PACK15NISSAN

At this point in time we have no intentions on splitting the pack, we will thin out some, but no matter what we have worked hard to have a strong pack and don't plan on handing half of it over. What I meant by the statement they don't "show well" is that there presenation of themselves comes across a little brash. The husband is unshaven most of the time, they don't iron their uniforms and only wear part of it (that is all they can afford), and they smell like cigerette smoke (they don't smoke around any of the boys though). Is it fair for us to tell these leaders who have worked hard to become trained and stepped when no one else would that they need to step down because other parents don't care for their appearance? We have already spoke with each set of parents individually and the consensus is the leaders don't appear to know what they are doing. One parent even said the leaders come across "creepy" and make them "uneasy". I explained they are trained, the not only know what they are doing but do a great job ensuring the boys advance and enjoy scouting but it doesn't seem to matter. These parents simply don't want their boys in that den. If we let the parents/boys choose we have one den with about 20 boys, one den with 2-3, and another with 2-3. The boys in the den that everyone wants to be in where in the same den last year, so we want to keep those 8-10 boys together. I don't see a way around talking to the leaders and putting our foot down with the parents.

Perhaps I was not clear. The boys father told his old pack did not use internet advancement and therefore his advancement would not be on ScoutNet. I don't know how the old council worked but the dad told me that he already tried to get the paperwork from the previous council and they don't have it. He should have a card for each activity pin and his rank right? I think I am going to ask if he has those and get copies of them. Of course this will mean that any partial badges will be lost but I guess that is the penalty for losing his book.

You can always tell when scouts start back up again because the problems just roll in with the boys. Our pack has grown significantly this year to 110-120 boys compared to around 60-70 last year. With that growth we are having to make multiple dens at each rank. Currently we have 2 (working on a third) Tiger dens, 2 Wolfs (possibly needing a third), 3 Bears, 2 Webelos 1's (need a third but probably won't happen), and are at the breaking point for 2 Webelos 2 dens. I am the WDL, also the ACM, and will end up being the CM when my Webelos 2's cross over in February. I say that so you know that I have a stake in this converstation and a role with solving the problem. Our problem begins in the Bears, where we had 2 dens for the first 3 meetings, which was through last night. We identified a leader and where working on splitting the boys up when our current CM makes a comment that several parents in "Den 2" (second Bear den) called him on his cell phone throughout the week past and said they wanted to be switched to "Den 1" because they didn't like the leaders in "Den 2". The leaders of "Den 2" are trained and actually have more training than a lot of our other leaders and there is no issue with them doing something wrong or with the program, these parents simply stated they didn't like the leaders and they got a bad vibe from them. These leaders where the only parents to step up when the boys where Tigers (about 10 boys at the time), so they experience with Cub Scouts under their belts. Our CM bought us a week to work on the problem by telling the parents we where in the process of splitting from 2 dens to 3. My inital reaction is since there is no safety or program problems that the parents should not be allowed to switch. I would prefer to tell them nicely that if they wish to talk to leaders of Den 2 with the CM, ACM (myself), the CC, and/or the COR we can arrange that. Second option if they don't want to that is they can sign up as DL's and help out. Third is move down the road because these people stepped up when no one else would and have a heart for scouting they just don't "show well". Has anyone ever had this problem? What should we do?

I have a transfer that just joined my Webelos 2 den, he moved here from out of state. His dad said they searched high and low but somehow in the move their book got lost. He asked me what kind of proof that his son achieved certain badges and achievements he needed to provide me with. His son has activity badge pins on his Webelos colors and his Webelos Badge on his uniform but other than that they have no way really prove what he has done. Of course he said the pack he came from was small and did not use internet advancement which would provide digital proof. My response to him was to tell him that a scout is honest and trustworthy, and expect that a parent should be too, especially one that wants his son to learn those type of morals. Then I told him to have the old WDL to email with what he earned and that would work for me. He then informed me that having the former WDL email might be a problem but he would see what he could do. I know of people want to cheat then they will and if where any other badge besides AOL it probably wouldn't bother me as much (it would still bother me though). I just don't want to think that I gave Cub Scouts highest honor to someone who doesn't deserve it. I have no reason to think he would lie but we have only had 2 meetings so I really don't know the dad well enough to assume either way. Is there a better way to handle this?

