PACK15NISSAN

To comment on the "tenure" issue, it is my understanding that you cannot hold two POR at the same time (I realize there are some exceptions and that this does occur because of lack of volunteers). However, when the BSA registers a scouter, do they not register him/her under the position code listed on his/her application? If I where registered as the CM and serving as the ACM too, the BSA would have my registered as the CM and not the ACM. As far as they are concerned I only hold the position of CM. If all this is true then I could only legimately earn tenure for a position in which I actually held. Although some one may be doing the work of another position unless they are actually registered as that position then they should not be eligible to earn tenure toward that position. I agree with BW on this, a year served is a year served, not a year in the Troop and a year in that Pack. You can't receive the same credit for two positions during the same time period (even if they are different Packs or Troops) the time simply doesn't add up.

Thanks everyone for you assistance, since it is not prohibited we will be going on the trip. This is not an overnight trip. The trip is a very easy ride virtually all down hill. Not too steep but rolling, the only pedal part is the flat part at the bottom which is only about a mile, the rest of the way you just coast and enjoy the ride and sites. When you arrive, you call the place and they send a bus to pick you and your bikes up and take you to the top, when you are done you simply pack up. There are a lot of spots around where you can pull off and have a picnic, see the mountains, and the leaves. Everyone will know up front that parents should attend with their child and that everyone should know how to ride a bike and that all safety equipment must be worn, even by adults. I don't fore see any kids wanting to drop out, we will take breaks and enjoy the senery. We have done this before as a Pack several years ago, and everyone involved said it was great and the kids who went (only about 10-15) enjoyed it a lot. I know that there is a Bear achievement on riding that some if not most of the things can be covered during this trip, including going over the safety aspects. I justed wanted to make sure that we weren't violating any policies.

Our Pack is planning on going on a trip to the Virginia Creeper in October, for those of you who don't know (which I didn't) it is a 17 mile downhill bike ride. The trail is fairly smooth and kind of rolling downhill with the exception of some flat lands near the bottom. The people who run the place say it is easy enough for young kids, inexperienced riders and older people, nothing very strenous. At our last committee meeting we where picking leaders for all our events, I was nominated to take charge the Virginia Creeper (because I asked a question). Anyway, down to the question. Would this be considered a bike trek? I know that under the G2SS Age Appropriate Guidelines for Scouting Activities section the only scouts allowed to go on a bike trek are Webelos and up, and mountain biking is the same, however I would not consider a paved down hill ride mountain biking. Does this fall under something else that I don't know about that will allow us to do this? Or are we just going to not participate as a Pack?

For the first meeting, I plan on having a simple bird house for the boys to build, while my ADL's help them with that (counts toward craftsman badge) I can talk to parents. The next few meetings I will be working on Citizen, then fitness, and then when it gets cold I will be working on the Engineer Badge. Also, barring any objections we will be working on God and Family so that we can have most of the boys done with their Webelos Badge by Christmas break. We will continue to move forward with the Craftsman Badge in January and then onto Forester and Naturalist. All year long during campouts and outings we will work on Outdoorsman and tie in LNT. The specifics of what parts you can do, how many you can do in one meeting, that kind of thing you just have to work out. I also give a little bit of homework with some badges, no more than 2 requirements and check on them each week.

Since you still seemingly haven't caught on LisaBob, let me spell it out for you, the Aquanaut comment was designed to show people how their logic and reasoning is flawed. I agree that if the requirements say to swim 100 feet, then the boy needs to swim 100 feet to have met the requirement, very clear cut we can all agree. Now to address the real question, if a boy only comes half of the time is that good attendance? No, it's not. I would not be good attendance in school, at church, or on a sports team (where I am at, missing half the practices would either get you no playing time or cut from the team), to say it is good enough for scouts is obsurd. Scouts should have pride in themselves, not feel that they will except lower standards than any other organization. For you to ASS_U_ME that is adding or taking away from the requirements is insane. I simply took the requirement for rank as it is clearly written and intend to enforce it, unlike the spineless others who will give a boy something he has not earned to spare his feelings. The taking away of the Aquanaut has been addressed, it was simply an example, proved by the fact that I did not pass a boy at summer camp who swam 80 feet. You and many others seem to dance around the requirement that states "good attendance", not "bad attendance", "some attendance", "occasional attendance", or "convienant attendance". The only thing I have done here is to simply assign a numerical defination the word "good" that is exceptable based on the surrounding world of school, work, sports, and every where else. This is in fact very logical, your arguments on the other hand are emotional and lack reason.

