packsaddle

Thanks Merlyn for that suggestion. That way-back machine is way-cool.

Basementdweller, while I have never had to endure the situation in the title of this thread, I stuck with it (in my case it was to save the pack) when things were dark and looking darker. I succeeded and then stayed on for a couple of years after my son moved on to the troop. Once I had the pack in a stable situation, I moved on to the troop as well. I can't second-guess my decision to pour personal time into other persons' boys. I did it and that's that. And like I have written numerous times, I really like the cub scouts. (I do remember my old scoutmaster from back in the '60s commenting to my father that he had sometimes left his wife in tears in order to keep the troop going. That memory has really stuck with me.) There is no one who can make your decision any better than you can. My only advice is once the decision is made, embrace it and don't look back (as I noted in the spun thread). Life is short and your family needs you more than others do. Don't sweat the small stuff and don't let the turkeys get you down (slogans from a couple of coffee cups will have to do for philosophy today, LOL).

Eamonn, I think that you are the only person who can answer that question to your satisfaction. I led a 'red' unit only to be ignored by the key 3 and everyone else for that matter. I stuck with it only because I couldn't bring myself to be the one under whose watch the unit died. But personally, when I leave something, I tend to really leave it, if you know what I mean. I never burn bridges behind me but I never look back, either. This has caused problems in the past. For example, a girl friend breaks up with me. And then gets really angry that I don't call and try to patch things up. IT's a BREAKUP!! What part of that does she not understand? And coupled with my personal policy: NEVER make threats, and NEVER give warnings...this has occasionally made a few people around me kind of nervous over the years. Which means I suck at politics and am a terrible negotiator, but it works for me. And whatever you decide will work for you too. I am confident of that.

"Here in the South, hitting a woman is still pretty much sacrilege." On the other hand, the top 10 states for murder rates of women killed by men include: AL, NC, TN, TX, AR, MO, SC, and GA (ranked 3rd through 10th). http://www.vpc.org/studies/wmmw2010.pdf Aside from the top two (Nevada and Vermont) we seem to be pretty good at committing that sacrilege. Heck, until recently a conviction for wife-beating in SC got less punishment than cock-fighting.

No

OGE, a mini-version of that is already happening. I am frequently finding research articles which refer to web-based documents. In some cases the citations refer to web sites that no longer exist or work properly. For all practical purposes, it is as if those documents never existed (and since they actually were just a bunch of 101101000111010's, I guess they never did). I agree with your statement about the Declaration of Independence and Gettysburg Address. But Lincoln's claim that the world would 'little note' what was said - certainly seemed to miss the mark. (This message has been edited by packsaddle)

The message I'm getting is that it's probably a good thing these messages are typed.

I may get the question wrong but I interpret your 'why' question to be: Why bother to keep trying to provide this program for the boys? Or something along those lines. If I got the gist of it, my answer is: because if you let one jerk destroy that opportunity for the boys you just let that jerk take control. And you don't really want that. So you handle the jerk. And keep the program available for the boys. Because they're worth it.

I'm still not clear about the specific reasoning behind their anger. Please explain.

"Group presentations might not be da right way at all." I think Beavah is correct. Talk of 'pitches' and 'takes' is what I heard long ago when I was being recruited to sell encyclopedias. There just isn't a way to intrude on a family gathering in this manner and NOT cause ill will among some persons, actually most of them in this area. Put the solicitation on radio ads, mail them to the families, get creative and produce a website that someone actually WANTS to visit and put it there. Take out newspaper ads. But don't force a captive audience to endure a 'pitch' after which someone at the council analyzes the 'take' to see whose 'pitch' was most productive. It might just be me but then, I passed on those encyclopedias and instead worked to exhaustion each day fabricating steel rebars. For some reason, I felt THAT was a more honest way to make money.

Wow, I've never seen violence at any scouting event, at least not an assault (I've seen violence done to food items, LOL). Anyway, the closest I've ever seen was a couple of times when I disqualified cars at the district PWD. Basementdweller, I'm sorry this happened, especially in front of the boys. Sad.

It seems ok for thread fit to me. As for tradition...well...there really isn't one that I know of. I've seen many different ways to handle this. A while back, when I had worked really closely with some of the boys starting as cubs and ending as Eagles, I did make personal gifts to them. But I tried to make it personal and if I didn't know the boy that well, I toned it down a lot. In one case, I surprised one boy by giving him my own Eagle bolo tie. I gave another a hiking staff with medallions of some memorable places. One of the SM's I know makes ornate wooden boxes for their medals, customized with inlays of different woods (he's one of those fanatic wackos in woodworking). Another SM does nothing whatsoever, just a handshake. The Eagle COH is really a family event and if you want to set your mind at ease, give the parents a call and ask them what, if anything, their son might like as a memento. Otherwise, just accepting the invitation and being there to honor his achievement should be sufficient. Relax. Enjoy.

And yet, following on my interpretation of OGE's message, I know that at the right time, for the right young person, the right words from a father or a grandfather can cut a wound so deep that it lasts a lifetime. It might be a kick in the pants but it might also succeed in stifling creativity or initiative, or just dashing the dreams in a needless and gratuitous manner. The reasons for doing it don't matter - for some young persons, it is a terrible, lasting wound.

