packsaddle

SeattlePioneer, To answer your question, I was the first Eagle ever for my troop. The troop was at least 20 years old but no one had ever earned the rank of Eagle. I remember well that the attitude of everyone in the troop when I moved up from cubs, including the leadership, was that Eagle was out of reach for those of us who were out of the 'mainstream' or something like that. It was a long time ago. But I was stupid enough not to realize I wasn't supposed to be able to do it so I decided to make it my goal. God and Country as well, another first for the troop. My troop was about as close to the Kudu ideal as I have ever seen personally. Anyway, to finally get around to answering your question, we had no idea what we were supposed to do. So the idea of doing it during the Scout Sunday service just sort of floated to the surface, I think the first person to suggest it was our minister at the time, one of the nicest persons I have ever known. And to this day, the people at that church who are still alive to remember it...do remember it well. Me too.

I agree with the sentiment that SeattlePioneer just wrote about First Class. I would add that I do not diminish ANY rank earned by a boy. All of the ranks are good achievements. I still remember the first gold star my piano teacher gave me long before I was a scout. And I remember my Eagle ceremony - about 5 minutes long as part of a Scout Sunday church service, as I seem to remember.

If you watch the really old newsreel video on skeptics link in the Scouting History thread, you'll see nothing but 'Over' for the neckerchiefs. Looked just fine too.

What wedding?

I agree with OGE. In this unit, the ECOH is entirely left up to the boy and his family. Sometimes we celebrate more than one new Eagle in a single ECOH but we have never awarded anything but the Eagle at an ECOH. I suppose that it is possible for a boy to make such a request but I don't expect ever to see that happen.

As someone who also has received the suggestion to leave and start another organization (or something along those lines), I suggest that such advice is ALSO a sign that someone is running low on their argument. So here is what I think the better approach is: if one person seems to rely on derogatory remarks or sarcasm to make their argument, the other person should respond to the face-value ideas alone and not the emotion. This tends to disarm the remarks and the sarcasm. And it strengthens your argument even more. The cost of this advice was $0.02

Let's see...that means when you were born, pchadbo, I was bumping along in my second car through the mountains of Mexico, south of Oaxaca, with a couple of extremely uninhibited women who befriended me because I could intimidate the local men who kept 'approaching' them (they referred to those men as 'boob- and crotch-grabbers'). But we never had any problems while we were all together....wistfully thinking...man...that was a great trip.

Hey, I thought you ALREADY had a copy of Lenin's autobiography... Just kidding. This is a GREAT link and video. I'm going to show it to the troop. Thanks

Welcome to the forums. I'm curious...where does the name, 'old Blighty', come from? Does this mean you're in Scotland?

Goodie! Another chance to use this quote: "The purpose of religion isn't to bring people together." This quote from TheScout is almost as good as having him here.

The 'Format this Post' tool doesn't work for me either if I am using FireFox. However, if I am using IE there's no problem.

In my experience in matters involving STEM (sensu National Science Foundation, not Exxon Mobil), the emphasis is on quantitative skills in support of mostly physical sciences, engineering, and math (the EM part). The objection I am reading seems to be in regard to the 'T' part which seems inevitably to be interpreted as something to do with semiconductors. I would like to note that there are plenty of opportunities for the EM part of this to be engaged IN THE OUTDOORS. and not in front of a computer screen. I and most of my immediate circle of interactions see the 'T' part of STEM as derived from the EM part and not the other way around. The 'T', in this sense, can also stand for 'Tools' as well as 'Technology'. And while good tools help with the Science, the biggest obstacle is the tool between our ears. If we can't think critically or have disciplined imaginations, then the tools will rule US...not to mention the Chinese and other better-"Prepared" nationalities. There is NOTHING incompatible between the outdoors and the 'S' and the 'EM' parts of STEM.

To answer your question, when you start to compose a new message, look to the left and there is a hot phrase called, 'Format this Post'. I'm looking at it right now. If you hit that it opens a new window in which anything with a hypertext address will convert to a hot link. Or if you know html you can play around a bit with other stuff but don't bother trying to embed images or anything...been there, done that. Then at the end, save and it comes back to this panel including all the html markup stuff. And then, if you're lucky, it will show properly when you send the post.

Heaven forbid that equal access should actually be equal. Oops, did I say that wrong?

And yet I can't find anything about this through Exxon Mobil. Some of the components listed in the BSA program already exist as separate Exxon Mobil programs for all young people. What are the actual requirements for earning these awards?

I noticed the relevance of this thread to the one on 'STEM-NOVA award'. This is because for this new program, "EOM (Exxon Mobile) has generously agreed to fund the development of such a program within Scouting through a special multi-year grant." Does this make Exxon Mobile a customer?

This might be the Act that Lisa mentioned. It was included in the NCLB legislation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_Equal_Access_Act Lisa's points re: PTA and PTO sponsorship make sense. In this area I don't know of a single unit sponsored by a PTA or PTO. Most, if not all, are sponsored by churches. It's been pretty much that way as long as I can remember. Edit: Of course it helps to have a church for every, what, 10-20 people...unlike those heathenous yankees. (This message has been edited by packsaddle)

So....how about those PTA's and PTO's deciding not to sponsor units, for whatever reason...?

