PACK15NISSAN

Beavah (and those who agree) have hit the nail on the head here and kudos to you all for having the guts to stand up for what is right and say what so many think but would not dare say. I have not had much experience at the troop level but will soon, however I see this problem come up a lot with Cub Scouts. We teach them at such a young age that this is all you have to do to earn this. Rather than showing the boys that this is the intent of the badge and here is what you can do. BSA leaves several things up for interpretation and they obviously expect for a reasonable human being (or at least a properly trained one) to interpret things in a manor that will help and push the boy in a positive direction. I realize I am probably behind with this, but our Long Rifle (local council paper) had a spot where it described what being active is. I came off after reading feeling that there might as well be an online scouting program. Where boys who don't want to really interact with others can do the stuff at home at their own pace with only minimum checking in with the SM or den leader. Don't get me wrong, I know that kids have a lot going on and that scouts has competition from sports and many other time consuming activities. But do we need to dumb down everything so badly as to say as long as you pay up and have a SM conference that you can achieve rank? Are we looking for a sucessful program or for numbers? I don't know about today, but when I was a kid if I didn't go to practices and only showed up for games my coach would have me riding the pine. Instead we cater to everyone and everything saying that "we can't add to the requirements" by actually requiring a boy to attend meetings. We are raising a generation of boys who will do, look for, and expect the minimum. If these boys apply to real life they will soon find out what your boss says, you do, whether or not it is in the requirements for your job, because he is the boss. I am blessed to have parents who stand behind me when I push the boys to do a little more and when I expect more because I know they can do it and it will make them better. I think BSA needs to change the CS motto to "Do the Minimum" and the BS motto to "Do a Good Turn when it is Convienent".

By the book you are not supposed to hold to leadership positions at once, but if it is necessary you can do two jobs you would just be a registered leader for only one of those positions. On the practical side of things, doing more than one job can often be taxing and can cause you to get frustrated and even burned well before your time. You will definately want some good help so that you don't spend all your time doing things for scouting and forget to enjoy it with your son. As far as which position you should register for that is complicated. You have to have a registered CM and a registered DL, however since you are moving into Wolfs, you should have at least one leader registered as a DL. If that is the case then register yourself as the CM and simply do both roles. As far as which patch to wear, I would personally where the CM patch, especially if that is the position you register as. I have been doing the ACM, WDL, and Advancement Chair, along with some side work for a while now, and keeping everything straight and still keeping it fun can be hard. I am working on shedding some of these coats, but often times you will find it is easy for leadership to pile stuff onto a willing leader than to find and train some one new. Even though having just one person for each position is what is best often times it is not practical nor easy to do.

geilerc has it exactly right. When I boy moves into the program no matter what rank, the first thing they need to do is earn their Bobcat rank. At Webelos level this should only take a couple of weeks if the boy is reasonably with it. In the past we have had one of the ADL work with any new boys on their Bobcat after and/or before meetings so they don't miss out on Webelos stuff. The boys often move faster if when new if you are helping them and sted of telling his parents, here do this. The second thing to do is for him to start working on Webelos requirements. If he is starting as a first year Webelos now, then he will have some pushing to do to get to AOL before he moves up to Boy Scouts but it can be done without a terrible strain on those involved. I would simply outline what the requirements on with both the boy and his parents and make sure they have your email or phone number for questions and he should be able to get to the Webelos rank by the time scouts starts up in again in the fall. The only ranks are just missed. There have been cases where people have gone back and done the stuff they missed, however that is not what you are supposed to do. The books outline that each rank should only be worked on while in that grade level or den, not before or after they move up.

