Pack212Scouter

Buffet is what we're doing this year for precisly those reasons. The Committee decided that we we're tired of spending 2 hours cleaning up and putting away while everyone else went home to spend time with "their" sons and complain about the food selection So now we have buffet. Food for everyone's liking and no cleanup. The only challange was finding a buffet that could accomodate 430+- people!

To clarify just a little more. There is also generally some cunfusion on whether they have to complete 10 entire electives for an arrow point. The way the records programs are set up is that they get one for each 10 items...ie. 4a and 4b would be two points.

This is our plan so far. We chose to have our B&G at a buffet resturant to both because there is a food variety for everyone and so that the committee can actually get home before 11pm! (No cleanup except breaking down our equipment). We're doing Friends of Scouting at our PWD between check-in and race time. 5:30 Setup / Banquet Committee Dinner 7:00 Doors Open / Dinner / Year in Review Slide Show 7:20 Flag Ceremony - Webelos Opening Prayer - Committee Chair Overview / VIPs / Announcements - Cubmaster 7:30 Song - Cubmaster 7:35 Arrow of Light Awards - Cubmaster / A-CM-Webelos / Awards 7:45 Song - Cubmaster 7:50 Rank Awards - Cubmaster / All A-CMs / Awards 8:40 Prize Drawing (1 per rank + Grand Prize 8:45 Cub Scout Vespers - Cubmaster 8:50 Closing Comments / Closing Prayer - Committee Chair 8:55 Closing Flag Ceremony - Webelos (This message has been edited by Pack212Scouter)

Wow...you do have a challenge ahead! I think once you surmount it you will be both proud of what you have accomplished and have enough knowledge to be beneficial to all kinds of Scouting functions in your area. For now take it one step at a time and get those parents involved! Your not a babysitter. They should be active in their boy's den. Push....nudge...hit em over the head Say "Hey...next week we're learing about first aid. Aren't you a Nurse? Could you look at that section and plan a meeting around it?" Once you get them involved many will be happy to step up to leadership.

Let me add to my statement. I really do understand the desire to serve. My wife struggles with weight and I carry about 15-20 pounds that I wish I didn't. I guess there really isn't a good answer. You do what you can

LisaBob...good point. I didn't think of that. ScoutNut. I hear you, and with a Pack of 150 I understand...but the bottom line is. The Den leaders should have that for you yes. But this pack aparently fell apart. In a Den that has issues a) I'm going to work on fixing them. b) I'm going to make dang sure that those boys get credit for the work they do. I would not be at the end of the year going "I'm sorry son...your den leader sucked and I didn't feel like putting in the effort myself either to make sure you got credit for your Bear rank."

While age and surgeries are one thing, exteme out of shape I have mixed feelings about. Some people truely cannot much help chronic obesity and can still offer much. But the flipside of course is how to you deliver the Scout Oath if you don't live all of it...including the "be physically strong". To me that means reasonable healthy & fit.

AOL is very important and the boy should be recognized. That given however, since it is not viewed as important as another event, the Pack should only be expected to make reasonable accomodations. I would suggest that a) the boy receive it at the first Pack meeting AFTER the others have received their AOL and b) that it simply be presented as an award without too much cerimony since they had their chance at the big cerimory and it is a lot of work to put it together again.

Nothing like jumping into water well over your head is it! Thank you for volunteering to help your Pack. Others have covered advancements pretty well. Some other things though. Any events that you have away from your regular meeting sight must have a trip permit turned in. This includes PWD and B&G if they are held in another location. Also, in view of what's happed, although they may very well be there, I wouldn't plan on the ex-CM to be at your campout. Talk to you District Exec and get at least two current leaders trained BALOO. It is a BSA requirement that one be at your campout. You need at least two because if one gets sick or can't be there, you need a backup...or campout is over. On the records side. Have yourself or an advancement chair go den to den and review each Cub's book, updating at least their advancement requirements. These should be signed off in their books.

