ozemu

Salra I also recommend shopping around for another Troop. The experience of checking other Troops out might help to show that people and organisations are all idividual with different approaches to things (and some get it horribly wrong). When you find the right Troop I know your faith in Scouting (and in humanity) will be reinstored. This is probably a harder road to follow than turning away from Scouts totally but more rewarding in the long run. Certainly I wouldn't bless the present Troop with your presence ever again. Chances are that you are not alone in this at that Troop either.

happy sad wink, thanks dan

When we accept the position of SM (or others) we are charged with doing our best for the Scouts in our care, for leading and showing how things should be done / handled, for using our best judgement in doing good. Being human we get things wrong and will never be 100% on the mark but we should also be able to make decisions on individual cases. A Troop policy of singing for lost items is easily over-ridden by older Scouts and leaders. Younger Scouts will not understand immediately and will need things explained to them. "John, is really shy and signing is a really big deal and pretty scary for him - instead of signing he will..." may teach all the Scouts something useful if done properly. The problem with policies at all levels is that people do not automatically, and many never, question whether the policy fits each individual situation. If you have a Troop policy on singing etc for things then I recommend that: a. You keep it in the Troop as outsiders may not understand - my previous post is a case in point - a regional activity run by an SM who implemented a Troop policy. b. You pause before each occassion that you use the policy to see if it fits. Hard to do when the item turns up on parade but that's when gut feelings should be followed and one reason we want humans as SM's. Personally my gut feelings are sometimes obscure and my snap decisions are normally bad ones. I am sceptical of policies for that reason - they don't always work for me. I prefer to agonise over such decisions (my post "Help - I'm giving up on a boy!" being an example) "Praising in public and criticising in private" is a good policy but being who I am let me illustrate my problem. On the same camp I mentioned (three days ago) one Scout was such a pain that he was asked by the P/L's to leave the Patrol and spend some time with myself so that the Patrol could get on with things. (My suggestion to them - he was making the camp miserable and they had tried often to deal with him) He then ran away and hid for an hour and bit with me searching high and low. After I found him I paused for a while, spoke with my assistant and then held a Patrol meeting. I asked them all how the Patrol was working and deliberately asked them not to concentrate on that day only but to think back on the year. They then all put forward what they saw as the best and worst and how that made them feel. The issues raised were well thought out but the negative points seemed to point at the "pain" of the day. He was quietly crying after this. On finishing I had to explain that some members were refering to other Scouts. One of whom was present. I even mentioned the names (The P/L's keep me well informed) and explained that the "pain" can be a joy to have around and gave examples. He was told to behave the next day or to stop coming for a while. Next day he was fine. I spoke to his dad - as I have often do about this boy's behaviour. In this example the boy was hugely embarrassed. He was very angry. He was the focus of a public meeting (a small one from inside a formed group). He was cricised in public (and praised a little). I have tried counselling in private on very many occassions. His final comment at the meeting was that he hated everyone. On the other hand he was treated in a mature fashion (maybe not like an adult but it was civilised), negative points were matched against positives and all comments were very genuine. The Patrol co-operated in dealing with the issues raised and others were criticised as well. The Scouts were very controlled and mature in their discussion. That night the boy had recovered his humour. I hope that the road I travelled was more successful than implementing or creating a policy - which I could have done. It was certainly a lot harder for everyone but I suspect will have been a significant step in the right direction. Sorry for the long winded scenario. My point is that we must be humane in our dealings with people and that as personalities mix in different ways we should use our best judgement on all occassions. Relying on a policy, be it on hazing or on singing is a mechanical approach to a human issue. PS How the hell do you put those little yellow faces on these posts?