Okay, first I am not knocking woodbadge, so please don't come out with swords blazing assuming that I am saying woodbadge is bad or a waste a time. From my observations at district and council level I just don't see what the big deal is. Again, I haven't done any national training or any training out side of my council, however I have worked with some scouters from other councils, but these are my observations. Is woodbadge really all that is hyped up to be, all that I have seen is it seems to bring people closer together, to form a kind of resource circle for scouters. It doesn't make great leaders, it does seem to make some more assertive, however at best results seem minimal. They way everyone around here boasts, is that woodbadge is the culmination of training for the creme of the crop. I have seen crappy leaders come out slightly less crappy and adequete leaders become decent ones, but it certainly doesn't make some one a better leader. Also, it seems to blow up what some one can do and who some one is because they have this training. During our Webelos resident camp, as a patrol leader I ran into (for the first time) this false notion that woodbadge makes some one a better leader. I went to the camp director to check in a scout who had just arrived and was told that he was in group 1 and to take him to that leader "Mrs. X". I told her that I was the leader of group 1, and that "Mrs. X" helped. She asked if I had taken woodbadge (Mrs. X had), I told her no. She acted like I was a second rate scouter because I don't have this training. I ran circles around Mrs. X and her woodbadge training, if she was an example of what woodbadge teaches I would never take the course. I continue to see this trend in our Pack, Troop, Round-Tables and in other training events. Personally I would consider doing the course but I can't any leanancy on missing the 2 Sunday mornings because I want to attend my own church, not the watered down camp services. (our woodbadge course is 2, 3 day weekends). Not only do I see it in the sucess of my group but I am told it by other scouters and parents that I am a good leader, better than many of the woodbadge people. Maybe our council is running it wrong but does woodbadge make you a better leader? Is is supposed to? What does this course really teach you? I really wish there was a way to get around the whole church issue for me but I guess I am just one person, and I won't compromise my religious beliefs for some training, especially one that seems to be sub par at best.

You can say that I need to chill, but that would be like running around waving a red cape in front of bull and then being upset and blaming the bull for charging you. You began by saying "I would have left your pack too". You may disagree with how I handle things but don't attack me and then get upset when I retailiate. Yes, I would protect my children no matter what! However, in this case all I did was obey the law, we asked if there was anything that we should know and offered to help she simply didn't want to share nor want our help. There is nothing that we could nor should have done differently.

eagle77: Not that this has anything to do with the topic but I do feel the need to defend my position. What the YMCA did in your case was not only wrong and stupid but illegal. If there is no custody agreement than both parents are the legal guardian and you cannot deny rights to one of them based upon the wishes of the other. If this where the case than when I dad was mad at mom he would use the kid against her, denying her the right to see him or vice versa. Not that doesn't happen already but it would become more common practice. Bottom line is that both parents are guardians unless the courts decide otherwise or there is something legally written up that says mom can't get the boy or dad can only pick him up the weekends. I realize this may not be common at the moment but in the near future I think more and more people will see it come up. Frankly eagle77, I wouldn't won't you in my Pack anyway. You sound like the kind of person that ignores the law, whether it is right or wrong, and institutes your own system of justice.

I don't know of rules this violates. As long as there is an adult there, in fact is this boy is not a Tiger than technically no parent has to be at the meeting however it is a good practice to have some one there. If there are a Tiger encouraging having some consistancy with who stays with him would be ideal but it is understood that not all circumstances can be altered in a way that would allow this. It is better to have him in scouting with a different person each week than not to have him at all. As far as camping is concerned the G2SS says this "In most cases, each youth member will be under the supervision of a parent or guardian. In all cases, each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult." That specific adult does not have to be mom or dad, but they do need to be over the age of 18. As far as scoutldr's comment goes, I wouldn't wish that circumstance on my worst enemy. We lost a scout of that very problem (custody problems. Mom came to me at the first meeting and said that she and her ex alternated weeks with "Johnny" and that we both try to be consistant in getting him to scouting. Several months past and mom came to me after dropping of Johnny and said that dad can't pick him up and not to let him. I handed my den over to my assistants and took mom and we along with the CC and CM had a quick talk (I am also the ACM) about why dad couldn't pick him up and if there anything we needed to know. We then explained that we cannot deny access to the child without paperwork showing that dad couldn't have him. Turns out there as no custody agreement and this next part led to us losing the scout. We kindly told her that legally we could not deny dad access and that we would be happy to help them both through the CO in anyway we could. She not so kindly told us this was crap and that she would be taking her son and leaving. Bottom line if it is custody problem, try your best not to get involved. I know sometimes you have to, but trust me you don't want the mess it can bring in your program. Other than that, no worries on who brings the boy as long as they are responsible.

