ozemu

The article you quote could have been written here sctmom. Our latest drive to get the 'cool' back involves a big uniform change and an update to the program rotates through every three years or so. But there is no drive to change our market base, increase leader numbers or get 'oomph' into meetings. To me the uniform is a down point but not a huge obstacle - once kids attend most couldn't care less. The thing is to get them to come the first time.

Try http://www.scoutingmilestones.freeserve.co.uk/

Yes. We have had women as Cub Leaders for decades and as Venturer/ Rover Leaders since 1973 but only since about 1988 for other Sections when girls were allowed at all levels. Obviously there are pro's and con's but on the whole I think that it is a better preparation for society which is after all about 50% female. Actually the main problem is that girls are often much better organised and therefor basically run the Troop even when they are in even or less numbers.

Hell! what happened to the paragraphs? I suggest you copy to a word processing pack and edit. That looks awful!

Handbook: our own but in my opinion needs a rewrite. Ages: 6-8 Joeys 8-11 Cub Scouts 10.5 -15 Scouts 14.5-18 Venturers 17-25 Rovers 18 - ? (60 I think) Scouter The overlap allows us to progress individuals as it suits them. We do not progress our scouts as a group unless by coincidence. Last Going Up from the Cub Pack to my Scout Troop was for two girls. I expect about 5 boys and girls about mid year. Obviously we are coed. Joeys is a one hour weekly program without rank or badges. Cubs is weekly 1.5 to 2 hours and a camp each term (quarter) approx. Cubs progess to Seconder (one stripe) and Sixer (2 stripes) in their group of 4-8 cubs (called a Six!) Each six has a single colour identification badge. Advancement is through three boomerang badges Bronze, silver , Gold which correspond to ages 8-10. Also achievement badges are optional and are coloured red, blue, green for ages 8-10 but this is not rigid. My Son got his green swimming the other night and he is 8 my daughter got a red cyclist last year when she was 9. Top award is a gold cord work n on the left shoulder and is worn when the Cub 'goes up' to scouts. Must have gold boomerang, attend a scout camp, do citizenship, first aid badges and n environmental project I think. Daughter part way through now. Scouts is 2 hour weekly with about 2-3 camps/activities per term. I have 3 Patrols of 4-5. Aiming for 6 (Max 8 per patrol). See our web site at http://www.lis.net.au/~emu/. Includes patrol badges. Ranks are Scout, Assistant Patrol Leader (A/P/L) and P/L. We also have room for a troop Leader which is a way of a senior P/L stepping aside making way for a new P/L and gets the T/L some experience in an adult role. Usually only 3-6 mth position and not required. Patrols are of mixed ages. P/L is normally the oldest etc. Mixed gender also. Cubs who come up are divided amongst existing patrols according to personality etc. Siblings are normally separated. he only concession for girls is that each patrol has 2 tents although some parents have told me they don't really care. A different issue for Venturers (Puberty bites more deeply in that section) Advancement is by 3 levels red = Pioneer, blue = Explorer, Green = Adventurer. See http://www.scouts.com.au/main.html (menu=Discover Scouting!-Badges/Awards-Scouts)for pictures etc. Venturers has the Queens Scout Award which involves a few years work and is similar to Eagle. Queens Scouts get to wear a miniature of the Awrad in Rovers and as a Leader. They also get a certificate from the State Govenor signed by the Queen. (Not really - it's a copy). Rovers has the B-P Award and requires similar effort. We don't have many Rovers or Venturers although there are some big Units and Crews. Uniforms should be on the Scouts Australia site address above. However the standards have changed. It was very military when I was a boy. Now hats are optional and there are a lot of non-uniform uniforms around. I advocate for this. The official items are not strong, expensive and being unisex don't fit anyone. (My gripe - sorry) We are organised in Groups ie 1st Dunoon and have a Group Leader who manages the Section leaders. A parent commitee etc. Most Groups have their own hall - we don't. A group consists of one or more in each section ideally but most are just a Cub Pack and sacout Troop. Each Section (Pack, Troop etc) has a leader and assistants. Ideally one adult per patrol or six. Parents can and do help from time to time but are not needed for the program. In some states Groups are combined in Districts then Areas or Regions and then State Branches. National HQ is really just a figurehead org. Everything is really run by the States and this does produce some strange anomolies. MSw does not have Districts anymore. No wait - apparently they are returning but are much bigger than they used to be. (About 20 Groups per district I think.) We do not have a tradition of annual camps. Our weather makes weekends okay at all time sof the year. I think though that a week long camp in the School holidays would be a good idea and am working toward this. We have four school holidays annually. Three of 2 weeks and one of 5 weeks. We close Scouting for these holidays traditionally although I would like to have some activities. All Scout s and leaders are voluntary. Each state has an executive officer and secretaries numbering about 5-10 and they are non-uniformed and paid. We wish we had paid professionals at Region and District. We do not have charter organisiations. Very rarely is a group sponsored. Money, meeting places and leaders are difficult to source. Leader training is 7 days minimum over three weekends. There is more which is about another 6 days. Finding people to do this up front is not always easy. How was that?

