Pack212Scouter

Flag retirements are also great. Keep in mind two things: age level means that they are usually run by adults...and explaining the reason before hand (yes before!). We had one imigrant boy who was quite upset and wanted to know why we were burning "his" flag. It is also important to have a good burning fire, but not too large. I recommend a small pile of wood saturated with lamp oil. I rewrote a retirement cerimony for our Pack by combining some concepts we liked and aiming it more Cub age boys. You'll notice that most of them are written with wording and concepts way above their level. It's not perfect, but I'm pretty proud of it. I'll post it here, anyone that wants is free to use it. Pack 212 Southeast Christian Church Flag Retirement Ceremony Items needed: 1 US flag, old, worn, and/or tattered for retirement. 1 pair of large sharp scissors. A modestly burning campfire. 4 or more Adult Leaders or Boy Scouts to handle flag and as many Cub Scouts for reading as may be appropriate. Sections in red are to be used if the flag is too large to safely retire in one piece. Prepare fire pit, preferably by lining with ashes from previous retirement. Fire pit should either be a separate one from the campfire or should be the last thing that the campfire is used for that evening. If metal grommets are used, remove them from flag prior to ceremony with scissors. Light fire and begin ceremony when it is burning sufficiently to not go out. OPENING: MC: Please stand. I would ask you to remain silent, standing until the retirement ceremony is over, and the flag is completely burned. MC: Color Guard advance. (color guard enters to stand behind fire) MC: We are here tonight to give honor to this flag one final time. It has flown long and proud as a symbol of our nation at (place location here). The flag is always to be treated with respect. United States Code Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 8 states The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning. (red part) As part of this ceremony, we will be separating the flag into four sections for the safety of the color guard. The blue union will kept in one piece, as it represents the fifty states and the union should never be broken. A small amount of ashes have been kept from a previous retirement and are lining the fire to prepare a place of honor for this flag. After this retirement, the ashes from this flag will be buried secretly so they cannot be dishonored and the grommets will be taken to a veterans cemetery and placed at the headstones to honor those who died for our freedom. MC: Color Guard present the colors. (Color Guard unfolds flag and holds it facing assembly, blue field to stage right) MC: I was born on June 14th,1777 and the Declaration of Independence is my birth certificate. I am more than just red, white, and blue cloth shaped into a design. I am the shelter of the worlds mistreated people; the silent guardian of freedom. I am the symbol of the greatest nation on Earth; a nation of the people, by the people, for the people. I am strong because of the strength of the American people; their desire to give help to those in need. I try hard for peace yet stand ready to fight cruelty. I feed the starving and offer help to the needy. I defend the freedom of those who desire it and offer a home to anyone who will pledge allegiance to me. I have led your sons and daughters from Valley Forge to the Arabian Peninsula. I have flown at Gettysburg, Flanders, Normandy, Korea, and Vietnam and I fly today in Iraq and Afghanistan. I have protected the weak and the innocent in dozens of nations. I covered in silence each of your honored dead taking them in my embrace to their final resting place beneath the rows of white crosses. I fly over you schools, your homes, and your churches. I even stand on the moon, as a symbol of what this great nation is able to do when united in purpose. I have flown through peace and war, difficulty and success. Honor me, respect me, and defend me with your lives and everything that you have. Never let my enemies tear me down from my high place lest I never return. Keep alight the fires of patriotism; keep alive the spirit of democracy. Worship Eternal God, keep His commandments, defend freedom and justice; and God willing I shall remain in freedom for the rest of my days. MC: Scout salute! MC: Please join me is saying the pledge to this flag one final time. (say pledge) (If necessary for safety, Scouts separate flag into four pieces with one cut vertically and one cut horizontally during the following. Keep the union in one solid piece to be burned last) MC or Scout 1: I have 13 stripes which represent the 13 colonies, which stood defiantly for freedom and became the first states. MC or Scout 2: The red reminds us of the blood of patriots and heroes who have died for our freedom. MC or Scout 3: The white represents the purity that is in all our hearts and the honor deep inside our soul. MC or Scout 4: My 50 stars represent the 50 states, which make up our great nation. MC or Scout 5: My blue field stands for truth and justice under Gods heaven, which binds our union together. MC: Do not grieve for this flag, for it has served our nation proudly. It is deserving of retirement with the honor and respect, which we now give. MC: Honor guard retire the colors! (The honor guard now places the flag or pieces of the flag in the fire, lowering the center into the flames and folding the corners inward to the fire. If the flag has been separated, burn the union last) (Once the flag is completely aflame and the fire begins to burn down) MC: Two! MC: Color guard dismissed! MC: Pack dismissed! (after the fire has gone out, collect some ashes to keep for the next ceremony, and secretly bury the remainder of the ashes so that they cannot be desecrated)