Thanks for all the help everyone, I think I was on the right track, I just really wanted to assure myself by having some one else in the boat per say. I will make sure if the boys show improvement, be it nominal or just in technique they will earn their badge. As far as the comment on not not having to do it but on day 1 and day 31 and that I making it too hard. If the boys can't handle doing the exercises 4 times (once a week for a month) then they aren't going to be able to handle Boy Scouts at all. The purpose of doing it each week was to show them where they needed to practice and improve, to help them get the proper technique down, and to work as a patrol toward a common goal. All stuff a good Webelos leader should do. I have made sure the boys understand that first or last it doesn't matter, as long as they improve and work hard. Doing it 2 times just to get a badge, that is not only lazy but defeats the whole purpose of scouting. I am not trying to create badge collectors, who simply work hard enough to get a badge and move on, I am working on making successful scouts. I can guarentee you that my boys have done better doing this as a patrol than they would have if they did it individually.

Herms, Let me see if I understand what you are saying. I will use an example of curl-ups: Week 1 - 30 Week 2 - 35 Week 3 - 40 Week 4 - 32 So in this for this example, are you saying this is improvement and this part of the badge should be checked off on?

Well I am still not quite sure why they require pull-ups for this badge. I know it is designed to get them ready for Boy Scouts, but there are not a lot of 4th or 5th graders who do even one correct pull-up. I have several boys who play multiple sports and are very fit for their age and they still can't do a pull-up. Seems to me that they should change it to a dead arm hang or something else that tests upper body strength more in a 10-11 year old range.

I did a search on this and found a post on the Webelos Athlete Badge, however it did not cover my questions, so I thought I would post it to see what everyone thinks. My den is working on the physical requirements of the Webelos Athlete Badge. We are two weeks into it (I am tracking each boys progress) and I plan to give them hand outs on what they need to how they are doing, so they know where they need to improve. Requirement 5 says: "Do as many as you can of the following and record your results. Show improvement in all of the activities after 30 days." My question is what is improvement? I know the obvious answers, such as doing more push-ups then you did in week one or you walked part of the 1/4 mile on week 1 and now you can run the whole way. Where I have problems are what if a boy improves in week 2 and 3 but at the end of the month doesn't improve over previous times. Is that improvement? Yes, he did improve at some point but overall is that what the badge is looking for? What if I have a boy who simply does not improve an one area? Do, I say work on this or does him improving his push-up technique (doing a more correct push-up) count? I realize that the Cub Scout motto is "Do Your Best", if they try hard and work on things is that enough to say they improved or do the numbers dictate the badge? I don't want to add or take away from the requirements however there is quite a lot of room for interpretation here and I want to give all my boys a fair chance. For those of you who care, I do not show the boys each others score or say who "won" or "lost". Doing it as a den seems to help their teamwork by motivating each other to do better and to help cheer on those who don't do as well.

Well, in 40 years a lot of things change. Perhaps nothing in your district our council has changed or is better run then they are here. Our council has no need for the funds, the don't provide what they should with the money they have, so why we would pass it along to them, so they continue to do a poor job. This money will allow us to compensate for many of the shortcomings of the council and our district. We are planning on getting training material, camping gear for the boys, and allowing for some uniform and camping scholarships among other things. Scouting is a movement, however we I am at, they are not moving very fast.

Our Council allowed our Webelos to attend (particpate and camp) the Council Camp-o-ree last year. In the past they have said that it helps prepare them for the patrol method. This year however, they have said no Webelos (neither camping or participating). They didn't give me a reason, so we registered our boys anyway and are planning on attending. If they "catch us" then I will ask again for a reason. To me it is crazy to say yes one year and no the next but we seem to think it has something to do with the fact that last year they only had 2 Webelos Patrols (our Pack and one other) and our Pack won the whole thing. I think they may want to save face by just eliminating us all together. Whatever the reason I guess the Council has full say in the matter since they are running it. I don't know if the G2SS is any reason to say no Webelos (especially if they have allowed it in the past) because isn't the G2SS a guideline and not a set of rules?

For what it is worth we only discussed the DQ option with the Pit Officials (leaders) and no one except the parent/child involved was informed. We usually give back the papers that we keep track of score on but didn't this year so we keep things under wraps. We did our best to fix the mistake and to let everyone know about. To all the other boys and parents present, they just assumed that car didn't win.

