packsaddle

This web site is useful for this topic: http://www.nraila.org/issues/factsheets/read.aspx?id=174&issue=021 The map is really useful. When I was a boy I hunted all around my home. There was plenty of open land and woods. I often wondered why it was legal to fish on Sunday but not hunt. It's still allowed only in limited cases. Later when I asked about the reasons, I got a jumble of answers ranging from religious sensitivities to 'courtesy' issues, I always assumed it had to do with noise. No one could tell me why fishing was exceptional - that seemed like it ought to be as objectionable at least on the basis of religious sensibiliities. Anyway, I never heard a suggestion that there was a safety issue, at least not one that applied more to Sunday than other days.

In sympathy to Fscouter (and also in response to that embarrassing display in the thread on parents attending OA ceremonies) I have to note that perhaps this could be the time that we could all just recognize that it is OK to have different views on these topics. We could pretend that we're actually TOGETHER at a campfire. We could renew a spirit of friendship and perhaps use the scout law to provide a model that others could follow. We could change the tone of public discourse, bring civility back to politics. The effect could spread to the whole nation and then to other countries. 'Occupy' and protest would no longer be needed. Conflicts could be settled peacefully. The planet could rest with all people working peacefully together for the good of all.... Naaaaahhhhhhh! back to the thread.

Trevorum, doth ye protest too much?

Gad! In my best Sarducci impression, "I blama myself."(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Interesting. I may have some common ground with SeattlePioneer on this. But just to make sure, SP, please clue me in as to what you think the "catechism of environmentalism commonly taught in public schools" is. I just want to cross-check.

Political junkie, huh? Wonder where he gets that, lol?! Sounds like you have it figured about right. Maybe he just wants to REALLY make sure he's doing it on his own with no push from you. I wish him luck. You too!

So....were you privately and quietly hoping, just a little, that the answer would be 'no'? How about son?

Lisa, since it's Beavah's thread and he's the one who charged off on this topic, I think you're ok with the topic branch. Besides, it's an I&P topic which usually means more liberties being taken and resulting thread 'evolution' [not to mention the consequence of resulting thread longevity due to evolving topic]. Anyway, I share your feelings on this topic. Here's the link again in 'hot' form. It's worth a look:http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/06/nyregion/small-classes-unimportant-to-bloomberg-gotham.html?_r=1&ref=educationThere are similar ideas being promoted almost without opposition in this region as well. There are essentially no unions in this region. Period. Class sizes are increasing. Teachers are quitting and being laid off. Salaries are flat (and minimal). The politics are strictly red at all government levels. I argue that the market is working perfectly. The people are demanding poor quality through their unwillingness to pay for a better product and they are getting it. Welcome to the third world of the South. And proud of it!

Back when I was CM I was tickled to just get interested den leaders in the first place. I mostly let them do their own thing and the dens worked just fine. Each month I gave them the monthly theme and they were free to pursue it if they liked. If they had a better idea I welcomed those. And I always, always asked if there was anything I could do to help them out. I never tried to TELL them something but rather asked how they were doing, how they did it, what were the problems, if any that they had encountered, etc. I was lucky enough to have some really good, creative den leaders so I probably didn't encounter the problems you have but FWIW that was my experience. All of my problems were related to an un-supportive CO, DE, etc. We were on our own and once we realized that and operated accordingly, we did fine.