OGE I'm not really sure about the leadership approach. It certainly is not in our national charter - might be in yours. Regardless I find that some scouts thrive on the leadership side and others on the field skills. Others want socialising and for a few they progress form one to another of these every now and then. It depends on the boy and his progression on the boy - adult line. I agree that we cannot be all things to all boys at Troop level. However at one level up I can see that there could be activities that focus on socialising, skills, adventure, leadership. This would leave us in the Troop to do the best we can in the areas that we can make work. My strenghths are skills and leadership - I really don't have the time or energy to go further. But I recognise that some of my Scouts need other stuff. I really mean NEED and I haven't got it in me to help.

Yep, I'm Australian. What would you like to know?

NJCubScouter - I vetoe what is illegal, is way outside parental income or our own fundraising and things that are unsafe. Usually I give boundaries or 'before you go there firstly you need to...' statements that the Scouts use to create workable plans and modifications. My Scouts (remember our oldest are 14) wanted to: go hang-gliding. Vetoed - not a Scout approved activity. go overseas. Accepted and are we working hard! form a third patrol. Accepted with advice that they were short of adequate numbers - now some Patrols are finding camps very hard as one drop out makes a big gap. to tell off one of the boys because of his behaviour. Accepted and I warned the parents quickly. go ten pin bowling. I advised them about cost, relevence to the program they wrote earlier that meeting and they decided against. Yes I influenced that one a lot because they were straying outside there own policy and parents had been talking to me about costs. Personally I let the Scouts go much further than their parents are sometimes comfortable with. I spend quite a bit of time reassuring parents and providing an adult presence without actually being noticed by the Scouts. Yes I have stood behind bushes as Patrols have hiked past! I also drop ideas in the melting pot around campfires etc. For a non-Scout study of what young people can handle see: C. Mortlock, The Adventure Alternative, Cicerone Press, Cumbria, 1987 Sorry I don't know how you might get it outside a University library.

CubsRgr8 - I have found that the Patrol system is best understood by going to the original source documents. They were written for lay people and once you get used to the old style language there is a lot of good stuff. I don't know where you can get it now but I downloaded an entire copy of'Aids to Scoutmastership' and have my own copies of 'Scouting for Boys' from Scout Shops. Maybe try: http://pinetreeweb.com/homepage.htm Although it is a bit clunky.

Same as sctmom I cannot edit immediately after sending as it doesn't recognise my password. Also the edit doesn't give access to the check box requesting notification of replies to my post.

I've been reading this and other similar posts with much interest. Eagle90 - Some of this topic seems to be similar an earlier initiated by Bob White: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=6942. By following a similar process to the one Bob suggests might help define jobs, roles and boundaries for these people. For my own benefit pls - is there a list of adult positions within or attached to Scout Troops that includes job descriptions? I ask because we DO NOT have a tradition of parents being involved as you do. You seem to have 120 000 different recognised jobs for adults and I can't figure out what they involve. Could be useful to me.

