packsaddle

I agree regarding that trauma, and for sure the sons will miss their dad and I too hope they have plenty of good memories. My SIL at age 8 watched helpless and alone as his father died of a massive heart attack. It has had a lifelong effect on him. To paraphrase another man, 'Why can't things like this happen to some old man like me, pretty much spent anyway?' Instead of to a father with children still growing up.

Well...given what you see that is actually happening, what do YOU think the answer is?

Obligated? They're not. But if they're following the money on the other hand...... As Rush Limbaugh says, "It's all about the money."

It's the ones who pose no challenges and obey every rule that are the 'Stepford Children', lol. They don't occur often in reality, if at all.

Died with his boots on. That would work for me.

Of course that assumes it hasn't always been about the money...and the evidence against that idea seems pretty weak.

That's a great idea. It works for all ages for that matter.

To all the great fathers I know are reading these forums, I'd like to thank all of you with a wish for a Happy Father's Day. Mine are grown and fledged but even when we seem surrounded with all the terrible things in life, when I think of my grandchildren and how good a father my son is to them, I see something wonderful...reason for optimism, that there ARE good things and that good fathers help keep it that way. Happy Father's Day!

You are also engaging in a critical thinking error. Unless you have actually somehow measured the degree of close-mindedness and prejudice of everyone else, there is no way that you can make that claim with any kind of validity. Moreover, I seriously doubt that you can read his mind...I could be wrong.

Yes, that clarifies things. Your point is well taken. It will be interesting to see how these sorts of interactions develop in the future as the old membership policy descends into oblivion and local option becomes more widespread.

And that merely constitutes more evidence that if this country goes in that direction, civilization has ended, lol. Beer! Of all things!

Your alternative to "pluralistic American" was both 'conservative' and 'Christian'. I'm just noting that 1) those two linked characteristics that shouldn't necessarily be linked that way and 2) there are more potential alternatives out there than "...a conservative Christians only group". Your statement implied there were no other alternatives for BSA to choose from.

Rick, that's a flawed choice. It is possible to be conservative while serving a broad spectrum of faiths...perhaps not easy to do this without being dominated by one or the other faiths...but possible. And yes, Trail Life does seem to fit the description you gave.

The Chronicle is one of the last papers I expected to read here but somehow I managed to miss that article when it came out. Good article. I am fairly open about my involvement in scouting and I know at least one other faculty member who is very visibly a scoutmaster, even to the point of gaining access to school property for troop events. On the other hand, this community is fairly provincial so everyone sort of knows everyone else anyway, plus the troops in the immediate area have mostly turned a blind eye to the membership requirements and this is mostly understood by the community (local option is the defacto norm here). The most interesting aspect of this is on my field trips with my fleet of canoes. I ask the students to identify who might have been boy scouts and when hands are sometimes raised, I put them on the spot to teach the others various useful knots. Then there are often a lot of very nervous looks, feet shuffling (one of those joyous moments I enjoy so much) as they admit they've completely forgotten...so I lead the entire class in the lesson (the women are much quicker studies by the way).

The kids refer to my college yearbook as the 'yellow pages'. High school is 'Dead Sea Scrolls'. Edit, Mattman is on to something, fortunetelling as a fundraiser!

So was it 20 lashes with that wet noodle, or were they ejected? Just curious.

Nope, I asked about G.H.W. Bush, not dubya.

Did you just connect George H.W. Bush - with the boy down the street - with Islamic jihadists - with an extremist world conspiracy - with Twitter?

Could someone please explain what this New World Order is that G.H.W. Bush talked about? I've never really understood what is meant by it, nor what it means in the title of this thread, assuming it even refers to the same thing. Other than a more consolidated organization of international interactions (and I'm not even sure what THAT means) I couldn't get much out of that speech that ever seemed to stick in the real world. Edit: I suspect the 'Dream' of the people who, a couple of hundred years ago were auctioned as property not too far from the recent mass killing in SC, was more of a 'nightmare', a real one.