Genewick4, Your comment is entirely unfair. Whether you read it with wife, friend, fellow scouter, or just the way it was written, it reads the same...an issue with someone else that could not follow proper protocols. A tail of manipulation by someone and a CO afraid of the Pack falling apart. So say that Ekmiranda is affected out of self importance is entirely unfair. Myself, our current CM or CC of our pack would have reacted just the same. As related, this story shows a Pack with serious issues that are not going to go away with the departure of the CC & CM. The Pack has internal issues that the CO needs to solve, but apparently won't, can't, or doesn't know how. There may be other issues here...there is probably another slant to the story. But for the purpose of this thread, I am assuming the story has been told. Yes, your quote is very acurate, but there is also a flipside. It is very hard not to take personally something that we have poured our heart and soul into. And this is not always a bad thing. Pride, properly attuned, can also lead us to make improvements that we may not otherwise make. We just have to remember one thing. Everything we do is for God and the boys...not ourselves.(This message has been edited by Pack212Scouter)

"One more thing about cheap boots. Two members of my Philmont crew had bought cheap boots at Target, their boots did not survive the training hikes and the trek. The soles seperated from the upper. However, if the only hiking that you'll be doing is a five mile jaunt to the campsite, those cheap boots might do you well." Very true. Wal-Mart & Target are fine for 5 mile hikes but any high adventure I beg you to encourage them strongly to invest in boots. The waterproofing, sole, and stitching frequently fails on cheaper boots with heavy use. I've done 50 mile winter dogsledding excursions and 4-season backpack treks. The one thing that I can guarantee is happy feet=happy scout. Unhappy feet=unhappy Scout. Cheap boots on long treks can cause not only sore feet, but back pain, blisters and more.

Well said Ekmiranda. I am glad to hear that you have found a new niche in Scouting. Hopefully as time goes on, the memory of such a problem will fade and you will find once again the joy of Scouting with the boys.

Very true. It is a wonderful thing when a CO takes a pack on as their own. I believe someone even post on here that their CO 100% funds their Scouting program. But unfortunatly that only happens when the CO's leadership has a true understanding of and love for Scouting. What is more common is that the Scouting program is more of a "red headed stepchild." Something that is tolerated, even appreciated at times, but never truely embraced as a CO program. Often this leads to Scouting being the first potential hit when facility/program conflicts arrive at the CO.

"The CC and CM run a show once month and help set-up a calendar for the year. All the ranks are approved and completed at the den level." Perhaps it works like this with smaller Packs of 20-30 (although I tend to doubt it). But with very large Packs that is anything but the case. With huge Packs, leadership puts more into a quality Pack program that any troop at times. The members of the pack committee run training, coordinate awards, ensure that all dens are completing their ranks programs in time...they coordinate and run at least 4 pack campouts and a couple of camp-ins a year which are every bit as complicated as a district campout event when your dealing with a Pack of 150. Let's not forget coordinating that size for Scouting for Food, service projects, any fundraising, PWD, Raingutter, B&G, etc. Planning a quality Pack meeting that can hold the attention of that many boys. And don't forget that they have to be available on meeting nights for any problems/issues/questions. Then of course there are the times when leaders don't make a Den meeting and someone has to step in for the Den. I am not complaining...I think our pack has one of the best and greatest programs in the area, something testified to by our numbers. But the CC, CM, and other committee members do far more than make a calendar and run a show once a month.

I am very sad to hear that it has come to this situation. This seems to be yet another example of the adults forgetting what the program is about...and the boys potentially suffering.

I see your point all the time. And more often than not, it is the fault of the parents. They are just too busy to bother enforcing courteous behavior...or they don't care themselves. Our pack seems to run about 5% boys going out of their way to help. 90% being courteous in general. And about 5% that are defiant about it. What always pleases me though is to see the outstanding examples. For instance, at our recent Webelo Winter Camp, two Webelo 1's (ok...our CC's and CM's) went off and cleaned the two restrooms on their own shortly after our arrival. They weren't asked to do it, simply took it upon themselves as something that needed to be done. My own son (a Wolf) weekly makes sure that our meeting rooms (16 of them) are clean and straightened up at the end of the meeting night while I help wrap up other things. He was never asked him to do this. Both he and a few others that I notice go out of their way to hold doors for people. Whenever I get discouraged, I think of the boys that DO exhibit courteous behavior and remember that it's getting across to at least some of them. Even one success makes it all worth it.

Hmmm...really hard choice. Let's see... Backpcking - Denali National Park, AK Cycling - New Hampshire's White Mountain National Forest to Maine's Acadia National Park in fall follage time. Canoeing - Minnesota's Boundry Waters Canoe area Ocean Kayaking - Alaska's Kenai Fjords National Park & Juno. Winter Camping - New River Gorge in West Virginia (Climate reasons) White Water Rafting - Grand Canyon

My replacement as Den Leader for my Wolf den just made his announcement. "Red Bull Mondays" I think it's a wonderful idea. Red Bulls and then send them home for bed. That'll teach the parents that BSA isn't Babysitters of America, right? LOL. Actually, we've had snacks at the end of meetings sometimes. But in all honesty, I don't think the boys really miss them when they are not there.