For what it is worth we only discussed the DQ option with the Pit Officials (leaders) and no one except the parent/child involved was informed. We usually give back the papers that we keep track of score on but didn't this year so we keep things under wraps. We did our best to fix the mistake and to let everyone know about. To all the other boys and parents present, they just assumed that car didn't win.

I have stated multiple times that we are using our own Pack Rules. We do use some of the guidelines that come in the box, but not all of them. Therefore I nor any other leader broke any rules by DQ'ing the boy after he passed inspection or not giving him a chance to fix the problem. The only reason I fell bad is because the father made the mistake not his son. The boy probably had no clue and thought it was great that he was racing with his dads wheels. Again, I admit that we should have caught it but a rule is a rule. So I guess the lesson that some of you wish to teach the boys is that it is okay to break a rule as long as you don't get caught, or at least if you don't get caught in the first hour. No wonder there are so many problems with the youth of this country look at the leaders we have teaching them. Thanks to all of you who provided real feedback both positive and negitive. To those who just want to critisize I will give you my cell phone number and you can feel free to call me up and we will talk about how much better your Pack is. Email me at Ethan@simsengineers.com with you problems regarding my pack and I will email you back with my cell #.

jet526, Have you been to my Pack? Are You in my Pack? No, so shut-up man. You can hear the small portion I have told you and make a stab at how my Pack is run. People like you who claim to let the boys do everything rarely do, and when the actually do it is only because they are to lazy to do it themselves. Do our kids have fun, of course they do, they love the pinewood derby. Do we let them put the cars on the track, no way. If you let your cub scouts do so much, great for you, personally I think that is just stupid but it is your choice. Do you let your boys teach other how to get their Whittling Chips? Do you let them book and pay for you camping trips? Come on now let the boys have some fun, give them the credit card and a knife and see how much fun they will have. Your post was not necessary and frankly you pissed me off. I am glad I am not in your Lord of the Flies Pack.

Yes, 5K is a lot of money. Our CO is a church and in the past we have had no problems with people donating to the church, using their tax id and then they forward us the funds. I know if the council gets a hold of that money, whether or not it is stated that it is to go to our Pack or not, they will end up keeping all or part of it, which is just not right. I hesitate on doing a plaque. Only because they are giving us money, why would we then take money to get a plaque made for them, I know we a plaque is relatively cheap but doesn't that defeat the purpose? I think we are going to have the boys do something for the company, either a service project or make something to show them our appreciation.

BeaverIII, I definately agree that the derby should be fun and that it should be for the boys. That is why we created an adult race this year so that parents might not take over there son's car in a hope to regain their glory days or in obsession to win. I think giving some of the dads a chance to race helped them let the boys do more on their own cars. It may not be true in all packs but in ours the derby is a big deal. It seems to always come with some bit of controversy. Last year we told a boy that he had the wrong axles on his car (he was using a full axle not the "nails" that come with the kit which is against our rules). The boy told his dad who promptly jumped to the front of the check-in line and started yelling and screaming at us that our rules where "crap" (his words) and that our pack was stupid and they where leaving. We told him we where sorry that it upset him so much that yes he would be leaving. His son ended up getting the right axles and racing while dad stood outside and watched. Oh, and the former CM is still a leader. He was not in the pits, so he wasn't involved with the voting which I am guessing is his problem.

So basically if it is either the funds for us or a knot for them. Well thanks for the info., not what I wanted to hear but none the less it is an answer. I guess we won't be mentioning the knot to them because we don't want the council taking our unit money. BTW, yes they will be making the contribution to our CO with the money going to the scouts.

Not really sure if this is best place to post this but I am hoping I can get an answer to my question. We have a leader whose company is looking to donate to our Pack. This contribution would be around $5,000. I was talking to him and saying that we might be able to present the company with a James West Fellowship Award for their contribution. Is this right? This is the information I got from US Scouts: James West Fellowship Award - Worn by those honored for their personal donation of a minimum of $1000 to a local Council Endowment Fund, or honored by others with such a donation If they make the contribution to the Pack would they still qualify? Would they qualify for 3 awards? We do not want this company going through our council because we know they will take a part if not all of it. We already send more money to the council through FOS and popcorn than any other Pack in the Council. We want this money for our Pack to do things for our Pack. I don't think getting the award is going to sway them one way or the other but I want to know before I tell them anything.

