packsaddle

So....is anyone still wondering about the limited successes of our 'intelligence' services?

At least yours was merely boring. We had one that was downright toxic. That was the end of subjecting families to DE speeches.

Welcome to the forums. One of you has a name that is longer than I want to write so I won't. I'll just add this: I have long maintained a personal policy that has served me well: I never make threats. I consider threats to be something made by people who are cowards and are rarely likely to follow through. I have mostly been right. Also, I never give warnings. They are most often viewed as threats and give your adversary an undeserved piece of information. Just decide what your course of action is and then do it. Don't posture or threaten or pluff up your feathers to make yourself look larger than you really are. Just take action and then get on with life. Don't even look back to see if the bridge is on fire or if there are wounded on the beach. It doesn't matter.

Since I'm the one who summoned this demon I'll add that I just loooove the moniker!

I guess I can blame myself. Maybe I should have specified 'avowed' birthers in the subject line. But I didn't. And just like those other people who might be reluctant to 'avow', we'll never know for sure how many 'closet' birthers there are, will we? However, unlike those others of the 'unavowed', what's the problem with taking that bold stand with regard to the President's nationality? Either you accept the 'short form' certificate or you don't. If you accept it then I guess like some of the rest of us, we take it on faith that the document is sufficient, time to move on. If someone questions whether the 'short form' is sufficient, I wonder why they don't just go ahead and take that bold stance? What is wrong with stating out loud...that which you honestly think? I get called all sorts of names and I'm OK with that. Right here in these forums I've been associated with Che Guevara, communists, outright called homosexual and asked to resign, I've been...ok...those were accurate...but you get the point. I'm not bleeding. I'm still about to enjoy a wonderful lunch with friends. It's no big deal to get labeled with some name. Is there some desire NOT to be associated with certain persons who DO claim to be 'birthers'? What happened to 'Brave' in the Scout Law? I recognize that 'decisive' is not in the Scout Law. Perhaps we're still trying to decide? At any rate, I thought Jan Brewer's veto was interesting and wanted to read the competing thoughts on the subject. Thanks.

JoeBob, mine was printed 27 years after I was born. Guess I'm suspect. I checked. If I apply for a copy of the 'long form', guess what I'm going to get? A printed form using the data from a computer file, stamped 'printed in 2011'. My mother may have been correct after all. I used to say (before DNA technology spoiled everything) that paternity is always in doubt. I suppose I could now switch to birthplace. We never really know for sure, do we?

Yeah, I remember this awful exercise. Birthdays were wrong, shuffled among the boys. We had scouts from other troops and they had some of ours. Boys were listed who had 'graduated' as long as 6 years earlier. Others just went away into the ether. I sometimes think about these things when some people make a big deal about certain birth records.

This, actually, is my field. I also am a registered MB counselor for this one. If the boy is working in a more-or-less open area with grasses, for example, as mine often do, he is most likely NOT going to be able to identify everything to species. Even good botanists have to work hard to get to that level and if fruiting structures are absent it might be impossible. What he CAN do is recognize that one type of plant is a different species even if he can't put a scientific name on it. I can't tell you how many times I and others in the field have collected a specimen and then designated those populations as 'Sp. 1', 'Sp. 2', etc. The point of the exercise is not necessarily taxonomy but rather the relative abundance of different populations in the community. Without identifying a single species as anything other than a notation, it is possible to calculate abundances, population densities, areas of coverage, diversity indices, etc., most of which, fortunately, are not required for this MB. For grasses which are notoriously difficult to separate into individual plants, the biodiversity could be the number of species in the plot area. The population density could use area of coverage as a surrogate for numbers of individuals. Even ecologists argue about the best way to do this. If the plot is in a brushy or wooded area, the identifications are easier because you're most likely working with more dicots and woody plants. In which case you can count the stems coming out of the ground as individuals (but even this is sketchy when working with plants like honeysuckle or blackberries). Remember the object of this exercise is to cultivate an appreciation for biodiversity, perhaps an interest in identification, and also an appreciation for the differences in habitats and land uses, not to mention the way we quantify these things. Don't beat him up with taxonomic keys that he won't master in the course of a merit badge anyway..it isn't the point. Use the Cub Scout motto and then see if his report demonstrates that he has 'gotten' the point. Use whatever guides seem good for your area (which you haven't mentioned...they might be very different for different areas) and then just make the best of it. I don't know what state you're in but often the natural resource departments for the state, or perhaps the agricultural extension service will have guides that are reasonably good and usually free. Good Luck Edit: From your moniker, I'm guessing you're in North Carolina. Don't pick up a copy of Radford, it is only going to bewilder everyone. You need to spend a huge amount of time to master that excellent reference. Here is a useful place to begin and a phone call to the herbarium will likely lead you to the most appropriate manuals to use. Hope this helps: http://cals.ncsu.edu/plantbiology/ncsc/type_links.htm (This message has been edited by packsaddle)