Obviously the ideal situation is to coordinate schedules to parents/boys don't have to choose. If you do have a den campout and a pack campout on the same date then parents with boys in other ages group will probably end up taking their boys to the pack, if that is even an issue. Realisticly and practically speaking, to me a den campout for Webelos is far better than a pack campout. They are more focused around the Webelos, what they want and are able to do and toward their advancement. It also allows the boys to bound more as a patrol and get them ready for Boy Scouts which is a WDL's goal. This is why all leaders attend the calendar planning sessions in our Pack and perhaps you can do this in the future. However, for now I would just go on as planned.

John, Our COR is a paper figure only, we only see maybe once or twice a year. The only time he steps in is when there is a problem with the scouts and the facility. It is not our packs job to help another pack start up. I agree that if there are enough parents and boys to start a new pack that is closer for them then to do it. But for us to use our resources to help them do this, especially after they just flopped a few months ago is crazy. As far as the recruiting booth, we are not allowed on school property at this particular elementary. We have scouts and scouters in uniform stand on the sidewalk and hand out fliers as people come in. It has all our recruiting information as well as telephone numbers if they have questions. Our UC was present, he helped some but like I said we pretty much have everything under control. The only reason the DE was there was because she asked to be. She is relatively new and wanted to help (she is also a scout parent in our Pack). My main problem is that she didn't really want to help, she wanted to do something that she never talked with anyone about and then we she didn't get to do it she left. Plus, she made rude comments about how we recruit which given the results is quite effective. Short, Don't get me wrong I have nothing against starting a new pack and a know that we really don't have any control over it. What irks me is tha she wanted us to do the work so she can get the credit. It is wrong for us to recruit new scouts do all the leg work and then he whisper in their ear that she wants to start a new pack closer to home for them. If that was the intention she should have stated that upfront and we wouldn't have recruited from that school.

John, Our COR is a paper figure only, we only see maybe once or twice a year. The only time he steps in is when there is a problem with the scouts and the facility. It is not our packs job to help another pack start up. I agree that if there are enough parents and boys to start a new pack that is closer for them then to do it. But for us to use our resources to help them do this, especially after they just flopped a few months ago is crazy. As far as the recruiting booth, we are not allowed on school property at this particular elementary. We have scouts and scouters in uniform stand on the sidewalk and hand out fliers as people come in. It has all our recruiting information as well as telephone numbers if they have questions. Our UC was present, he helped some but like I said we pretty much have everything under control. The only reason the DE was there was because she asked to be. She is relatively new and wanted to help (she is also a scout parent in our Pack). My main problem is that she didn't really want to help, she wanted to do something that she never talked with anyone about and then we she didn't get to do it she left. Plus, she made rude comments about how we recruit which given the results is quite effective.

We just recently had our Fall recruiting at our local elementary school. We are in a relatively small but growing town and have 2 elementaries (one that won't even let us in the doors, only pass out fliers to drivers during meet the teacher) and another elementary that we inherited in a town about 10-15 away because their pack folded last year. We are good sized pack (the biggest in our district and probably close to the biggest in our council) and had about 50-60 parent/child combos show up. I did the timeline of a boy and gave the speech that with a pack this size we need leaders not just boys. We ended up with 45 signing up that night and a few more at our den meeting the next week. We recruited 2 leaders and are in the works of a few more. In total our pack is now around 110-120 boys, but the year is young and we will probably thin out a little. My problem is with the DE, during this whole ordeal she seemed supportive on the outside but her actions show otherwise. She wanted to take the kids from the school in the next town who signed up and form a new pack even though they just folded last year. That area is very poor and even though they might have the boys they won't have the money to do what we do. I know that she needs to open a certain number of new units but IMHO that is just wrong to take them after they have joined our unit. It was kind of like, you do the work and I will take the credit which needless to say isn't building a good relationship with our pack. Secondly, she made comments to other leaders about how she felt my timeline of a boy was inappropriate and not an effective way to recruit leaders. Shortly after she left, not even helping us with sign ups. Our pack is pretty much self-sufficient. We can handle sign ups just fine but we don't understand why she would come saying she was there to help and then just leave. She said she had never seen anything like it before, referring to the numbers and how we did things. Perhaps it caught her off guard and she wasn't prepared and didn't know how to help or felt she wasn't needed. The other issue is her son is in our pack so she attends den meetings almost every week (sometimes she sends her husband). How should this be handled? Do we ignore it, mention it to her, let her boss know, we don't want to cause problems but as the DE she shouldn't be treating our pack so disrespectfully.