Twocubdad, Do you suppose that might have happened once or twice, lol? To me the question here is not so much your pragmatic 'what happens', but rather 'what should happen' which, evidently, no one here can answer to everyone's satisfaction. What's your guess, lol? Twenty lashes with a wet noodle? Require them to interpret into English something that G.W. Bush said? Or....once WE finally figure out what the answer is (unlikely given what I'm reading here) we gently remind them of what the protocol is supposed to be (as if we've known it all along)?

I can see that point. The two persons in these cases didn't exactly cover themselves with glory in either case, although were those mistakes really all that big, really? Who among us has not made any mistakes in life? Have any of us ever had the benefit of undeserved help for a mistake we made? For the late Eagle, I see the least benefit for providing the help, mostly because of the person's age. The whole thing seemed symbolic really. To me the potential real benefit is that which a good scout would derive from providing assistance and remaining faithful to the points of the law which are NOT conditional or dependent on the situation. 'Helpful' is helpful. If someone made a really poor choice, that was their mistake and while I might be disappointed that they made the mistake, if I, as a good scout, turn my back on that person to whom I could provide assistance, I'm not sure I am living up to the point of 'Helpful' and possibly 'Kind'. I am fairly certain that to condemn someone in that situation and deny them assistance as a result is not 'Kind'. Especially when there is little or no personal cost to me as a result. I see Bad Wolf's point about meeting deadlines and being responsible. I'm not sure I see it in the stark, unforgiving terms he seems to express. As for the graduate student, I only gave enough detail to make the analogy. If anyone had asked I would have informed them that the shock of the loss of his advisor caused him to have a lapse in judgment. He discussed this later when the clarity of all the factors had sunk in. He experienced such a strong feeling of hopelessness that he gave up. It only took a few encouraging words to rekindle his interest and desire to complete the degree which was of great benefit to him, his family, and to his current employer. Once he felt that he wasn't 'orphaned' he took control. As I mentioned, the statute of limitations had not expired so there was no problem with some 'line' being moved. I also add that the person who spotted him and took the little effort it took to encourage him derived great benefit from seeing this person rise to a better life as a result. The two facts that [first] the graduate student met immediate condemnation here, and [second] without any followup questions of clarification, is troubling, even more so that this might be the expected response from a good scout. Is it possible that the reaction of condemnation closed the door to the desire to help? Once a position like that is taken, it is difficult to 'unset' those heels. Perhaps the judgment against this student was made in the spirit of the golden rule...I hope not.

On the contrary, I like that you have made an attempt to answer my question. But you responded first with a restatement of your position and then a vague justification that is unclear. I am asking for clarity. Anyone else want to give Bad Wolf some help with this? His position is that a good scout should not give assistance to the old scout in the OP, nor to the graduate student in my real-life example. Bad Wolf's justification is that helping either of these persons constitutes moving a line but he is unable to articulate where the line should be. In the case of the graduate student, I submit that even the 'line' of the statute of limitation had not been crossed, much less moved, so in that case it is unclear how Bad Wolf's justification of 'line movement' applies. Perhaps someone could help with that one as well.

Bad Wolf, you are the person who is advocating: 1) that a good scout would not provide assistance to either of these persons and 2) that the 'harm' is that a 'line' has been moved (presumably the benefit of denying assistance is that the 'line' is not moved). If we are to accept your arguments, it is fair for us to understand where the line should be if we are to avoid moving it. And because you are its advocate, it is incumbent on you to identify what that line is and how the rest of us can objectively identify where it should be in order not to move it. So far you have provided no such information.

Is it really moving the line if BSA determines that the application of the 'rule' results in the apparent outcome? If BSA gets to decide where the line 'is', does their decision constitute 'moving' it? In the case of the graduate student, the statute of limitation had not run out so he was well within his right to complete the degree. All he needed was the information that it was possible for him to do it. You would have denied that info. Is that moving the line? Really?...if the line was some time still in the future? In the case of the graduate student, I could argue that denying that info constitutes "moving the line" to the date at which time the student came to his misconception. Where does it end? That's speculative. You won't know the answer to that question until the "end" happens, whatever it is. You don't know what that outcome will be. Ignorance is a poor basis for a decision.

LOL, at first I was thinking those were month/day numbers. WOW! And then the last one cleared things up. But even then...that's impressive.