According to what I read of her quote, she DIDN'T want to place that decision in the hands of a "single possibly partisan person." So that, among other things, was the reason she vetoed it. I guess I don't have a long form certificate. When I checked, neither does any member of my family. None of us ever received anything other than the 'short form'. Oh well.... Interestingly, NOT A SINGLE PERSON born in Arizona after 1997 has one either. They did away with the long forms and keep all their records in digital format only. Edit: Yikes! Other states went 'paperless' as well. We dodged a bullet! We could have ended up with NO candidates for office. H'mmmm...wait a minute....thinking....hey, we NEED that law!!(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Vol, the SSN proves nothing. Lots of people who immigrated to the US and are thus not allowed as a presidential candidate have SSN's. Non-citizens can get social security numbers. It proves nothing. Have you READ the legislation? I mean really...a certificate of circumcision? Come ONNN! BS-87, I am asking, as I mentioned in the OP, if there ARE any forum members who ARE 'birthers'? If debate is of interest that is good too. I have no expectation that debating someone who is a 'birther' is going to be any more successful than debating someone who is a young-earth creationist. I'm just curious to see if anyone is willing to make the claim. What I WOULD find even more interesting is if someone who IS, say, sympathetic to the 'birther' idea would state 1) that they could be persuaded by evidence, and 2) what kind of evidence it would take to persuade them.

JoeBob, do you claim to be a 'birther'? Would you like to see Obama's birth certificate? FactCheck has hi res photos of the actual document which they actually held in their hands here: http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html These are really nice photos. What is the difference between this certificate and a 'long form' certificate? I have my birth certificate and it (as well as those of my wife and children - three different states) is even smaller and shorter than Obama's. Does this place us in doubt as well? They worked well enough for every OTHER time we had to prove our citizenship.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

AlFansome, yep. Those are definitely OUT there. Didn't Michael Moore try to use this same line of reasoning to collect some slaves in Mississippi a few years back? I can't remember exactly what he did but I do remember it involved a bunch of black guys and a sheriff who wasn't very amused.

Interesting, that's something I never wondered about before Kudu said something. How big is the BSA budget at the national level? Anyone have some numbers? If we included all the councils as well? Just curious.

"Yah, I like Blancmange's solution" Hey! I made that suggestion at 0929 this morning. If credit is handed out for spamming the SE with junk YP reports I want some of it. Edit: Oops, just noticed the pejorative way that Twocub used the term, 'wack-job uncle'. As one of those wack-job uncles, it is my DUTY to annoy the heck out of my nieces and nephews by driving with my left turn signal on, singing really bad old songs, etc. And no one, least of all my nieces and nephews, is going to stop me. ..how much is that doggie in the window? Arf Arf, the one with the wag-el-y ta-a-a-a-ail?(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Look fellas, I didn't want to scare them off. I am asking for them to present themselves and maybe even their well-reasoned thoughts to back their opinions. Besides, my mother sometimes openly expressed the belief that aliens had abducted her son and put me in his place. I was and remain at a loss to prove otherwise. I liken this to my fascination with some racist acquaintances from a while back. These were far worse than the ones in my old Presbyterian church. They remained convinced, privately, that any taint of non-Aryan genetic material automatically doomed the carrier to poor-quality protoplasm (no lie, they actually said this stuff..quietly). But they were increasingly afraid to express these ideas out loud and preferred to quietly keep the ideas alive by privately teaching their children and any others around to listen. Thing is, they're going to keep those ideas alive a lot longer that way and that is why I'd rather have them express themselves openly and honestly so that reasonable people can respond in a way that the children can hear. It took courage for Republican Rep. Carl Seel to sponsor this legislation and that is about as open as it gets. I would like for others who agree to show equal courage. You guys did give me a bit of a scare though. When I glanced and saw the responses I thought, "Holy Toledo! There are LOTS of birthers out there!" But really, so far it looks like only one person and that looks more like 'latent birther tendencies' or something.

Really, I read the news that Republican governor Jan Brewer of Arizona has vetoed the 'Birther Bill' as well as the 'Guns on Campus' bill and I began to wonder...are there any forum members who are 'birthers'? To clarify, are there any forum members who believe that President Obama has either failed to prove his citizenship or believes that he actually is NOT a citizen? Anyway, here's the link to Arizona's 'Birther' bill. I'm not sure where the heck I put MY circumcision certificate... http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/50leg/1r/bills/hb2177s.pdf

Sorry, I like mummies and I can sleep anytime, anywhere. Bugs the heck out of my wife, I can even go to sleep in the middle of one of her tirades if I decide to (I mean it REALLY gets her goat when I do that, heh, heh!). So I can't relate. Sorry My suggestion, if you only have one 'heater child', take some dogs along too.

