-to-door Scoutfish is right. They had a great time racing from house to house, leaving empty bags and then the next week they had another great time picking it all up. In case you missed it, I've also recounted the story about a particular woman who the boys fought over. One year the two boys I was driving around (one was my son) encountered a woman who chased them with a broom! They got into the car laughing about it and soon became the envy of the pack. Then every year all the boys wanted to do that street. But the district changed the program and we never saw her again. Now those boys are grown and they still talk and laugh about it. I guess she just didn't like kids.

Scoutfish, You seem to be particularly sensitive about the topics of bigfoot and UFO's. Would you like to confess something here? C'mon, you've seen them...haven't you?

Trev, as I remember...according to certain cultures, WE are the 'Great Satan'. I guess I need to reassess?

House: "Everybody lies" The local n'er-do-well: "Honest Sheriff, I paid cash money for them chickens!" I remain fascinated by this topic. I repeat my advice to scouts and students alike, "if you think you can 'get away' with something, you probably shouldn't do it" And once in a while one of them makes a bad decision anyway. Last semester I was involved in a couple of academic dishonesty cases. In both cases I believe these young people were truly repentant. They tearfully admitted that they could not for the life of them remember why they did what they did. But they are going to carry a permanent official mark against them for the rest of their lives. The decision-making process that allowed them to think the potential short-term gain of a better grade on an exam was worth more than a lifetime with that mark on their record is instructive. I think that in most cases, the decision-making process is flawed in two ways. First, it is biased in favor of the potential gain, partly because of the second aspect... Second, in every case I know of (adults included), the person is engaged in self-deceptions to the point of delusions. They 'know' they can 'get away' with it. When I was with the feds, there was a local clerk who had a reputation for being hard-nosed about petty-cash accounts (she had a certain Teutonic sternness that I actually found attractive but that's another topic). Anyway - suddenly and unexpectedly she vanished with (what else?) the petty cash. She was quickly apprehended out in Idaho (where else?) and in a mental state of almost total denial and disbelief that she had done something that stupid. Facing real jail time, loss of career, loss of benefits, loss of just about everything for just a few $thousand. Why? She was lonely and some jerk had convinced her that he loved her and for her to do the deed on the promise of starting fresh somewhere else. That IS delusional! I now think of the 'Perry Mason' rule: men kill for money, women kill for love. Hi Vicki! When young people engage in deceptions, I shake my head and hope they're eligible for PTI. Because I know for a fact that with PTI there's a chance they can recover and have a productive, happy life. Otherwise, their path is not likely to be a good one. And these days there seem to be SO many more opportunities to make those bad decisions. But then you have to ask yourself, when we're all sitting around the campfire spinning yarns before sleep, do we cultivate the ability to lie sometimes, even if only for entertainment? What is a novel anyway? It is fiction. It is not the truth. How about practical jokes? What are those tall tales that we enjoy so much? Paul Bunyan, Santa Clause, all the myths, Satan (sorry, just can't avoid that last one). To me the topic of this thread is a great one. It leads to nearly every aspect of morality and ethics and it also goes deeply into the very definition of who we are in profound ways. I look forward to this.

I think Scoutfish has summarized the logic nicely. And Lisa has demonstrated the best option for those who feel strongly about this. If we stop responding, it will die a natural death. But so far, that fuzzy line that I have in my mind that would require closing the thread hasn't been crossed. I hope that Tuoc Syag will recognize what the latest strong statements are: a challenge to him to supply a well-reasoned and thorough explanation or rebuttal, one that might even change some minds - or at least stimulate some well-reasoned and thoughtful conversation. Absent that, this thread will soon enough whimper into oblivion through inactivity unless someone else wants to keep it alive and carry that conversation.

Tuoc Syag, your response: "My initial question was not about whether or not I am/should be allowed in scouting, as that is an objective rule. Instead, those people who answered Yes to the first question and No to the second seem to agree that being a good role model depends on whether or not I am gay/atheist. I understand that the BSA can discriminate all it wants, but if the core reason is that gays/atheists can't be good role models, I think its reasoning needs a second look." is more along the lines for what I was hoping for in your answer to my questions. Rather than starting this just to poke a stick in someone's eye, you expressed a desire for a 'second look' at the reason for BSA policy to be what it is. However, what I see missing from your post IS the 'second look'. I hope you already understand that most of us have already hashed through this topic and have largely failed to find that 'second look', at least in a substantive way that changes the current policy. What I would hope for in a constructive dialog is that YOU will provide something new for that 'second look' so the rest of us can benefit from your insight. So......????? How about providing your own analysis of the reason for BSA policy to be what it is as well as any flaws in the policy that you see?

Lisa, good call.

Lisa, yes I can agree with what you say. I still challenge him to answer my questions.

I'm trying to determine whether to close this or not. So instead, I ask for Tuoc Syag to answer my two questions: 1) What constructive purpose is in your mind for starting this thread and asking your questions? 2) How do you think starting this thread and asking your questions can possibly achieve that constructive purpose? I don't particularly care if you're a 'troll' or not but if this gets to the point where it is just a quibble about something that cannot be resolved, this very REAL scientist who greatly values open and free discussion is going to seriously consider saving everyone a lot of time. I await your answer.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

We had something similar happen in this unit. The troop and pack and the CO all chipped in (other churches as well) to get them through the tough time until they were on their feet again. Took about a year of periodic assistance. That was in pretty good times so it might take longer today.

Mister T, it's 'Arachnophobia' for fear of spiders and other members of the Arachnida. Sorry, sometimes I just can't resist.