This age is still into Star Wars. Well maybe not as much as we were at that age but they still like it. We have Webelos still playing with SW legos...my 7 year old Wolf and 9 yo daughter watch the movies any chance they get. I think you'd be suprised how much they know about it.

We started doing a Winter Camp for our Webelos this year. A few successful activities were... Snowball throwing at targets Tracking - you can make your own tracks Compass course - lay out a course of about 25 points and have them go in groups of 5 with adults. Each one gets to take 5 bearings. Snack prize at the end. Fire building competition - for Webelos They can pull sleds in a competion. Webelos did the cooking. Hobo meals worked outstanding for dinner. They were a hit all around and even Tigers can "assemble" both their's and their parent's dinner. Night hike. Astronomy. Can't ask for better viewing than a cold winter night. End of the night was with some board and card games in the cabin.(This message has been edited by Pack212Scouter)

rjscout, We've done it at a few campouts. Usually after dinner and before the evening activities start. The Cubs were suprisingly attentive and respectful. I think it is because they were truely interested in what was happening. We also presented it as a very formal ceremony, which helped. We only cut the flag into sections if it is VERY large. For some reason, I personally don't like the idea of cutting up a flag even though there is nothing technically wrong with that. As for the lamp oil, we make sure to prepare it out of sight of any Scouts. The guide to safe scouting is correct, but nessecity sometimes has to rule (did I say that? shhhhh)...the goal is to have a small fire that can consume the flag and burn out on it's own in a short time. We use nothing but kindling for the fire (which has a small amount of oil poured on it prior to lighting) or you will be standing fire watch for the next couple of hours. If you use your main campfire, out of respect nothing else should be done over/at it, so that ends the evening there. Hence our choice of a seperate fire at location slightly away from the main campfire. The new lightweight steel firepits are perfect for this. Unfortunatly with some modern flag materials and sizes, they are more likely to smother the fire than burn...something that you don't want to happen. The purpose of lamp oil is to keep a good fire burning for about 10-15 minutes. Lamp oil is much safer than gas, white gas, etc. You will notice that alot of print suggests pre-soaking the flag in a fuel. I prefer to have a good fire over this. Another option for you may be 2-3 of the smaller compressed wood fire startes for your fire. As for results with flag materials... Cotton - the best. It burns well, but at a controlled rate. Getting rare. Only seen in indoor use flags anymore. Nylon - the most common. Be careful when burning because it melts and can burn quickly. Gives off harmful gasses so stay out of smoke. Make take a little longer for fire to go out and might be left with some lumps at end. Polyester - fairly common. Also melts as it burns. May give off some harmful gasses.

Because of the size of our Pack, I think our meetings are a little unique. They run about 90 minutes. We don't follow the themes and use alot of AV because of the size of the Pack. Our layout is pretty much as below. Opening song to gather everyone's attention. Opening Prayer Color presentation by one of the Webelo dens Pledge, Cubs Scout Promise, Boy Scout Oath for Webelos Announcements (At this point one of our ACMs takes the parents out of the room for announcements. The boys are given announcements of interest to them and have a song, uniform inspection or something else during this) Presentation from recent campout, of upcoming big event, etc.(may be PowerPoint, Video, etc. usually about 3-5 minutes) Den Skit Game Awards (usually a song or Den presented run-ons or something between ranks) Cubmaster Minute Cub Scout Vespers Song Closing Prayer Closing Colors(This message has been edited by Pack212Scouter)

Two things stand out from that flyer. It is Council run and it is promoted as Family camping. Both of these items mean that it is not camping as your den. You can promote it within your den, but it is Council's resposibility to have tained personel there. Plan it as a Pack, but you will register as individual families. There are no worries that I can see as being the only ones there. The "no camping as a den" rule applies to you taking your den out camping on its own.(This message has been edited by Pack212Scouter)