The campouts are always fun. My recommendation is to make it a two night event. Typically if you make it just Saturday night about half will show up afer noon, cutting your usuable day in half. It also makes a full day of time that does not involve setting-up break-down for the adults. As for events, successful ones that we have done are a nature hike, orientiering with a prize at the end (usually chocolate or trail mix), bottle rockets (2 litter pump up water rockets, not the real ones which are not allowed for Cubs), some sort of sports activity, fire starting can be demo but we usually don't let them handle fire until at least Bear age, Cub-O-Napolis (dens make race cars out of large cardboad boxes, not too large, an race around a circular course in a relay wearing them). For our spring campout this year we are doing it Olympics style because of the games this year. We are planning Cub scout knowledge quiz, Scout skills challenge, orienteering challenge, rock wall (must be commercial wall for Cubs), obstical course, and some others that we haven't come up with yet. Something else that can be fun is if you have some Webelos there, they can cook the meal for the pack (with plenty of adult supervision and help). We did that at our Webelos winter campout and it worked out awesome. Saturday night they assembled hobo meals for themselves and their adult. On Sunday morning the Webelo 2's cooked a breakfast of eggs, sausage, potatoes, etc for everyone. If you do this, just hit up everyone attending for their cooking gear don't try to buy all your own. Also, a campfire program is always fun. Smores, a few songs, a skit, etc and it's always a hit. We also do a Sunday morning service, usually revolving around God & nature and cub age boys.

A centerpiece...hmmm...How about a cardboard model of the leaning tower or the coloseum? You could do it yourselves...or find and make something like this... http://www.paperlandmarks.com/colosseum.htm http://www.paperlandmarks.com/pisa-campanile.htm(This message has been edited by Pack212Scouter)

Thanks for all your comments. We will be sure to council any of them interested on what it really involves.

Scoutnut, our Pack has recently begun using a trailer out of necesity. Over the past year, we have begun doing some to all of the meals at our campouts. Also due to the size of our Pack (140-150 boys) a trailer has become a near necesity for these events. We have simply rented one a couple of times with a poor experience. Fortunatly for us however our Troop is fundraising for a new, larger trailer and will be keeping their old for smaller, long-distance high adventure trips. They have offered to let us use their old one whenver we need it as long as the Troop doesn't have a need that weekend. LOL I digress....a lot. But my point was that some larger Packs may have greater equipment needs than some smaller ones. (Including a trailer)

The few Bears will qualify by birthday...however they also will have just crossed over to Scouts in March 2010, so First Class in time is "highly unlikely", to be generous with the term.(This message has been edited by Pack212Scouter)

Your analysis sounds pretty sounds. I would expect that it would greatly depend on the Scout. We have some Webelos that I could see doing it and loving it...and others that would probably hate it. Out of curiosity...what do Staff do at these?(This message has been edited by Pack212Scouter)

Our Cubmaster and I are getting apps so that our current Webelos can prepare if they want to go. They will all qualify, as well as four of our Bears. We have also both contacted Council about being leaders (We will both be WB and have much other training). Anyway, at our meeting last night one of our ACM's made the statement that from his experience, Jamboree wasn't really worth it. What can really be expected, and how should it be presented to the boys? The great thing about it being this far ahead is the boys have lots of time to fundraise for it.

"technically, the ACMs and DLs do not attend Pack committee meetings...because they are not members of the Committee. The CM attends as their representative, but technically he is not on the committee, either. The CM and CC both report to the COR, equally." I'm sure there are many ways that it is done (probably most incorrectly LOL) but according to the BSA organizational charts, the CM reports to the Pack Committee, who reports to the COR. Also, there is nothing against a CM, ACM, or even DL being on the Pack Committee. Their position is not on the committee structure, but they can certainly wear a committee hat. I also have to pipe in on the husband/wife CM/CC team thing. Alot of packs seem to do this..and it's commendable for a family to be so involved. It is not usually the best idea. One of the unlisted roles of the CC is to provide a check & ballance for the CM. And vice versa. Part of the CC's job is to work with/coordinate with the CM in the running of the Pack. It is also to take over the running of the Pack if the CM is unable to serve. Both roles can be difficult for a husband/wife team.(This message has been edited by Pack212Scouter)

Our pack charges a one-time fee at the beginning of the pack year of $60. We offer an early bird to current pack members of $50 from BG until the end of the Pack year. Out of this, we cover recharter, Boys Life, awards (patches, belt loops, pins, etc), some pack supplies, our scholarship fund (for boys in need of help with Scouting costs), and a few other small things. The Popcorn sale is the only fundraiser that we ask the boys to do during the year. Out of that 8% goes to the pack and 25% goes to each Scout's account to pay for Scouting activities. Events such as Camping, overnighters, PWD, regatta, etc. usually have a fee and/or some concession sales with out goal of having each event being self-funded.