OK, finished with experiment. Beavah seems to be taking some heat here so I'll follow up on some of his observations. I too saw the really bad days in the 1950s and I was in the South. I saw and experienced that discrimination so I know it well, first hand. While I see his point about setting limits based on age, that hardly attains the same status of the intimidation and violence I observed directed toward black people. I made careful mental notes about who perpetrated that intimidation and violence. Today they label themselves as 'conservative'. At the same time, at the age of 16 I was a school bus driver. I transported two routes every morning and again in the afternoon, driving the elementary kids to school really early and then the high school kids to my high school. I drove a full-sized bus with a manual transmission that you had to double-clutch. The safety record at that time was as good as it is today with 'adult' drivers. Yes, there were lapses of judgment. Same as today. The selection process was careful and the test was hard. Those of us who passed were completely proficient and even today I would have been as confident with us as drivers as I am with today's drivers. So I'm with Beavah on the ATV thing as far as who can operate or teach the skills. On the other hand, I'm somewhat of a neo-Luddite. I wish the concept of a PWC still elicited an image of a canoe. A canoe is far more versatile than a PWC, far more fun, far more compatible with the kinds of outdoor activities and skills that I think scouting is about. But like I just wrote (and I know I'm in a minority opinion) I just have a personal, perhaps sentimental, tendency to reject things like PWCs in favor of the far-more-romantic relationship that can be formed with a canoe. As far as ATVs go, I still ride an enduro from time to time. The only difference is that you don't need much skill or a sense of balance for an ATV.

I was in school in The South. Hate was finding open public acceptance although it was still a ways off from its zenith. I will never forget when the announcement went out over the intercom, one of my classmates, a friend of sorts, surprised me when he said - and I will never ever forget this - "...laughing out loud...What do you know, someone finally bumped off old Kennedy!". He wasn't alone in this feeling, at least among white people. They eventually, like Johnson predicted a little while later, became known as Republicans. The hate still remains and it still has its voice...here in The South. It is a darkness of such impenetrable depth, most cannot imagine.

I've been trying to think of what was the greatest success. Oddly, the comment by 83Eagle and response by Basementdweller brought one to mind. I think my greatest success was back when I was CM. I took over the pack on its last legs and it seemed like no-one cared, not the CO, not the DE, no-one other than a few loyal families. Those were the cards I was dealt so I stopped wasting time with roundtables, stopped paying any attention to the DE or his 'plans' or deadlines and started working as if we were on our own. It worked. I pre-empted the 'normal' roundup with my own roundup at the schools. I 'advertised' by making our program very visible in the community. And I shamed the CO congregation by using scriptures to make my points. I wasn't popular in the establishment but hey, that was no different from where I had been placed anyway, everything was simply 'on the table' now. So, we started having more ambitious pack events. We expanded PWD (we owned the track and began to use it at OUR convenience) to include weeks of preparation and numerous weekends of shared construction and 'tune-ups'. This helped the single-parent families immensely (word got out and we had more join). We expanded the family campouts and I convinced the troop that if they wanted to survive, they needed to get the interest of the boys in the pack. So the troop started planning a campout the same weekend as ours and they would camp across the lake from the pack. The cubs were invited to visit the scouts over the weekend to see how they camped, what they did for activities, etc. On Saturday afternoon, I took all of them for a hike to the top of the mountain. [side story: I always took snacks...salsa-flavored cheese crackers, etc. the scouts predictably would start bugging me to share and I would....at the top of the mountain. then they'd start asking if I had anything to drink. that would already be gone...heh, heh, I just love teaching them their own motto.] In return for the invitation by the scouts, the cubs invited the scouts over for our campfire (we had the better location for it). The scouts came with skits and we came with 'smores. Everyone slept well that night. And thus was born a renewed appreciation for the importance of the pack to the future of the troop, as well as all the other things that come with that close sense of community. And everyone had great fun. In a little more than a year I had helped the pack turn itself around and when I left for the scout troop it was thriving. The CO had realized their mistake and began to take greater interest. We still assume that we're on our own with regard to district and council. No matter.

Beavah, it is not too far from where I am. The area is crisscrossed with trails and old logging roads so it is easy to go down a wrong alternative. According to local accounts they were found hunkered down exactly like they were supposed to be, in a tent with emergency food and everything. The local reporter: "A reporter on scene said the boys' scout training and preparedness helped them through the nearly 24 hour ordeal." That's the kind of rep scouting has in the area. These boys probably would have survived another night or two if it had been necessary. This unit has had a couple of 'close calls' that could have ended up like this. But in each case I was completely confident that the boys in question would know how to respond to the situation. In each case, they realized the error, corrected it, and then found a safe solution which took them out of trouble. Never lost their heads, prepared for their trouble, and confident in their skills.