Kudu, I wish I'd thought of that twist. Point taken. I do appreciate the concept of the 'Religion of the Woods' and I think I understand this in a profound way. John, Indeed. In fact I spent a good long time this afternoon crafting more dreams into plans for the next excursions. Now just need to work to make them happen. Thanks everyone. I think I'm going to let the Woodbadge mystique whimper by...perhaps, however, pay more attention to the Woodbadge Mystic.

Kudu's comment in the parent thread brought back my own memory of taking a 'Creative Problem Solving' course back in the 1970's. Different instructor. I learned a lot more about leadership, however, from the Arbinger Institute and their course. Or, perhaps, after the intervening time I was merely better prepared to receive the message. Anyway, it seems that most of us are well-experienced in outdoor skills regardless of Woodbadge. I have to admit that after reading some of the commentaries in these threads, my initial attraction to Woodbadge years ago has evolved into suspicion and a general thought that it would be wasted on me. But, this unit continues to thrive. They boys are having a great time. They advance, they learn, and they mostly direct themselves. We don't live up to all of Kudu's standards but this isn't a Stepford troop either. I suspect we're similar to a lot of other units. The only things I can think of that I'm missing, not having done Woodbadge, are the ability to argue in these threads authoritatively and...the mystique. So what is the mystique? I sense that there is one but I can't quite describe what it is. Kind of like the Masons. They are about as mysterious to me as the Ku Klux Klan. Not that I'm comparing Woodbadgers to Klan members, no siree. But there is a certain mystique.....

To followup on what TwoCub wrote and also to try to temper BadenP's tendency to stereotype Southerners: just remember that 'Politenessman' or 'Big Brother' or whatever...IS watching you guys play. Nice, nice.

Alamance, as the victim of a similar vintage Duster, slant six, I share your pain. Skeptic, I almost missed this, " So, what does it say about the "male mystique", in that all or almost all these responses are from male scouters?" It says that most women are barely able to turn the key in the ignition. What do you expect?(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Oak Tree, I liked that. Engineer61, I have a couple of very close young ADD friends who fit your description. One of them even WITH ritalin was told by his private school (full of Stepford teachers and children) that his future was probably prison. His parents pulled him and he flourished in the public schools. He went on to graduate with honors in (what else?) mechanical engineering. The other one, also in public school, figured it out in high school and went on to graduate with high honors in (again what else?) electrical engineering and physics (both degrees in 2 1/2 years). He's now at CalTech finishing his PhD in physics. Your last words have a strong ring of truth. In a different set of circumstances, either of them could have lived 'down' to the expectations of judgmental persons.

OGE, that's quite a leap from starting at bondo. But you just described my grandfather. He was a brilliant but very flawed, bitter man. And he died a violent, well-deserved death. I went through a short list of people I've known and I can't find much evidence to dispute your assertion. He had a nasty personality, I have been told, from day one. However, I am reminded of Lee Atwater (to qualify this thread for I&P). He was a despicably nasty political type until he was near death. At that time he seemed to change and apologized for what he had done. Perhaps change is possible for some of us.

We spread the word and leave it up to the individual boys as to whether they attend or not. We attended one as a troop but it was not a good experience. But they do sometimes offer badges that are hard to earn any other way.

Bondo, huh? Look on the bright side. It was probably a lot quieter as a result.

Yeah, the '63 had 'rounder' styling. By '65 there were some serious edges and really boxy styling but nothing like the abominations of '59. Mine had an actual transistor AM radio and wing vent windows for AC! Those were the days! Gasoline for 25 cents a gallon and cars that were deathtraps at 60 mph, but we drove them at 80. A full set of bias ply tires for less than $100 and then burn the rear ones off in one night of testosterone poisoning. I'm trying to remember when I got my first traffic violation...guess some things need to be forgotten, LOL. Edited: Eagledad, are you sure about the '58 F150? Seems like I remember the 150 coming out a long time later - to replace the 100 I think. Yeah, about the minivan...me too. sigh Edited again: I know where there's still an old 442 down off an old road way out of sight on a mountainside where it finally stopped. Full of bullet holes. Already looked. No skeletons. Sigh But I bet that engine could be revived, it's still covered by the hood.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Yeah, with the suicide doors. I borrowed one of those while I was in college to impress the girls. Wasn't necessary, those wild things only wanted one thing.....(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

1965 Ford Fairlane 500 with a 289. Before that I 'borrowed' my father's 1958 F100 4WD. Learned to double-clutch on his old '37 Ford work truck. I had designs on his 1940 Ford coupe but he sold it on a whim when I was still too young to fight for it...for $50. I could just cry. All it needed was a new battery. Edited part: Oooohhh, I get it now. That first car thing is just a 'code'.... My first car WRECK was also in that Fairlane. A guy lost it in a curve and hit me head on. Totaled it. Insurance gave me next to nothing for it so the next one was as cheap as possible, a Plymouth Duster, slant 6. I developed a life-long hatred of Chrysler products because of that car.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

"I find this to be really cheesy." To say the least. Cheesy, crass, tacky...got THAT right! At an Eagle COH? Incredible. We had one DE who wasn't even that stupid and because of him, DE's are pretty much persona non grata at B&G, and any awards ceremony. At an Eagle COH? Forget it. I thought I'd heard of some things but this is incredible.