Interesting. The lines being drawn are getting clearer. On one hand, advocates of allowing judgment on each situation locally. On the other hand, strict interpretation of the 'letter' of the policy. A mix of interpretations and opinions based on experience. What would be REALLY interesting is for everyone to take the second approach and report ALL infractions in accordance to the 'letter'. The SE would, I suspect, quickly see the need for the 'letter' to be worded differently. Or else an opportunity to create an even bigger bureaucracy to handle all the reports. Wouldn't THAT be just great!

momof2cubs, I have a 'Y' chromosome and have produced offspring. You can wonder about the rest.

Not too long after my wife and I moved into the gingerbread house, we resolved always to keep them in cages and fatten them up before we eat them...yum! Hansel was good but Gretel was just deeelicious! But about that "we got on like a house on fire" euphemism: Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Yeah, I normally try to allow all debate and I certainly NEVER 'ignore' a user. So my instinct is to try to get things back on track if possible. Sometimes there's a special 'chemistry' at work...I'm reminded of some of my exchanges with Rooster7...so I try a friendly reminder before something more drastic. Besides, we're only supposed to 'get mad' over in I&P, right? At least that's where I see most of the flying monkeys unleashed. Edited to add: Ending this is easy. All we have to do is NOTHING. In 24 hours it goes away.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

As a rule there should be no 'one-on-one' contacts between adults and boys. This is a guideline to avoid risky situations so in the case where the SM and the boy's parents are good trusting friends and (this is speculation) they may have communicated about this mode of transportation....if nothing happened I would consider it a minor thing. It would have been better if a second boy had been in the vehicle. If you are concerned, refer to the Guide to Safe Scouting and YP guidelines and feel free to ask the SM how familiar he is with it. Try to keep it friendly and it could be a constructive conversation. My humble opinion...one of many.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

I think I understand your point but I can't say whether you're thinking like OGE. What I CAN say is that your analogy just made me really hungry. Gotta go....

I was driving to work one morning and I saw a young man on the side of the road, facing another young man across the street, he was in 'that' posture. I slowed because I was suspicious of what was about to happen. In my mirror I saw one of them rip his shirt off (why do they do that?) and the two of them, like fighting cocks, rushed each other, meeting on the side of the road. I stopped and began dialing 911 on my cell phone. The fight lasted about 10 seconds and one retreated to a house. The deputy I spoke to took my information and suggested that I NOT try to intervene. I later learned that one of the young men had returned...with a golf club...and had nearly killed the other. As I survey this last exchange, I see those hackles up, roosters circling ready to fly at each other. Because I am able to control neither your emotions nor evidently your better judgment, and evidently the application of scout spirit is failing, I can merely promise that if such an invitation to join in a contest begins here, I will end it. So take it offline if you must. Neither of you are adding to the topic. Alternatively, a virtual handshake and apologies, followed by a return to topic would be nice. I mean, REALLY, over a topic like EDGE????? Good grief! You guys are better than this.

Welcome to the forums flyerscout123. You'll get many more responses to your situation but I guess I'm one of the first to the trough. First, when anyone asks a rhetorical question along the lines, "What's the difference...???", this is an opportunity for you to educate them about the difference. I'll list a few things: 1. fish live in water and most of us don't use firearms to catch them. 2. that firearm aspect of hunting (or even bow and arrow) poses a problem for most activities in scouting. There is a set of regulations called the Guide to Safe Scouting that describes how to keep it safe and even lists some prohibited activities, hunting being among them. 3. as you might already suspect and depending on where you are, your chances of catching a fish with hook and line are probably greater than being able to snare a rabbit or squirrel or opossum or skunk..although if you can find a pile of garbage the skunk might come to you. 4. In most ecosystems, there is a far greater biomass of plants that support much smaller biomass of animals. Therefore, it is often more efficient to catch those slow-moving, defenseless plants (I guess roadkill could substitute). Anyway, those are just a few thoughts that come to mind. In my area recently, there have been two novices who got themselves lost for a few days. Survival in each case depended more on being able to stay warm and dry and to find something safe to drink than being able to kill, cook, and eat a marauding frog or something. In this unit, we tend to pay attention to things that will harm us most quickly. For most of us, this means we can rely on an ample supply of stored fat for a few days if we need to. But we will need to stay warm and dry and we will need to have some water to drink. Firemaking, shelter construction, things like that seem more important than a deadly aim. See....that's what happens when you ask a rhetorical question. You get a long answer. Welcome to the forums.