Grey Fox, Maybe...but what's a banner exactly. Over here that is a cloth or plastic wall hanging. Little wooden plaques we might have but I'm not sure that there are banners available. Thought I should check as words don't always translate exactly.

Happy to do both. We have a fieldbook and some Leaders manuals. How would a fieldbook each (plus other stuff if you are interested)and you can divide the response so that I get a set? Details direct through emu@lis.net.au Cripes you blokes are quick off the mark!

I have lots of trouble trying to figure out exactly what you people are doing and how to convert your ideas into something I can use. If I could see for myself where you are coming from it would help lots. I have found the MB and advancement requirements at Scouter.org. Particularly I am after: The BSA handbook - I last saw a copy 15 years ago. Same handbook for venturers, explorers etc OA requirements - yes I know it is secret and everything but I have tried to do a similar thing locally here and could use some info. Again my last view was 15 years ago.

You went all night??? Struth. I think I'll give it a go!

No worries here. However as I went through the process I saw reference to editing my backpack and something else. Can't find it now. Anyone know what that is all about and how to access?

Hi Merrit, We have some rough ideas for months out to one year and a major annual focus. We plan in detail only three months ahead. We do not plan in detail any earlier because too many things change...including my work! I work around sporting carnivals and thus must wait for them to come out. The other sections (webelos etc I think you have) get our draft programs so that we can link at least once each program and so that my older scouts can help the cub leader for specific events. This has been excellent in encouraging kids to progress up to the scout troop. We camp locally except for big events so that scouts can attend before and after sport. Might I suggest that you link with another Troop in your area if you want to have bigger numbers for a specific reason? I know that our scouts really enjoy meeting the other scouts but we do not make a habit of this. I echo Chipewa29's comment that advancement makes scouts realise that they are missing out on more than they might first think. It takes a while for this effect to be realised however. Be patient. I started a new troop and was concerned about numbers. More than 20 seems to work best. To give the troop a marketable image I have organised an overseas trip. This has also given us incredible focus although I have often wondered at my sanity. I recommend you focus your annual program on a big event in an interesting place. Choose a Jamboree, summer camp or such to cut back the planning for yourself. It keeps your scouts focussed and it is a pretty cool thing for them to tell their non-scout mates about. Many leaders say that your program alone will attract new members. In my experience (5 different small troops over 15 years) this is not true. Or more correctly it is very slow and your enthusiasm can be severely tested. Get a business person-parent to develop and manage marketing to accompany your program. When we return from Vanuatu I will have articles in every paper, newsletter and tv station that I can find. Even the fund raising activities for our trip has given us a good public profile.

Great info everyone. I've just sent this thread to our other leaders. It will help heaps I'm sure. Keep it coming. For info - to compare your system to ours. Cub Leader training is an initial meeting (2 hrs), and three weekends. Add activity specific days and weekends which are optional. Wood beads is another 3 weekends and project. This is a great hurdle to our prospective leaders.

well done mom. Foot-loose and guiltless!

Momscouter.....WALK. Get going and leave the SM to play his games. You seem to have two options. 1. Deal with the matter (stress) and end up with a small Troop, an uninterested Charter Org, no SM, no gear, no money etc and a long (years) struggle to get things right - which you may lose. 2. Walk.. straight to a good Troop who will welcome your son and yourself, provide gear, provide leadership, friendship, has reasonable financials etc. And your son will have up to 3 old friends from the existing Troop with him....and the old Troop will fold or go to 1 above and may, after a long struggle, be as good as the new Troop. This game is supposed to be fun. The battle you are considering will NOT BE FUN. I have seen a few such problems in and out of Scouts (who hasn't) and the winner rarely feels good about the result. I doubt that you volunteered for the task you are considering . It was forced upon you. The SM has set in train a course with one natural conclusion. Let him wear it.

Our oldest Scouts are under 15 y/o. I still have patrol activities without adults. The Patrols are more limited than Bob's in that I have them camp within three minutes run when in a flat out panic of responsible adults who are briefed by me. I also visit as often as I think I should given the activity and personality combinations - almost always only the once at evening meal time (over night camps are the longest event possible). For more isolated Scout only camps I make an ad hoc grouping of the most experienced. At this point the requirments are pretty much the same as Bob's.