Wow...what a post! Now I'm gonna just make everyone mad This post will aim at responses to the initial post. I am not attacking anyone, just presenting my view. "Cub Scouts was a 3 year program (oh for the good old days!)" - I disagree that shorted is better. True, Cub Scouts was concieved as a way of dealing with the younger boy problem, but it has over time developed into a program that they can truely learn life leasons from. Remember the old....very old...phrase "raise them up in the way they should go and they will not depart from it"? This day more than ever, our young boys need this. My son couldn't wait to start Cubs... He is the ultimate Scout, loves everything about it. "Yeah Webelos is broken, just look at how many scouts drop-out during the Web years. The excitement is elsewhere." Yeah, the excitement is sports. Organized sports is more popular than it once was. Shortening the Scouting program isn't going to alter this competition. Quality of YOUR program does. Nearly every starting Web we have moves on into Boy Scouts. "The Citizen and Faith requirements should wait another year. Focus on exercise, games, outdoors, cooking, knife safety, first-aid. OUTDOORS, did I say OUTDOORS." Citizenship and Faith should be core throughout their lives...including the Cub years. Integrate it with outdoors though! "Whatever happened to swim lessons at scout camps. I have been to 3 different Cub Scout camps and the waterfront is Camp Splash!" That is too bad...but it sounds like an issue in your council. Our summer camps offer swim leasons to any Cub that doesn't pass the advanced swim test. "- if a scout joins in 5th grade as Web 2, no way can he earn AOL. Fix that." Why? AOL is the Cub Scout equivelant of Eagle. Making it earnable in less than a year without extreme work I think cheapens it. "- the program can't make up it's mind if we should make one more trip to the Cub Scout badges candy store or get ready for Boy Scouts." At this age it still needs to be both. You start working without the fun and reward side, you'll lose more than you do now. "- the program does not formally draw in parents as "activity badge" counselors and hence as future merit badge counselors. So if no parents sign up as Craftsman counselor then no Craftsman badge for Pack XXX." I actually like that idea Surprised? LOL "- Get Webs outdoors with troops. Not just once for AOL. Currently, it is just too informal, make it a requirement for Troop recharter or Quality Unit. Start at Web I, don't wait until Web 2. " Our pack gets out with the Troop at one camp-out a year now. Web 2 have at least 2-3 additional campouts with the troop their last year. We have also begun to make sure that our Webelos program is a Boy Scout prep program. You can do this in additional to the Activity badges. Think outside the box. Nowhere does any of the Cub program say you must camp...but most of us make sure there is an active camping program. Do the same with Webs! Just because it doesn't SAY prepare for Boys Scouts, doesn't mean you can't. "- get the Web 2's crossed-over in Feb (Scout week) so they are present for summer camp presentations and can make an early deposit. Some Web 2's don't join their new troops until April and the summer camp full payment is due in a month." Ours cross in the begining of March. This is actually by the request of the Troop. When they cross they will cross with their funds raised from Popcorn sales (they get 25% of total). They also cross having done two Webelo winter campouts held by us and at least 4 campouts with the Troop. You just need to expand the concepts Here are our numbers. 2/3 of Tigers continue on into the other levels of Cub Scouting. Far more than I think we would touch otherwise. The longer you wait, the more of them go to sports. About 80% of the Wolves end-up going though to Webelos. Of our Webelos usually 90% cross over. Nearly every Webelos that is in our program as a Web 1 attains his AOL. The key is to make your program exciting a make it work. Outdoors IS key. You have that right. But it can easily be worked into the program. Most of our boys have completed 1/3 to 1/2 of their book requirements by the time Summer and early fall programs are over. They do this OUTSIDE! Hmm...I guess I am agreeing that the Book needs to be rewritten, but it is a good program in general.

Moximan...Whooohooo! Another Mainer. I lived in Northern Maine for 10 years. Man I miss the winters (but not those muddy springs huh?). Onto the subject. Winter camping can be perfectly safe no matter what the temperatures. It does require preparation though. Sleeping bags, tents, and clothing suitable is necessary. Food and water intake requirements must also be remembered. And generally speaking on a comfort level, -15 wind chill is usually more uncomfortable than -30 without wind. Wind chill also does not matter if events are inside sheltered areas out of the wind. All that said, there are layers resposibility. Parents, leaders, and event leaders. Each has a RESPONSIBILITY to make sure that any scout attenting in these temperatures is properly clothed. Unless nearly all of your unit is not equiped, there really isn't a reason to cancel. Make crystal clear though that proper gear is a REQUIREMENT for participation.