I'm sorry to hear abou your difficulties. As has been stated here, as CC, you are within your rights to have a meeting with him and discuss the problems. You can also remove him from the ACM position. I believe only the COR can remove him from the pack. This situation sounds serious and as painful as it is to deal with, you can almost guarantee that it will get worse (with negative impact on the Pack) if it continues. I would suggest starting with a meeting that includes CC, CM, COR, and see if your BSA district representative is available. While this situation may be new for you and even your COR, your DR has probably dealt with it before.

Wow...what a problem to have. We will gladly put a third leader in a den, it's always nice to have a backup leader there in case job/family/illness interfears with one. And I guarantee we can find a chair spot....camping, PWD, B&G. While we don't hurt for leadership, we never have quite the number that we would like. I can't imagine a Pack that does. There must really be an involved bunch of parents there!

Oak Tree summarized it up very well. Our pack runs about 150 boys. 19-20 dens It has advantages and disadvantages, but it works well for us. I'll just make a quick summary list for you. These are but a few off the top of my head. Advantages - A much larger fundraising pool for equipment purchases, etc. - The pride of walking into a district or council event and being unmistakably there (I know, pride is a sin...but I'll admit it's still fun). - The ability to help out smaller Packs, District and Council with things such as PWD, etc. (We are donating our old PWD track & equipment to coucil for use by smaller packs) - A large talent pool to pull leaders, especially committee leaders from. - The ability to move boys around as dens, leaders, etc might fail. - The ability & capability to carry on with or without support from the COR as changes on that side occur. Disadvantages - Need for significant facilities for meetings/storage(we are based at a Megachurch and have ample facilities). - The need for equipment (sound/video system for Pack meetings and events PWD equipment to handle this many in the time alloted). - Time commitment required for top leadership (it's like running a non-profit corp) - Increased chance of leader/scout problems to deal with. - Expectations by everyone of a quality program. - Event planning for pack size needed (B&G, pack meeting, PWD, etc) - Excellent communications ladder needed with leaders and Cubs. - The need for dedicated Events Chair and more than one ACM depending on pack size(We have four, one for each rank) Some people love large packs (I do) and some prefer smaller ones.

DenZero, You mention difficulty getting people in a very small Pack to commit to summer activities. Another option for you might be to find one or two other small packs close to you (Your DE can help with this). Then work planning summer activities together. Each pack could take a summer month and plan an activity, then you could participate together, increasing attendance.

I am both a Wolf Den Leader and Assistant Cubmaster. Our pack has Den meetings every Monday (1 hour for Tigers and Wolves, 90 minutes for Bears and Webelos, although Bears sometimes cut short at 60). One Monday per month, Den meetings are replaced by the 90 minute Pack Meeting which consists of songs, skits, announcements, and awards. We have learned that the key to Pack meetings with 150 Cubs is to keep things fun and moving. During the summer when school is out we try to plan two activities a month. This usually is enough to keep everyone interested...give everyone something to do...not overdo it...and qualify for the summertime pack award. Our summertime activies usually include summer camp/day camp, bicycling, a service project, a party night at a pizza place, etc.(This message has been edited by Pack212Scouter)

Gold Winger, you seem to like to look at the world in a positive sense, that is great, unfortunatly much of the reality of the world is different. And being responsible for young boys means that we have to put their welfare...all of their welfare first. "I always judge people by their behavior NOW. Allowing him to go camping with the Pack and interact with regular people may have been good for him and helped him realize that there were benefits to staying out of jail." Maybe, maybe not...however Scouting is for the boys, not to help influence mom's current boyfriend. "His presence might have actually been good for all of the boys. "Mr. Brown, Jimmy said that you went to jail." "Yep, I did some really STUPID things and I paid the price. Jail is not a nice place." " Judging by what we have been told here, he is a multiple repeat offender (including some violent crimes) hardly someone who would be expected to say that. If he truely had that attitude, I somehow doubt that he would be threatening people today. "Unfortunately, now we'll never know." Thank goodness. I personally would rather not know the chance of a marginal good outcome versus the likelyhood of a negative influence or the off chance of something worse. The reason for background checks (a requirement for leadership by our CO), rules on behavior, two-deep, etc. is to keep these boys in a safe environment. Their safety (physical, emotional, and influenced) should always be our first priority.

