packsaddle

So, I'm curious. What if Vicki doesn't have any casings, just the residue. What happens to her?

"Anytime a group is identified with a crime, some of damage is transferred to the group." I guess it is sadly true that prejudice is inevitable. The irony is that anyone who transfers the lack of virtue of one person's words or act of prejudice to a group...is also employing the same thinking error.

I agree with Calico regarding the soft drink/electroyte issue. Hyponatremia is also sometimes referred to as water intoxication (it isn't really intoxication but rather loss of sodium). Here's a link from a sports medicine site: http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/hydrationandfluid/a/Hyponatremia.htm I have actually had this happen to me on summer backpack trips, too much clean water, not enough replacement electroytes for those lost through sweat. The symptoms are unpleasant but it only takes 20 minutes or so to feel them pass once you've started drinking something that replaces the loss.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

This probably overlaps the idea of 'going it alone' as well - but if our pleas to the council fall on deaf ears, then two options still exist. 1) The SM can forbid boys from taking certain MBs at camp or 2) (and this my preference but I've been unsuccessful at convincing the unit so far) stop going to summer camp. Take a cue from Kudu and take your unit on a REAL week of camping. Then have the boys work on merit badges the way they're supposed to...on their own.

Be Prepared, I always say. HEY!!!!! That would make a great motto! Some kind of outdoor youth organization could even adopt it as their motto! What a great idea!

So...do you think this puts some tarnish on the 'reputation' or 'aura' of the Eagle? The alleged prejudice of this young man does not diminish the personal achievement and value of the rank for any other individual Eagle. Only they as individuals may do that to themselves. My own achievement, many years ago as a young man, am not damaged by any action that this young man might decide to take. Such damage is only in the eyes of those who see a false aura surrounding Eagle, one that to me is merely an illusion in their minds. I do agree regarding the lack of virtue of his alleged viewpoint. But if you let this kind of thing become attached to or affect a rank that is individually earned and individually lived, you are guilty of the same kind of association (albeit not as offensive) as he engages in.

Heck for that matter, eat the mold. Where's chefy when we need him?

We have a planetarium and some nice telescopes nearby so our resources might be better than some. However, I try to get them interested in this kind of thing while discussing celestial navigation. Most of them have never heard of the plane of the ecliptic, how to find it, or what it means in terms of season or latitude. The ones who are mature enough to grasp the significance quickly extend this to the other objects and that's where I send them on to the real astronomers. BTW, I am continually disheartened by the majority of them who for some reason cling to the idea that the seasons have something to do with earth's varying distance from the sun. Some ideas are hard to kill.

OK, that was my mischief for the day..back to topic. So...let's ponder...what are the potential motivations for a council to: 1) staff a camp with young, inexperienced MB counselors, 2) fail to hold these 'classes' to the actual BSA requirements, 3) turn a 'blind eye' to this stuff when it is brought to their attention? And now, what measures would correct the situation? For me the answer to #1 is 'money'. They're cheap. Is it possible that the council actually doesn't have the money to run the camp properly? The councils I see have some highly paid pros in some very expensive real estate. Money doesn't seem to be the problem...unless...they are trying to SAVE money to pay for those things by scrimping on the camp. Is this possible? If this has an element of truth then the rest of it falls out logically. They don't care. I submit that the way to solve this is to have the camps on a separate budget from the council and then to charge the actual costs for going to it. Then if the customers are willing to pay for a superior product, they can demand it or go to a competitor who does provide the superior product. As it is the subsidies make these camps almost like entitlement programs. Do you really expect quality when you're paying practically nothing? So, I'm of the opinion that since that separate budget thing isn't going to happen and that competition thing probably isn't going to happen either, troops ought to take a hard look at Kudu's web site and consider a week doing some real scouting instead. Or maybe one of those real wilderness weeks somewhere, you know, in the woods. Wow, I LIKE this idea.

"As my wife says, figures never lie, but they will confess to anything if you torture them enough." Sounds more like the philosophy my wife has for dealing with her husband (aka 'figures'). But once in a while I have to admit, she's right. You know..rare events occur with a probability of 1!

Horizon, I think I was 15 years old...but I guess I've must have missed the tone of the conversation somehow - that happens a lot. If you let the air clear a little, I hope you'll realize that 'hitting back' rarely is constructive. I know, I am as guilty as anyone when it comes to reacting badly...my buttons are just different I guess. Anyway, if you take an objective look at the statement, "Bluntly, someone who thinks that a 13 year old Eagle can't handle it or is not ready is probably adding to the requirements in a variety ways in their unit." I hope you'll see the irony in it. Try to let things roll off your back if you can. One Eagle to another.

Horizon, answering for myself: 'yes' to the first question and 'no' to the second, the way you put it. Except I HAVE come across parents who would have changed the 'no' to a 'yes' if you had asked about them in the right way for the second question. But I'm not sure what your point is.

This just in: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43859711/ns/us_news-life/ Obama has just certified the end of the DADT military policy.

Yeah, that's the way I remember it too. But look on the bright side, someday we'll be dead and today's version will be those memories. Have a nice day!

"How many whites left scouting in 1974 due to integration?" should read: How many racists left scouting in 1974 due to integration? Answer: Probably not many. And some are still here, just quietly perpetuating their poison to those whom they think are sympathetic. And if the civil rights example is a predictor, BSA will lag by about a decade behind whatever progress the country decides to make. Alternatively, if a decline in enrollment back then really can be explained by the departure of racists, then the prediction of further decline with allowance of gay leaders might be accurate. But I keep trying to bring a modicum of reality to these threads: there already ARE gay leaders - you just don't know who they are - it's an unavoidable outcome of current policy.