As it has been pointed out, perhaps I have come across a bit strong and dictator like. I will take the suggestions of the group in mind. I just don't understand why people keep making the suggestions that I be flexible on the attendance requirements, but yet stand firm in other requirements (Aquanaut for example). If I understand what is being said, that doing your best is sufficient in incidences where the guidelines allow for some play ("good attendance" does not leave a lot of interpretation). However, it is not where the requirements are black and white. You people are the kind of hypocritical, beaurocratical idealists that have no sense of reality that have made this great country a shadow of what it once was. This do your best and you will always achieve, give him the award anyway because he tried, it's not his fault so don't penalize him, there are no losers in life kind of attitude is what gives us the lazy, whinny, unrespectful, ungrateful, tolerant to everything under the moon people we have today that are tearing true American values down to replace them with something that includes everyone. Citizenship is very important to a scout, so let me give you a quote from the Declaration of Independance: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. This does do mean that everyone will be happy all the time, it is okay to upset some one, to hurt feelings, and deny them something they want but did not earn. This applies to children too, don't be afraid to say no just because you don't want to hear them cry. Those who this is addressed to know it, and they are the ones in the mall whose kids run around disrespectfully to and fro, bumping into people, and pitching fits because they can't have the toy they want and hitting mommy in the face, and then finally getting that toy.

Okay ScoutNut, let me answer you questions one by one. If 50% attendence is not good enough for you, what percentage will be good enough? 75% 100% 75% is good enough, in a month that we have 5 meetings (4 den and 1 pack) 60% will be satisfactory as long as they are maintaining 75% during the rest of the months. 50% wouldn't be a passing grade in school, nor would a 50% attendance allow them to move on. What happens when a boy shows you his work, but it is not up to your standards? I don't have standards as far as work is concerned, as a previously mentioned as long as they did their best. The only standard that I would consider is if they did not do what the requirement asked. What happens when a boy manages to complete all of the requirements for his Rank Award, but does not meet your arbitrary attendence requirement? First of all my attendance requirement is not arbitrary, in fact in is a requirement to obtain rank. If a boy manages to complete everything but that, then he has not completed everything. However, as previously stated, I will present options as to making up time. I will also give extra credit for Pack activities and camping that is not required. What happens if a boy completes requirements for a Belt Loop that their parent signs off on, but that you can not verify? I don't have suspisions that people are cheaters, I will take parents word on work that can not be verified. If it does become an issue that I or others believe they are not actually doing the work then I will discuss with parent(s) that they be more diligent in documenting (pictures, samples, etc.) of work done. You act as though I pull this attendance idea out of my bum, but is very clear in the rank requirements for both the Webelos Badge and the AOL. If they are not in attendance they cannot pay den dues, or participate in den projects, therefore they are not active. You may like what I have to say, but you must admit that based on the guidelines that I am correct.

Yes, there have been some issues in the past that the DL has been lighter on than I will be, but that does not mean I am preparing for a fight. I am trying to figure out what my options are and what the potential outcomes are going to be. It is important to be prepared for everything that I can, and knowing this is a possiblity I am preparing for it. As I have stated, I will always talk with the parent and other leaders before I make a decision, I will make arrangements when possible. This is a Webelos den, so as DL, I and my ADL's are the only ones permitted to sign off on achievements. We have 3 den meetings and 1 pack meeting each month typically. Sometimes we don't have a Pack meeting. Attendance at a Pack meeting is still attendance, so I child he comes to 2 den meetings and misses the other and the Pack meeting is still at 50% attendance. I do not intend on telling any child that his dad is a cheater or a liar. However, if I have sat down with the parent and the child multiple times and cheating, lying, or attendance is still an issue I will let the parent know that his child will not be receiving rank or whatever achievement because of the requirements where not met. The problem with so many kids today is that they just get handed things they don't earn, no one wants to let them down or hurt their feelings. If they don't do the work, it is not their fault. I don't believe that way and I won't run my den that way. If you don't earn it then you don't get it.

Pixie: Here is what requirement 2 says for earning the Webelos Badge is. 2. Be an active member of your Webelos den for 3 months (Active means having good attendance, paying den dues, working on den projects). If we have meetings 4 times a month (which we do), coming twice means 50% on attendance. That would not be a passing grade in any school and it will not be a passing grade in my den. As I have previously stated, I will sit down and let everyone know up front what my expectations from the parents and the boys are, and if any one is having a problem then I will go to them and try to work something out. If the boy is simply not in attendance he does not meet the requirements that are in black and white, therefore he does not earn the rank. That was the purpose of the Aquanaut example, to show that many people won't award a boy an activity badge for not doing all the work as written, but they would give him rank for not meeting the guidelines. That is inconsistant and the boys will pick up any discrepencies. As a previously stated, I will not award something that has not been earned, if it is because of the parents, then the parents get the blame and will have to answer to their son, not me. Just a side note, you have to swim 100 ft to earn aquanaut, it is not a choice part, it is a requirement. I am not preparing for a fight, nor am I looking for something that is not there. I was trying to get information about what to do if this occured. It was meant to be simple, but since many gave me either false or just bogus information, I felt it necessary to continue the debate.