NJ has it about right but I admit, I hadn't articulated it the way Beavah did and I see his point. In simple terms, the customer, in my mind, is the person who pays the money and that would fit a view of donors as the customers. I guess on that basis most CO's would be consumers though, unless they pay more than they do around here (which is practically nothing other than collecting registration fees - and those come from the families). But as NJ points out, the intended beneficiaries are (I hope) the boys and perhaps broader society as a result. I, like NJ, have encountered administrative types who seem to have a personal sense of entitlement as if they are the customers. This is not confined to BSA. It is my belief that if enough of an administrative unit adopts this attitude, the real customers will turn away and the unit will fail. When United Way first cut back and then terminated support for BSA here and there, around these parts I heard outrage and indignance which was almost the perfect caricature (according to talk shows) of the ungrateful welfare recipient who has just been taken off assistance. I've also sensed this at more than one shameless solicitation for FOS at B&G celebrations. It is at times like those that I've wondered about answers to those questions I asked at first. But Beavah's clarification raised another interesting thought in my mind: if BSA does view donors and those CO's which pay the most as the customers, perhaps even with some arrangement of priority, then have we described a program that, essentially, can be bought by the highest donor? Interesting.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

In the parent thread, Beavah made a statement about poor treatment of the customers and (correct me if I'm wrong, Beavah) I think he meant that the boys and the families are the customers. Now I tend to agree with this, assuming I'm correct about his statement. However, I not so certain that if Beavah is correct about the way BSA operates in his post, that BSA has the same 'customer' in mind. I am reminded of a recent large organization with which I was involved, in which the administrative types stated explicitly that THEY were the customer. Alternatively, it could also be that there are customers and then there are CUSTOMERS, meaning that like it is in economic transactions, certain groups are treated with greater care than others. So what do you think? Who is the customer supposed to be? Who do you think IS the customer as perceived by BSA? Alternatively, why is the customer treated poorly, as Beavah noted?

I guess I too would need to be certain that I hadn't made a mistake if no one 'owned up' to the deed. I keep an attitude that with boys, I'm dealing with the moral equivalent of raccoons so I watch them carefully. And I have a pretty good sense of when someone is lying to me or concealing something...women tend to hate that about me...but it usually works with the boys. Yes, once in a while someone's candy bar goes missing. But as for soda, we don't ever use it or bring it along on trips, for any reason. So I guess we dodged that bullet.

1. The sounds of my loved ones sleeping peacefully. 2. The smile on my grandchild when I arrive to visit. 3. Reading to my grandchild and enjoying every new adventure and discovery. 4. Listening to my daughter argue with her mother and understanding how much alike they are (but if I EVER say this out loud I really pay for it). 5. SAYING it out loud and paying for it. 6. Backpacking alone in some remote place where I cannot hear a highway or another person. 7. Knowing that between me and civilization stand only my own skills and wits against the risk of injury or death. 8. Watching microscopic dramas unfold in microscopic worlds through a microscope. 9. The look of new awareness and then shock as I destroy the illusions of students. 10. Sitting contentedly around a campfire with contented parents as their cubs romp over fields and lake and stream and forest, making sounds of joy and discovery. 11. My arrival, every time, as the plane approaches that wonderfully magical island of high mountains, waterfalls, cool streams, and welcoming people in the Caribbean..and I feel the weight of everything else lift as I enter paradise on this Earth. 12. The quiet, distant look on my students' faces as we wait to fly away from that paradise, as if the experience had been a wonderful dream...wishing to continue, hoping to return...

In 1960 or '61, I remember the first time I ever saw a Dutch oven. It was a novelty which the scoutmaster bought in order to try it out. And our troop had quite a time figuring out how to use it on an open fire. I personally cremated many batches of baked beans using that thing and the aura and mystery of those times rank right up there with the rapture. Needless to say, we never got another one while I was a boy. Today, this unit has at least 5 cast iron ones and I don't know how many aluminum. Moreover, the boys learn quickly how to use them. We also sometimes use the old Coleman stoves but I guess we're still stuck in the past and don't micro-manage the storage of fuel, etc. But mostly, we cook with wood over an open fire...with an occasional bag of charcoal for special occasions. Never had an injury. Never set the forest on fire. Never had any close calls with tents or anything, OK a few singed boots on cold nights, LOL. If they try to tighten up on this stuff, we're just going to ignore it. Local option remains alive around here - just below the radar.

....running sounds....Hi, just darting in to respond: "but she seems to drink the Kool-aid better than I." C'mon, it was FLAVOR AID, not KoolAid. Please!!!!....sounds of running away from this thread again....

"Now, suppose I decide to write a thread saying that water was in fact, so dry, it pulled moisture out of your skin by extreme osmosis..." Of course precisely the above happens all the time in nature, in both directions, as I suspect you already know. The perception of 'wet' is another matter. Thing is, this is an idea that CAN be investigated by different people using the same methods of analysis and observation and if done correctly, they WILL get the same answer and agree. In this case it is not merely a matter of perception. An ignorant or careless person may think something else but it will not be correct, nor will it be reality even for themselves. They will merely be wrong.