You can't find something to do in Minnesota? C'mon....

"...arguments against women's right to vote" A very long time ago I was a deputy registrar. During one election I overheard this comment by one of my new registrants as she was informed that she did not HAVE to have her husband in the voting booth with her, "But if he's not there with me...how am I supposed to know who to vote for?" Fascinating. I think Oak Tree is about right, at least for what I observe here. People have left scouting in small numbers over the issue of prejudice. But many, many more merely turn away and are never even noticed as a loss. Local option is almost inevitable. It just might take some time to get all the way there.

Oak Tree, there are a couple more possibilities that perhaps we could consider. One possibility is that the existing programs, in whatever form they exist now, are allowed to remain what they are, perhaps encouraged, by BSA. It is possible that the 'aura' toward Eagle and the 'Eagle Mill' idea are the outcome of a desire by BSA to achieve greater numbers. The emphasis on the rank of Eagle certainly does bring greater public awareness and perhaps greater public esteem to the program. To inexperienced persons, as noted in earlier posts, this would naturally lead to the emphasis and to programs where the characteristics seem to fit those of the stereotype. Another related possibility is that the implicit allowance of a 'local option' approach by BSA, again with the goal of making people happy and boosting numbers, naturally lends itself to a situation where different units pursue their own different programs. In that case, human tendencies alone, combined with competition between units for the boys, could produce the same outcome as the first possibility. In both cases, adults whose interest is honed by whatever they collectively choose (including the top rank) and untempered by a deeper understanding of it, drive the units to whatever fate their programs meet. If BSA does nothing to 'correct' this variability, the things we are wringing our hands over are almost inevitable. And, I add, as long as BSA continues to allow this implicitly, it is also an implicit endorsement of 'local option'. It could be that THAT is the real direction things are moving toward. I suggest that unless there is a strong 'crackdown' and attempt at control by BSA, it is virtually unstoppable.

Shortridge has some interesting thoughts and I am sympathetic to some of them. There does seem to be some kind of 'aura' about attaining Eagle. I think things might have changed over the years. Back in the early 60s when I earned Eagle, my ceremony took about 5 minutes as part of a regular church service for my church. That was it. I have always viewed the achievement as something very personal. I don't 'wear it on my sleeve' (I do have that knot, one of only two that I wear on the uniform). I don't expect any kind of recognition from anyone because of it. The only recognition I expect is my personal knowledge and satisfaction at having achieved a goal that I set for myself a long time ago. When I am asked to give the 'charge' I always delete that awful "marked man" stuff. I consider it harsh, hollow, and really...incorrect. The 'mark' evidently has not deterred persons who are "always an Eagle" from doing some dreadful things. And even then, those individuals suffer whatever humiliation and shame they feel - and somehow betraying the Eagle rank probably is not very important to them. It evidently IS important, in an almost perverse way, to those of us who think Eagle is so very special. And that is why I am sympathetic to Shortridge's comments. It isn't necessarily a function of what each person who attains Eagle feels, but rather some kind of 'aura' that the rest of the people attach to it. And when an Eagle shows feet of clay, the tsk-tsking is almost audible. Basement is right. The mills are driven by adults. Remove that external (and I think false) 'aura' and personal achievement and accomplishment will freely return.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

"In my area, scouting has lost membership because many feel that scouting is too liberal." OK, I know I haven't really heard everything but this is getting toward the edge. If BSA policy was more inclusive we would definitely pick up membership after people had some time to actually start to believe it.

This goes to the concept of removing temptation but I would make sure that any sprays are NOT in aerosol cans. The temptation of making 'flame throwers' is often too great to resist. (this is applies to the boys too ) I suspect that your list might need to be customized depending on the specific camp and climate. High elevation works well for night temperatures at least, even in the heat of summer, but this summer...wow. Early June would have been much less challenge.

Mea culpa Epalmer, my apologies. This is the first time ever that when I deleted a duplicate post, it deleted BOTH of them. I have no idea why it didn't work the way it was supposed to but there is no way to recover. Please repost if you can and accept my apology. Packsaddle

This CO is divided on this issue. Used to be a non-issue.

"Might just be me, but that feels really slimy." Me too. However, it seems to be a robust component of our 'time-management' culture. The ethic taught by the 'double dipping' approach is that you can get out of having to do more work by lining things up in a way that creates the maximum overlap and that this is good. This IS a good thing if you're designing an assembly line to manufacture thingamajigs in the most efficient manner. Do the words, 'Eagle mill' come to anyone's mind? Such optimization naturally leads to the desire to have a single MBC cover multiple similar MB's so that all he has to do is cross-reference what was done before to eliminate the need to do it this time. I will tell you this, in MY classroom it is called 'cheating'. If I make a writing assignment, with the instruction to create a new and original response, and detect that it was merely plagiarized from a previous assignment, my reaction does not adhere to the Scout Law. (yes, we have the tools to detect such things)

"(when's the last time you tried to force a willful 15-16-17 year old to NOT do something? How'd that work out for you?" Covering the period 2003-2006, roughly. It worked out nicely. I do recognize that I have resources available that aren't necessarily available to everyone. Cost: about $50-100K per year overall. I try not to think about that.