I am a relatively new leader and I have tattoos. In fact I have 3 of them (one in which I really regret). When I in uniform (pants not shorts) you can't see any of them, most people don't know about them. In fact no one at my job or church knows because they have never seen me in shorts. When I took the boys for our pack to Webelos Resident camp, I went swimming with them because they asked me too and all of the boys in a patrol (and a few parents) got to see them. One is the Japanese sign for "menace", one is a scorpion (birth sign), and one was a nickname in high school (I do regret that one). All of my tattoos came before I was 20 and I probably won't get any more of them. There is nothing offensive about them, now it is a waste of money to me. When the kids asked about the tatoos I took the time to talk to them about how some descisions they make can last forever. I even used the Japanese one to entice the boys to take the swim test (they wanted to play) in exchange for the meaning (5 of 11 passed, more than any other group).It has no effect on how I lead or whether I am a good leader. I was smart enough and have told a lot of other youth, that if you are going to get one make sure you don't have it where everyone can see because it makes getting a job harder. Nobody wants to walk in for an interview with "BUTCH" tatooed across their fore arm (even if their name is Butch).

anarchist: I respect your point, but these are not boy scouts, they are cub scouts. Webelos between about 9 and 11, the whole weekend (thursday evening through Sunday afternoon) was geared specifically toward them. That is why they truthfully will get our return business. If it where a troop, you are correct, I would not be back at least for a couple of years. eolesen: Too caught up with members first? It is a BSA camp offering a cub event, ROTC should not have been there, we did not just choose to take our boys there, the council set it all up, of course BSA should be first. Yes, the ROTC needed the main camp area, but so did we. We should have alter activities and have to tell the boys not to have patrol yells while passing by, it was called Webelos Resident Camp, not Webelos/ROTC Resident camp. As for crossing campsites, there is a dirt road down the middle of the campsite portion of the camp, with sites on both sides, they wouldn't have been crossing campsites anyway. To tell 9 and 10 year old boys, hey isn't hiking fun, aren't you learning a lot while we trek as fast as possible back and forth, that just won't fly. We lost all of our patrol time because it was spent hiking. No campsites are right on top of the dining hall, the closest one is about 1/4 mile, ours was 3/4 a mile. We had to hurry boys along so we wouldn't be late, hurry up and choose a patrol name and yell, because we had no real time.

Okay Bob and Fscouter: If the new PTC knot is not about money, they why is it new? Why not retro people who have already been there? Because they are trying to increase revenue, hoping that offering knot will entice people to attend (which judging from the comments of you 2 works). I am not implying that PTC is not good training, or even that is isn't worth the money, but to offer a knot that is finicially not available to many is buying a knot. I respect knots, I think they are a great incentive to leaders and a great example to the boys, but just like the James West Fellowship Award. If you have the $$$ you can get a knot. I can promise you (and you both know it) that there will be people with this knot in a few years who can't even tell what classes they took or what they learned.

FScouter: I have read the requirements for the new Philmont knot. Not to get too deep into because this is not the forum for that but you either have to attend twice, recruit 3 people to attend and teach a course on what you learned or attend 3 times, recruit 3 people and share what you learned (again abriged for time reasons). I live in East Coast, I can't fly out New Mexico and then spend $300 plus for a training course just to get a knot. The teaching or sharing of information is the only part that doesn't involve money. Just a way to generate revenue, they might as well say make a $1000 donation to PTC.

I just received my "Trained" patch in May. JM is correct, you must have: Youth Protection Fast Start New Leaders Essentials Cub Scout Leader Specific to be "Trained". Having OWL (Oudoor Webelos Leader) training is great to have and will really help you out though. Webelos camping really steps it up and having OWL helps you be prepared to assist them in success.

