packsaddle

I'll try to make those links active: http://scouts.org.uk/supportresources/search?cat=377,378 for the first one and then, http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/hqdocs/facts/pdfs/fs185083.pdf for the first document, http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/hqdocs/facts/pdfs/fs185082.pdf second document, http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/hqdocs/facts/pdfs/fs185081.pdf third document. Edit: If BSA did indeed welcome gay scouts and scouters from other countries, what possible reason would BSA have to continue to treat our OWN citizens with less acceptance? The only reason I can see left would be that 'We Say So' or some similar idiotic reason.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

"I didn't link to the petition on purpose. I didn't want anyone to sign it." This is troubling. In order to promote your personal view, you would limit access to information. It is a tactic which I cannot support. I linked to the petition so that anyone who reads this thread can make their own free choice. I do not understand why you would want them not to have that ability.

Here's the link to the petition: http://www.change.org/petitions/boy-scouts-of-america-reinstate-cub-scout-leader-who-was-removed-for-being-gay

"This stuff would taste a lot better if it was mixed with FlavorAid". Socrates (according to fractured fairy tales)

Heck, I married a yankee. We spend plenty of time up north and I DO it up there FOR the dirty looks, lol. It warms my heart when during a conversation with yankee females, one of them leans to me and says, "Say something - say something else...." And I just lay it on thick. We all have a great time. ScoutNut, honey, if you ever get down this way, I'll gladly shoo the chickens off the sofa so you can have a place to rest a spell after we eat one of them chickens.

Vicki!!!! Where the heck are you????? If you're channeling 'sexist claptrap'...I'm about to unleash another volley..... The only times I've EVER heard a boy scout, even the ones older than 17, called 'honey' or 'sweetie' or some other similar endearment....has been from female leaders. It's just an observation. They're also the only leaders I've heard make comments about guys scratching their butts or crotches during outings and stuff, or eating with dirty hands, or..or.... The term "Prissy" just doesn't quite say it....just an observation, mind you.

I wish you the best of success. Your attitude on this is good and I think regardless of the outcome, you'll do fine as well.

Every bit of that can be resolved by reasonable people employing reasonable judgement during the project approval process. If you want to avoid every possible risk that stupid people might place themselves in, get rid of the Eagle project.

Beavah, point taken and I agree. My application of the title of that play was pointed more toward whether or not we allow them to use certain tools. I agree that the paperwork burden is an important issue. So, does anyone think a boy would be turned down at an EBOR if he had used a prohibited tool during his (otherwise successful) Eagle project?

Disagreement is not necessarily disrespect. The fact that the scout was in uniform does not automatically take away his First Amendment rights. So he said what he thought was the right thing to say. And I support that. I had a student a few years back, who attended an open meeting with a large number of faculty and administrators. The student said things that he/she thought needed to be said and it was taken as offensive by a few of the audience. So I immediately stood and announced that this person was MY student and I supported his/her right to speak his/her mind. That's what we leaders should do for boys who show this kind of pluck. Make them understand that it's good to speak up if you have something to say. If it stimulates further discussion, so much the better. As far as the SE goes, pay no attention to the small man behind that curtain....

"Much Ado About Nothing" OK, it's a reach but it's not often I get to refer to my very favorite Shakespeare play of all time. But the title is apt. We're wringing our hands over something that we all know is a set of rules so idiotic that most of us are going to ignore them. We ARE, in their place, going to apply our own individual judgment and knowledge of the individual boy's abilities. And that is a far more reasonable approach that can't be put into a set of rules or guidelines in any kind of objective manner. So...enough already! We all know what's really going to happen. BSA covered their butts. So let's just smile, shrug, and then go on with what we're going to do anyway. This kind of thing just marginalizes our masters at HQ even more than at present. And we don't want that do we?

As I've written before, finishing scouting at the rank of Life is very honorable. In this case I think that's what you will do...and should do. Regardless of what the SM did or did not understand, the primary responsibility is always on the candidate to know the requirements and to meet them. No excuses. I'm sorry if this seems harsh. But that's the way I view this situation. It's the way things are going to work from here on out as well.

Great sense of humor there, Moosetracker. I like that.