Bob - re: six monthly reviews. I keep forgetting that you blokes have P/L's for short periods. Seems fair enough your way. Still prefer not to write policies though regardless of whether it is a moral, leadership or interpersonal relationship lesson to be learned. This has been an interesting thread. Some good stuff here everybody.

I agree with jmcquilan on the oath and law. In fact I would fight tooth and nail against any written policy for the Troop internally. How can we conduct reasonable discussions based on oath and law if we are following someone else's procedures? This can be messy, emotional and a long and rocky road but it is an excellant learning tool. Every disagreement then goes back to our reading of the oath and law for guidance about what is reasonable for us to do. I could accept bob whites six monthly revisions for large Troops simply so that things can get done instead of endless mediation; but it is not, in my mind, the best solution for the individual scouts moral development. Non-scouting adults and organisations are a different matter. We have no shared oath and law to work with. Policy documents for external Troop matters are needed.

Stan, being from the other side of the world I may be a bit off track here so bare with me pls. I would think you need Hispanic and Anglo Assistant leaders. There may be a way of recruiting Hispanic leaders from other paid and unpaid community organisations. As there sounds like there is a need other orgs may be very helpful. The USA way of having boys in patrols according to age may or may not be useful. I've tried both methods here for different reasons and both work yet one is usually more suitable for given circumstances. I encourage you to think 'outside the square' rather than following what is normal elsewhere. I would think that the boys need to meet each others families to gain a greater understanding of the others culture. Whatever you arrange would need to be a routine thing rather than a one-off. They need to understand and accept each others differences and that takes time. Family camps may or may not work very well. Adults often have more hang-ups than kids. Also if there are not many Hispanic dads the mothers may be reticent to attend. Due to stereotyping women often feel less competant camping and being single mum's (mom's) the degree of uncertainty may be large. On the other hand there are probably uncles and other men in the Hispanic boys lives. They may get involved if the invitations are very open. The mum's might tell you who to invite along. I take it that you are of Anglo origin. Are there Hispanic Troops somewhere near enough that you could visit a few times? You may find ideas that you can use to make your programme multicultural. There may be Girl Scout, sporting or other clubs that are Hipsanic or mixed and you should learn good and not-so-good things from them. The Troop also needs to bond together with things in common. Camping and some adversity may work to this end. They get to know each other based on the individuals merits this way. Camping, paddling and hiking in less than favourable conditions for instance. Maybe the troop can all do a particular badge ie survival(if you still have it) and therefore they will all wear a badge representing the shared arduous activity. Some recognition of the boys efforts by their own community may be useful for self esteem. Something I've seen here is that focussing the programme on a third culture may allow the boys to work together without either feeling threatened or superior. I've seen it work here with white and Aboringinal kids - they worked on American Indian culture. It was school thing but they all got into it. Maybe that could work for you and the local OA Troop may be able to advise you. If money is a problem so might transport etc. So also might uniform and despite the many other comments I've read recently this is an area where you may need to be creative in order to keep the programme accessible. I imagine the discipline, structure and belonging may be the very reasons the Hipanic mom's encourage their boys to attend. The uniform is part of this. However our Aboriginal people (and most low income earners) are very suspicious of any uniform - icluding McDonalds. They revel in their non-conformity. It is worth doing some research on what will be best for your boys and the program. I am in a low income area and I have to watch the costs. Having said that we are going overseas mid year. The cheapest overseas destination I could find. And we have sold a lot of sausages! Given a years notice familes have saved, and scouts have earned a lot of their own cash. My point is that if there is an expensive program idea then work towards it with lots of notice and fundraising. I'm thinking of summer camp for you. A busy scouting program is probably your best option with lots of energetic fun. Hope this helps.

Couldn't see ref to 'be prepared' but this is best site I've seen on early scouting history, how it formed etc. I've mailed the author and he is very helpful. If there is a 'proveable' answer Colin will have it I'm sure. http://www.scoutingmilestones.freeserve.co.uk/