NJ: You are right in most instances in saying: "Even apart from "adult life", this is certainly the case in school and it is the case when passing requirements in the Boy Scouts. However, it is not the case in the Cub Scout advancement program -- the rule is "do your best." Your best. It is a subjective standard, but that's ok for an 8-year-old." However, in Webelos the activities pins have requirements set up much like boy scout merit badges. There are clear requirements and objectives set that the boy should attempt to achieve. I will award a badge if a birdhouse looks like an ashtray, I will award a whittling chip for a bear that has no legs, but I can't award something (especially something as prestigious as rank or at least is supposed to be prestigious) when a requirement simply has not been done or not completed. All those involved, please remember we are getting into a hypothetical situation here. Lets take the Aquanaut Activity Badge, one requirement is to swim 100 feet. If a boy tries his hardest and can only get 75-80 feet, then I will credit him because he did his best. However, if he does 25 feet, I can't award that, it is simply not close enough to factor in effort, even if it is his best. In the shooting sports pins there is a requirement for shooting a certain score, why have the score or standard if you will except something below that. The bottom line is "do your best" is a personal achievement and has personal rewards not always physicl rewards. If I provide alteratives then I brake BSA guidelines on altering a requirement, so what do you do when "do your best" is not enough. I reward my son and my den with praise and other activies when they "do their best" but I can give out rank and other achievements that are specific because Little Johnny can't swim. The parents have responsiblities and obligations to their scouts to and sometimes they have to held accountable when they fail. As far as making extra accomidations, like meeting with a parent and child on a Saturday to help one on one (no YP violations) with an achievement he missed or is struggling with, I will always go the extra mile when I am able. There is no direct guidelines here and again everything is hypothetical anyway, but as the DL I am intrusted to lead this boys and get them ready for boys scouts. Giving our ranks to appease or pacify a boy who really didn't do the requirements is not my responsibility, that certainly won't happen in boy scouts (at least not in our parent troop). Parents in my den (those who attend) know me and what I expect, I am not a Scout Nazi dictating it must be done this way and at this time or no award, I am getting these boys ready for boy scouts and life. Besides if there is some one who thinks they can do it better and is willing to prove it, I will step aside and make way for progress.

I know I am going to get and hear for this comment but I believe it to be true, and I won't pull punches on my beliefs. People keeping mentioning the Cub Scout Motto "Do Your Best" and I get that and support it. But, "Do Your Best" does not mean I will win if I try hard or that if you give it your all you will achieve. Truth is that we all know, sometimes you "do your best" and give it you all and fall short. My son does his best but he doesn't make the honor role and that is okay. I have taught my son that sometimes your best is not good enough, sometimes some one is better than you, but you should always do your best so that you feel good and know you tried hard. "Do your best" should upbuild a childs self esteem but not make them think, they win when they really lose. More parents and leaders need to teach kids the value of doing your best and giving it your all is not always a prize but rather something in your heart that no one can take a way.

First off, I think perhaps I was not clear and I do apologize if I mislead anyone it was not intentional I assure you. The original situation involving boys bringing in what they have done to prove they did is true. The second aspect was just a question on how to handle the interpretive part of the rank requirements not an actual situation. I understand not penalizing a boy because his parents won't bring him, but if you just give the rank out despite the lack of being active what does that say. Other boys and parents will question why Little Johnny doesn't have to come to den meetings and they do. A parent should have to explain to their son, Johnny you didn't get rank because we didn't take you (own up to there own short comings). Last year, I drew the card of telling a child he didn't get the WCA because he didn't come to all the meetings and do the requirements. I then went to his parents and explained that if they wanted him to get the award this is what they missed and needed to make up. Basement, I agree with you on saying my son will never get an award he hasn't earned. I as a leader have taken an obligation to these boys to do my best too and I simply won't award something that a boy hasn't earned. I realize not everything can be helped by the boy, but giving a rank diminishes its value and disrespects those who have truly earned it.

I think (despite the swallowing my pride) I will take the advice of the group and calm down before I act. I do apologize for going on such a rant about things. The real point is the boys had fun and want to go back. I will contact council and talk to them about my concerns and try to find out why ROTC got priority and not mention "not returning" to the camp. Yes, Camp Daniel Booone is a large camp and I am sure it takes a lot of money for upkeep and for activities and food. However, I honestly feel that you can't do your own people wrong by bringing in a higher paying (if that is truly the reason) group over another. As far as grounds for discrimination, BSA is a private group there is no such thing as discrimination, they own the camp and can allow or deny who ever they wish, when ever they want. Thanks to good advice, I will handle the situation differently as I head forward. However, my opinion that BSA should come first at a BSA camp will always stand.

I will have to say I agree with OGE on this one, wearing knots shows kids that as adults take pride in wearing our uniforms and in our achievements, so should they. I personally don't have any knots yet but will wear them if and when I get them to show that I earned it. I do think after a while you are just showing off with more than 12 it just looks like you are sending a message that you have a lot of knots and you want people to know it. I do however disagree the new Philmont knot, that is just a knot you buy. Sure it is good training but it really isn't open to everyone just those with enough money to go. It doesn't say I have been to some good training and am working hard to do my best for these boys, it says I have the money to go to Philmont and I got this knot because of it.