Welcome to the forums, Big Bird. You just added another 4 years to this one and that just about has to be some kind of record as well. I earned Eagle shortly after you did but I think I was 15 by that time. No Eagle projects back then either and my card is signed by Johnson. See you 'round the forums... Edit: Four years to the day, no less... Does this mean that four years from now I'll welcome someone else to the forums who will then fail to post another single time?...sigh.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Back in the 1960s mine held up very well. I still have it. I've been surprised to see how quickly they fall apart these days. At Eagle BORs I sometimes see some real shambles produced to show the initials for advancement. Part of the fault for that is with careless boys but I suspect part is with the materials and workmanship today. When I was CM, I would purchase one of those nice pack cloth handbook covers for each of the boys who crossed over to Boy Scouts. Got kind of expensive but when I moved up to the troop, THOSE boys were the ones with handbooks which were still in good shape at their Eagle BOR.

Yeah, I have been reading the other thread. I have never been outside the unit level but from what I've observed from that level, I agree with Beavah's characterization of (for want of a better description) UC impotence. I have observed this situation twice at the unit level. Both times, because I knew the personalities very well, I also understood that there were other things below the surface that were really driving the dynamic. In both cases there were individuals who had personal agendas. I was able to work within the unit to deflect what was almost certainly going to be destructive confrontations. I was effective partially because by that time I had no dogs in the fight (my son had been gone for a couple of years) and I had a strong advantage of greater and longer experience. Anyway, nothing about those two experiences was fun. I guess I'm supposed to actually respond to Beavah's post eventually so here goes: Unless you really do have full understanding of the parties and personalities involved in something like this, there is a strong risk of getting it wrong and possibly making things a lot worse. Sometimes we have to conclude (as I did when I started reading the other thread) that we don't really understand things well enough to 'fix' them. But then, THAT in itself requires a fair amount of understanding. Sometimes it's better to listen attentively and then wish them best of success. Knowing that we're on our own gives us ownership of both the problem and the solution. It can be powerful incentive to 'call the question' as well as to remove any external 'scapegoat' when the answer to the question is unpleasant.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

I had to brachiate around campus for a while to ponder that question. I guess all of humanity originated in the 'Old World' so I guess it's 'anything goes' for the 'New World Order'. Edited to remove some unflattering things. At least I didn't use the 'M' word!(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Trevorum doth protest too much! C'mon, admit it, I've seen your photo..... But speaking in behavioral terms of course, if we want to grok people, we merely need to carefully observe our closest relatives. OGE, "...you big ape!" Now I've also been 'outed' for sure...how did my photo get leaked to you anyway!!!???

gordosdabom, Just a little different perspective: Years ago, someone like you nearly killed my entire family. One member will suffer an impairment for the rest of her life. You and I should probably never EVER meet in person.

Primates have a social order and this can be observed in many ways, mostly through various behavioral interactions, sometimes associated with dominance or other forms of status. Whether this structure occurs as a result of individuals continually sorting themselves into ever-changing subgroups, or whether this occurs through a more rigid social hierarchy that is enforced from the start (ethnicity, cast, tribe)...the same sorts of bad feelings occur either way: resentments, envy, false pride, etc. We are monkeys, after all.

Hey, I think Eamonn just threw in his hat as well! That's another great possibility! Or did I misunderstand?

OK, I get it. Reluctant (recalcitrant?) candidate, underwhelming forum response...is this a case of old fogeys who don't 'get' Twitter? Or do we need different candidates? Think about the WOSM...led by various personalities we 'meet' in these forums. Are you cringing in horror or thinking wistful thoughts? Who ELSE might we consider....BadenP, SR540Beaver, GAHillbilly (this one is tantalizing), Moosetracker? Scoutfish? OGE? Bob White? Rooster7? Merlyn? Are those neurons in convulsions yet?

C'mon, get it right. ULTRA-right-wing liberal. AKA Libertarian...sort of.

OK, I spun a new one. Let this one go back to the original topic. I feel so guilty....

OK, this is an attempt to 'unhijack' the parent thread. But seriously, given what we saw in Tunisia, etc. a bunch of could mob the FB and Twitterspace and potentially put ol' Beavah in the position. Or at least it would be fun trying. Of course this is coming from an ultra-right-wing liberal so you have to take it with a grain of salt. Gentlemen, start your twittering!