ScoutNut, IMHO counting Webelos only camping toward summertime pack is cheating the system. Just because the pack promotes it, the entire pack is not able to attend. Since only Webelos can go it is a den or patrol activity despite who promotes it. Our pack promotes our Webelos Resisent camp but too but we would never try to count it as a pack activity. If the Bears are going to a climbing center to climb and it is mentioned a pack meeting to increase attendance is that a pack activity. No! It is den activity. If you are counting things the way you are then I am sure everyone in your pack has the summertime pack award and it really means nothing but in our pack few have it and kids work hard to stay active so they can get it.

A Pack event does not have be something that everyone attends, nor does it have be something that at least so many people from each rank attend, it should be something that at least all ranks have the oppurtunity to attend though. This was my original post. As I stated, I don't think everyone in the pack has to attend an event for it to count, nor should at least so many people from each rank have to attend for it to count. What really matters is that the event was open to everyone. Such as in our case, Webelos could attend the Resident Camp and no one else could. That is not right to count that because the Pack could not attend only certain boys.

I think many of you misunderstand what I was saying as far as counting Resident Camp as a summer Pack activity (except for SctDad). It is really not right to count something as a Pack event if not all the Pack is eligiable to attend. In our case resident camp is for Webelos only so to count that as Pack event even though multiple boys from our Pack went isn't right because Tigers, Wolves, and Bears could not attend. A Pack event does not have be something that everyone attends, nor does it have be something that at least so many people from each rank attend, it should be something that at least all ranks have the oppurtunity to attend though. Counting Cub Day Camp, no problem there, all ranks can go so it becomes a Pack activity.

Although we haven't finished completely we have used Leather bracklets Baskets (acutally ended up being the hardest for the boys) Bamboo Windchimes Hot dog/marshmellow roasters (bent coat hangers with handle) for the non-wood projects. We also used pinewood derby cars for one of the wood projects and we haven't done the last wood project but the wood ones are usually easier.

Our Council told me the main reason why Webelos weren't allowed at Camporee was that the Boy Scouts where doing shootgun, rifle, and axe throwing which Cub Scouts are not allowed to do. Which made me feel a lot better about being told we couldn't go. As far as attending a Boy Scout campout, there have been no problems here. Our Boy Scouts only take the 2nd year Webelos so they don't have as many young boys to worry about and it helps give them more one on one time. Pack212Scouter, I believe you have misread the requirements for AOL. It states that a boy must attend at least one Boy Scout-oriented activity. We have used our Webelosree and our Webelos Woods (Webelos resident camp) for those requirements. Both orient the boys into patrols and self-sufficiency including cooking their own meals. Our CM has made this mistake too and in fact scared half my parents because of it, which took a meeting of parents to clear up the actual requirement.

SctDad, To be fair you shouldn't count Resident Camp as a Pack activity since not all can attend. Since your Tigers are not allowed to participate that really doesn't make it a Pack activity, where I am at it is considered a Council event not a Pack activity. They do this mainly because we don't camp as a Pack nor do we really spend anytime as a Pack. Struax, Once your boys cross over from Wolves to Bears then any activity they do (even during the summer) counts toward their Bear achievements.

Our district is the largest in our council. I am not sure exactly how many packs we have but at least 20. Several packs come to RT and are very involved with the training, no problem with support there. Others come when there is a big training they need, and others I have never heard of because they don't attend anything. I am hoping to either go to a Pack meeting for these hard to reach Packs or at least sit down with the CM and talk to them about what training really is and what we offer to help them and their leaders. Obviously I will push our 2 trainings a year, and the training at U of S, which I will be a part in. I am hoping to attend our Council Scout Show, at least pop in for the UC training and get to as many other Council/district events as I can. I want people to know who I am and for me to know who they are. I don't want to come across as some district guy you can't talk to, I would rather have people running up to ask me questions I know that I am easy to talk to.