This opinion isn't worth squat because I truly hate popcorn BUT...the comments I have heard amount to: "get rid of the bags and bring back the tins". I'm sensitive to this because the tins can be reused for other purposes (I keep rice, beans, etc. in them - they're superior to the original packaging due to being mouse and roach proof). The bags just go to the dust bin.

I will defend Sasha. I don't know the full details of that event but the drunk driver who crossed the centerline and nearly killed my entire family on their way to school in the morning: had BAC of 0.35%, was on Xanax (not prescribed), was traveling at high speed, had sideswiped a bus a few hundred meters back down the road, did not own the vehicle, vehicle had the minimum insurance, the insurance company knew he was a drunk because a couple of weeks beforehand he had a minor one-car collision involving DUI, they did nothing about that one, while on the other hand: my family was obeying the speed limit and was at no fault whatsoever. When the insurance company met with us, it was because I had notified them of the wreck - it was the first notification they had received. They informed us of the coverage limit and low-balled us at that, tried to get our signatures. The ACTUAL medical and other expenses (not including the vehicle) came to over $100K and were about 8 times the coverage. Our own insurance company covered us through under-insured coverage BUT after our first meeting with them, I wised up and got an attorney. I had had enough of people paying more attention to getting our signature than to trying to do the right thing. In the end, the coverage was adequate. There was no 'profit' to us. My wife is permanently impaired. Daughter still hurts 10 years later. Three years later, we settled out of court. The drunk never saw a day of jailtime. Paid his $200 fine and went to flight school in Oklahoma. His mother bought him another vehicle. If there had been a way to legally reach out and 'touch' him, I would have. Before any of you criticize Sasha or people in similar situations, I advise you to walk a mile in those shoes. It is a different perspective on things. In the future, after dealing with our event, if anything similar happens to me or my family again, one of my first calls will be to my attorney. We narrowly escaped making a huge mistake before...a lesson learned the hard way, and never forgotten.

In my best Guido Sarducci voice, "I blama myself"

Quite a few years ago I was a CM for the pack. Our annual budget was about $700 in round figures. That worked out to about $40 dues for each family but it was completely defrayed if they sold popcorn. The CO paid for leader registrations. PWD and similar events paid for themselves with entry fees. We didn't use the BSA awards but printed our own certificates and awarded actual engraved trophies to all who placed AND the winners for most original design. Trophies didn't cost much more than the overpriced medals and things sold at the scout shop, and they had a replica of a race car on top, plus the place I went to would do the engraving for free for the scouts. Fhe families were glad to pay the entry fee, we had so much fun at those events...everyone did. The budget mostly went toward beads, patches, and similar advancement stuff for the boys. The pack paid for all advancement awards and materials. But I doubt that the budget today is even twice that amount. We did everything on the cheap. We had a home-made PWD track (that was perfectly constructed and adjusted to make both lanes equal in speed), we used the local church camp for family campouts (for free), we had abundant access to local town parks for den meetings (free again), etc. Local services (fire, police, etc.) were always happy to show us around for tours (for free). I guess we did spend some on Blue and Gold but not much, the table cloths were kept clean and re-used. The dens did the table decorations. The church kitchen had all the hardware. The flags were in great shape after over 50 years of use. Like I said, it was pretty low-budget. Today, the pack still sells popcorn but there's no emphasis on that at all. They really rake it in selling stuff at football games and renting the church parking places for the games. Funding was never much of a problem. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

In the thread on 'Nightline - Boy Scout Tragedy...', BrotherhoodWWW made the observation that the result of a settlement in that case might cost us in several ways. One of them was the possibility of even more required training or (horrors) forms. Even if you don't share my contempt for bean counters I suspect most of you see his prognostication as one realistic possible outcome. But in that tragic case, let's assume that the troop had an approved tour permit. Let's assume that the leaders were experienced and fully-trained. Let's assume that every preparation up to the actual outing itself conformed perfectly to BSA requirements - and there's no reason to suspect otherwise from what I've read. The tragedy occurred anyway. What does tightening the grip on requirements accomplish? I suspect little or nothing in the above case, probably elsewhere. But it could produce the effect described by Princess Leia (local units), as she spoke to Tarkin (BSA), "The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers." At some point tightening the requirements becomes incentive to ignore them or leave. The difference is that BSA doesn't have Darth Vader to enforce things.

However, if a crime actually HAS been committed??? And the victim just doesn't know about it???? As mentioned, there isn't enough detail to hang a hat yet.

We just used yellow rope strung between portable home-made stanchions. It worked just fine. But keep in mind that ours was a smaller pack and that not all of the boys were there at the same time.

I agree with John on this. I have a suggestion that might help avoid the bold statement that John started with. I think it would be helpful if the people at National were required periodically to get out and actually DO some real scouting with real troops. Not high adventure (Philmont, etc.) but kind of like that TV show in which the boss takes some menial job in his own business and finds out just what it's really like. Respond to an invitation by a troop for a regular backpack, or a merit badge outing like cycling or hiking, or a week at any ol' summer camp. This would accomplish several things simultaneously. First, it would help put the people at National back in touch with the volunteers and the boys. Second, it would build a better sense of understanding on the part of the volunteers. Third, it would get them off their butts and give them a chance to get fit and maybe remember what it's all supposed to be about. Sounds good all around to me.

I also sympathize with the grief the parents feel, what a tragedy! And I suspect it was preventable but as everyone notes, until more info is out, these conclusions are premature.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)