Our rules are handed out to each parent in writing and they state that: "Cars must use the stock BSA wheels that are provided with the Pinewood Derby Car Kit. No after market wheels are allowed". It goes on the say that: "Wheels may be lightly sanded on the rolling surface, to remove burrs and/or small defects. The BSA logo must remain visible on the outside edge". There are more but these are the two that we pointed out to the parent. I don't see a whole lot of play or room for convienant interpretation in our rules. Yes, the inspectors made an error, but to be fair to them they where checking in over 50 cars and missing one thing (only the front wheels had been changed) out of all those cars wasn't bad. Once cars are inspected and checked in, they go to our pits and they cannot be returned. If there is taken out of the pits, they must be re-inspected. Only leaders are allowed in the pits. Nothing car be done to the cars once they are in the pits, even if a wheel falls off (which has happened to at least one car the past 2 years) it can't be fixed. The only exception is if we have a car that won't even finish the track, we want to keep it fair but also fun. My issues are like this. Only the front wheels had been changed, an obvious and intentional thing. I don't think they where trying to cheat but he had to think the wheels on his old car where faster than the present day wheels or why change them. The other thing is that the police give out tickets for running traffic lights when they didn't see it, the person was merely caught on the traffic camera (in some places). Did we see it? NO. But did he still break a rule? YES. Should the other boys he beat suffer because this kids car got through inspection? I lean toward no but I am not sure at this point. Should the boy whose dad made a mistake and had no chance to fix it have to suffer? No Maybe we should have given him the chance to put on a different set of wheels.

We just ran our annual pinewood derby on Saturday and given some changes that where made from years past most things went pretty smoothly. Until the very end. Let me give some background as to how our derby works. Each car runs 4 races within its den (once in each lane) and then the 3 cars in each den with the lowest score (1 point for first, 2 for second, etc.) are moved up to the finals. Since we have 6 dens, we ended up with 18 cars in the finals. Each car is then numbered from 1-18 and a matrix is used to race each car 4 times to determine an overall pack winner. Everything ran great until the end. During the last race, cars that had finished there 4 runs had there scores tallied up. There was a tie for first and since I designed the system I was asked how to break it. The entire race I was on a ladder setting cars on the track and racing them while the leaders of each den staged them. I went back to explain and noticed that one car had "illegal wheels" on the front. Our Pack pinewood derby rules (which was handed out to every parent when there boy got there cars, weeks before the race) state you must use the BSA wheels that come in the box. These wheels where not, so I called the parent over to tell him the problem. He informed they where wheels from his derby car 30 years ago and that he didn't know they weren't supposed to be used. Anyway, we had a quick leaders conference and a vote whether to keep the car or to disqualify it. It was a unanimous decision to disqualify, I told the parent and he suprisingly wasn't too mad (probably reacted better than I would have). After the race, the former CM (who somehow found out what happened) said that wasn't fair and since we inspected the cars we should have let it race. His opinion was that it was our fault and that once it goes into the "pits" it should stay no matter what. Did we over react? Should we have done something different? Considered something we didn't? I have an idea to eleviate this problem in the future. I am going to make each parent sign a log saying the have received, read, and understand the Packs pinewood derby rules before there boy gets a car. I will also mention during our Pack Meeting before the race and go to each den to make sure everyone has a copy, read, and understands the rules before the race. Anyone got a better idea? I want the derby to be a fun experience for all so I really want to try to avoid problems. I know that there will always be something but I can at least try to minimize it.

Obviously the TheScout stand is doctrinal and not Biblical. The Bible does say that all have sinned, of course some Christian religions (I dare say all) over look the parts that either they personally don't agree with or that there doctrine doesn't agree with. TheScout, if you have an scriptural basis for agruement, please do share and prove me wrong.

Neal, That may be what your council says and/or allows but our council requires flush toilets. If I where to fill out a form where sanitary toilets where within 300 feet, they would still want to know if they where flush toilets. Perhaps it is different where your at, wish it where different here.