OGE, I tend to agree.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

I'm all for this kind of discussion. However, a quick search will show that this topic has some existing threads. For example in: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=323858#id_323858 you will see the question asked about what an Eagle mill is (over the course of 5 pages), and in: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=290698#id_290698 you will see a thread with the identical title, over 8 pages. Wanna continue one of those? Those just over the last year.

I guess I'll try to provide a voice of 'moderation' if there is such a thing. The leader who was responsible for this incident probably wasn't thinking about the broader impact to BSA or, for that matter, about the criticism he might get as a result. But I suspect he has a different view by now, especially if he reads forums like these. However, and after all, we can all take solace in the fact that everyone is still alive to fuss about it. On the other hand, for those of us who react strongly to stories like this, we must remember that regardless of what we think, we're going to have little or no impact on that leader or, for that matter, on nearly everyone else outside our local communities. Therefore, to me, after we get over all the tsk, tsking, the best response is to make sure that WE don't find ourselves in a similar predicament some time in the future and make sure the boys in our units really ARE prepared for incidents like this. Who knows, it might start a trend or something.

The notebooks, heh, heh. I'm a cream puff to the students. Thanks for not sharing that last thought.

Basement, I've seen the dishwashing and the trail blocking plus cutting live trees to unblock a view, throwing garbage off the trail, crapping in streams, etc. But while the trail blocking was by a troop, I've observed that with other groups as well and I don't mind stumbling over a few feet and hands as I pass through. The perps for the really dirty stuff have almost always involved non-scouts, often on 4-wheelers or some other kind of off-road vehicle. I have filled a 4WD Suburban with garbage on more times than I care to count. The thought process that leads people to leave dirty diapers lying around campsites is one of the reasons I know my efforts to clean these places is in vain. So I step over the rest of humanity and pick up what I can....and try not to think about it too much.

I supply my students with the side-spiral bound N 353 Field Polydura 4 5/8in x 7in RiteintheRain notebooks. Short of throwing them into a fire, they're nearly indestructable. Cost about $7.

Are you talking about the wilderness area up the Gallatin River in Montana? Been there. Great backpack trip. Camped at the highest lakes and fished for dinner every day. At night lightning danced on the top of Gallatin Peak. Met absolutely no one for about 4 glorious days. Hated to leave.

I was having an incredible sense of deja vu and then I realized why: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=306438

Basement, I find solitude on the AT by aiming at mid-week, preferably during cold rain or sub-freezing temps. Mice are a hazard regardless of where you are. I'm not sure what you mean by 'backcountry'. I don't consider any place east of the Mississippi to be 'backcountry' and not many areas west of the Mississippi for that matter. If you mean 'places away from urban areas where people might seek quiet solitude', that's another matter. I wouldn't take 40 boys there. I might consider taking perhaps 10 selected boys (selected among them, not necessarily by me). I might not take any. It depends on the boys, the destination, and my mood. As for the ethic, the golden rule is sufficient in my book.

Boomerscout, take it from someone who has penetrated dense tropical rainforest in steep mountain terrain, if the environment is so rough and the vegetation so thick that memory alone can't accomplish the backtrack, GPS may not be all that great at it either - no signal, multipath, etc. In the kind of place like I just mentioned, reliance on GPS rather than skill, experience, and wit might get you REALLY lost, or worse. I might sound like a neo-Luddite (and I might be one at that) but this has also been my experience.

I'm agreeing with Beavah way too much these days....I feel the same way about the GPS. I already KNOW where I am...no matter where I am. A GPS is dead weight as far as I'm concerned. I study the maps before I head out and if my memory can't bring up the needed information to make good choices while on the trail, I'm just going to enjoy the outdoors longer than I had planned. It's all good either way.

Amen to THAT, Beavah!