Scouting Mom: This is a Webelos den. I went over the new sign off procedures with all the parents last year before they crossed over from bears and I intend to do it again when den meetings start back up. As far as defining Active as registered I can't agree with that. The requirements for the Webelos Badge say to be an active memeber of your Webelos den for 3 months and AOL requirements say to be active in your Webelos den for at least six months since completing the fourth grade (or for at least six months since becoming 10 years old), and earn the Webelos badge. It is pretty clear to me that the expectation is more than just being registered, especially AOL. It is expected that attendance and participation should be there for them to be active. I told the parents that there boys needed to be at den meetings and that is was a part of rank before, and I will bring it back up again. Again, I am not preparing for trouble, I simply am curious how things work. I have no problem communicating with people and I will always address an issue or problem with everyone before I simply deny a boy rank.

I have no way of knowing which group signed up first. The Webelos Resident Camp has been around the same time every year though, so it would probably have been on the calendar for some time. Summer is for sure not the off season around here. It is my firm belief (whether others share it or not) that a BSA Council camp should honor its own before others. BSA has a lot of guidelines regarding Cub Scouts to protect them, then why not in this instance ensure they are taken care of. Again, I don't know if the ROTC paid more money, but it was strongly implied by the staff that this was the case. Webelos had to pay to use the camp. This is a council camp owned and has been for a long time. The boys and I had fun and we will definately being going back next year, by telling council we might not return I am simply hoping this will let them know what they did effected a lot of people and I know some won't return because of it. I am hoping them thinking there pockets will be hurt will fix the situation. I don't have all the information to share with everyone, and I am sorry for that. I do know that a non-BSA group should not be given priority over BSA. If it where boy scouts who where used to hiking it would not be such a big deal but for Cub Scouts it most certainly is. I am hoping that letting council know the concerns of our Pack and others joining in that they will ensure this does not happen again, to anyone.

Does anyone know of any Rangemaster or Shooting sports training near Daniel Boone Council (Western North Carolina) coming up. I really want to get this training down to help out in our council but it is only done once a year before Summer Camps and I missed out. We have several events in the fall and I would like to be able to help, if not I will wait until next spring. Council they may have it University of Scouting in November but they are not sure, is there a way to find out? I am willing to drive some to get the training if it means not having to wait until summer.

The advice I gave to the parents and other leaders (for some reason everyone always comes to me) was either write a letter or give a call (or both) to the Council office and let them know that they enjoyed the camp but campsite situation will probably keep them from attending next year. We are all hoping that maybe if the council gets enough complaints and thinks they are losing money they may fix things. Who knows they may not really be losing any money. Now I know why everyone comes to me, because I always seem to have an answer (thanks to all of you).

Okay, I get what everyone is saying about communicating and be open and honest the whole way with all parties involved. What about when there is interpretation involved. Such as with the being active in your den requirement. Do I sit little Jimmy and his parents down and say, hey Jimmy is missing a lot of meetings and when he is not here he can't be active in the den. I really want him to make his rank but he needs to be here in order to do that. If things don't approve then should I go to the CM and let him know what is going on and what has been down, and we sit down and talk about how to proceed? I am really not trying to be complicated or prepare for a fight, I just want to be prepared for what may come up in the future and how to handle it properly. I love being a DL and I have worked hard so far and will continue to due so, so that the boys and everyone involved can have a productive and positive scouting experience.

Just finished up our Webelos Resident Camp this past weekend and all in all it was a great experience. There was however one thing that left a bitter taste in my mouth and those of many of the adults and boys attending and that is where our campsite was. During our training a few weeks before the event we where informed that there would be a ROTC group there and that it meant we would not have use of some of the camp during their stay and that our campsites would likely be a "little" farther away. When we get to camp we where told we could not use the main field (in the main part of camp) during the day Friday and that our campsites where going to be some distance from the main area, in truth we where about 3/4 a mile from all activities. Each day we made no less than 3 trips back and forth from the campsite to the main area, plus a 10:30 leaders meeting (that ended around 11:15-11:30 each night). In total the boys walked no less than 15 miles which is a lot for 9 and 10 year olds. When we spoke to the director we where told the camp made the decision where to put our camps and they had no control over it. Turns out that ROTC paid a lot of money to use our camp and that the Cub Scouts just didn't get priority. Non-BSA ROTC got priority over council Cub Scouts because of money issues. It left many of us wondering if we go back next year.