Let us know how things work out...and your new name! It's leaders like you that mke the Scout program quality. Don't be scared, but I can see you stepping up to more leadership positions in the future

Welcome to Scouting! Your experience will soon turn into a positive one like most of ours. Den size is a flexible number. The BSA recommendation of 6-8 boys is optimum and works best. Smaller groups tend to lose the group feel and put the entire program burden on the leaders. Larger Dens can be difficult to manage, as you have experienced. Our Pack only has larger dens if they are needed and with experienced leaders who have proven themselves. In addition to being an assistant Cubmaster, I lead a den of 10 Wolves. My den is pretty well behaved, but they like, listen and respect me. I can see 13 at this level being a handfull for me too though. It is essential that you get their parent in the meeting to help if you have any problems. Even though it is only a BSA requirement for Tigers, parents should still be doing alot of in meeting help with their son at this age. We had most of a Tiger den drop out after last year because of unruly meetings, so it is important to get a handle on this. Unfortunatly none of the parents told us until the year was over and their decisions made. We now keep a closer eye on things. You will find that with parents new to Scouting, most are just reluctant to volunteer because they have no idea what they are getting into. There are several methods that work with varying degrees depending on personalities. 1) State that the Dens need to be split because of size, and if noone steps up, there won''t be a den. Sometimes this works, but it also backs you into a corner. 2) Ask over and over. Sometimes this will convince someone on the edge, but parents will also eventually tune you out. 3) Determine which parents are natural leaders with the kids. You can tell by how they interact with theirs and others. Get them aside before or after the meeting (better yet, have a kid free lunch or coffee with them, one on one works better). Explaine to them that for the best experience, the boys really need to be in two dens. Discuss how the program works and what helps there are. Also make sure they understand that they have support from the more experienced. If you feel you need help explaining, get your Cubmaster or Committee Chair involved in this discussion. This method almost always generates the leaders. Of course there are others, but these are what come to mind.

.(This message has been edited by Pack212Scouter)

LOL...if only it were that simple. You wouldn''t believe what we have to go through sometimes. Having a CO of that size is just like having a Pack our size. It has both advantages and disadvantages. Like I said, we have never had to turn boys away before, so I''d say our Pack is about the right size for the situation. I''m looking forward to when the construction project is completed so that we have a better picture of where we are facility wise.

If there had been a way, we would have made room, unfortunatly we do not have the physical facilities available to us to expand. We are limited to one block of rooms, one night a week. We had 4 new Webelos join this year, and had to turn this and the one before him away due to size limits. We actually wound up merging one of our Wolf dens into the others when we lost the use of two rooms. I think that this is the first year that we''ve had to turn anyone away, but it is a construction year. Like I said it was not a choice that we liked or one that had to do with the parent''s attitude. As for making sure that members of the CO can always join...our CO is about 15,000 families...I would say thankfully more don''t want into the Pack, however, I prefer the problem of figuring our how to find room somewhere or helping them into another Pack. It shows a positive interest in Scouting.

A) This webelo already has a Pack, his parent wanted to transfer. B) Our Den sizes are stretched to their limit. At what point would you say it has to stop? 15? 20 boys per den? We have X number of rooms to use during a specific 2-hour time period on Monday nights. Now in another year this would have been less of an issue, but we have lost the use of 3 rooms this year, two of them two weeks into the meeting year. C) We did offer to help this parent find a Pack that suited his needs. The parent was not interested, stating that they "knew everyone at the Scout Service Center." Now I''m getting defensive. We try to accomidate everyone but there is a point where it starts to impact the other boys already in the Dens. It is not a decision that we wanted to make, but in the end, we felt that we had to draw a line somewhere in the numbers.

I simply refer to the Webelos dens as patrols, since they are kinda in between...selecting Patrol names, flags, etc. I stand corrected on my terminology. As for the size, the only Dens we have that large are the Webelos and it includes a Den Chief. The rest of our dens run from 8-10 in size. Larger than we''d like, but we were forced to go with slightly larger ones this year due to temporary facility issues. We only have rooms for 18 Dens over a 2 hour span. It should loosen up next year. We are quite litterally, a full Pack.

Wow...our Cubmaster just had a parent call him at home (not sure where he got the number since it''s unlisted and all Pack calls go to his cell) and wanted to transfer his son from another Pack to ours since our Webelo program is bigger and more active. Unfortunatly we had to inform him that our Patrols were full (already running 13 in a patrol). We''re reluctant to break these Patrols up now because they have been together for years and have been working on things together for this year since early summer. We added a couple at roundup until we were uncomfortable increasing the size any more, especially without experienced leader volunteers to creat a new Patrol. We offered to help him find another Pack, at which point, he started yelling at our CM for about 10 minutes. Half an hour later he called him back! Even though our CM offered to also get him in contact with the DE to help find an active Pack with room, he began deriding us about how we''re slighting a member of our Charter Organization and how he''s a registered leader and what we''re losing....This lasted about another 10 minutes before he hung up again. I could hardly believe what I heard...Would any of you want this parent as a leader in YOUR Pack?

I can''t remember the exact numbers, but after Council get''s their cut, around 50% of whats left goes into their account and can be used to pay for dues, camping fees, etc. We also allow families to transfer funds for payment between their children. We keep our Pack roster in an Excel spreadsheet and basically have columns for thier ballance and for each event that needs to be paid.