I try to treat my Scouts like adults - even when they don't really deserve it. I would not expect an adult to 'fry', sing or anything else so - no I cannot think of a substitute. Maybe you could point out the relative worth of the item to give emphasis. Oddly enough this exact thing happened at a camp on Sunday. The scouts were required to go down on their knees and pray for the return of their property. Taken in fun it was but my initial reaction was that a boundary was crossed and I feel that OGE and FScouter are on the money. By the look on one Scouts face he would have agreed.

eisley, excellant suggestion which I will put into action Friday night. Mike and jmcquillan, thanks for the support and yes the crunch is the trip and the fall out that could result. The boys parents have said that he may well leave the Troop after the trip which means he has nothing to loose and the whole issue may have been decided already regardless of my efforts. Everyone - your advice makes me feel that I am not being unreasonable in my considerations. Although I probably am striving for a perfect world. I'll post the results of the parent interview that I am planning. Any further suggestions are still very welcome.

smaster101 - I agree but I have been alone as leader until the last three weeks. Also I have been getting along with him but the issue seems to have escalated since his father took a long overdue interest. This may be me being overly sensitive or just plain fed up but I still suspect a family dynamic. Bob White - a good idea. I'm not sure that I will do an individual contract but a group contract might work. Mike - I'm ex-army and and the simplest solution would be a 'shape up or ship out' line in the sand. I did promise to be in for the long haul however and this forum has got me thinking very seriously about boy led decisions. Can the Troop solve this or is that just me avoiding a responsibility? You are right about sacrificing the one for the good of the whole but I am greedy and looking for a win-win. Your line in the sand might just force the issue to such a situation - force everyone to address the issue conclusively. Thanks everyone. The issue is not simple as I suspect that I have had the most positive effect on this boy in his recent life - at least until four weeks ago. I am worried about his future if he doesn't get through this. If you can figure out how I can eat this cake I really would like to hear more.

I need some advice pls. Situation is that I have had a 13 year old since Feb 01 who makes it very hard for people to like him. He is rude, selfish, overly sensitive to remarks against and the first to throw stones, refuses to wear proper uniform, deliberately slouches on parade,and generally rebels at any sort of power and attacks at any sign of weakness. Etc etc His mother and I have spoken often and I said at the outset that I wa in for the long haul. The boy does not respect his mother at all. His father and I have spoken about him once - four weeks ago when he rang me to protest that I gave his son a dressing down (I was actually pleading for the boys' help on improving parade). The father seems to have similar stance to the son or was just paraphrasing his son's complaints. I suspect that there is a lot going on inside this boys head and that he is carrying a lot of emotional baggage. There is a strange family dynamic but would not say that there is anything sinister. He I am going overseas with my troop in July. This boy is coming and my worry is that he will continue being a pain throughout and he will be told off (by the Troop and / or by the adults). At this point one of two things may happen: He returns home complaining about the rotten trip and his dad agitates for apologies, refunds, resignations etc He takes it on the chin and we all have a good time (however on previous form this could revert to option A on returning home) I am getting nervous about taking him at all - I don't trust him and he will need close supervision - not much of a trip for any of us. I intend to speak to his mother and father in next fortnight. Any suggestions?

When building things - neatness is strength Not sure if this fits Bob White but "our wet weather plan is...get wet"

I hope these two thoughts help: I notice an emphasis on Sunday services and Scouts Own's. They can be held at any time. Leaving it to sunday might be setting you up with a some baggage the boys are carrying. I tend to hold group discussions after every activity session. Some are less than 30 seconds (not joking) and others can last longer and normally about 5-10 minutes (record is about 90 minutes). It all depends on where the Scouts are at at that time. All sessions require input from every member present and most revolve around our inter-relationships. They are not at all religious but seem to cover the same ground as religious services. The success of these sessions is due to: individual involvement relevance to what we are doing timeliness open and honest discussion the speaker has the floor - no hijacking their statement About one in six of these sessions is very moving for one reason or another. I suppose it is another example of little and often rather than leaving it all to the Big day.

Since last month our plans have shown some profit! This weekend we earned: sausage sizzle sales $504.30 mothers day hanging baskets $190.80 first aid kits $191.00 We are into profit on all except the hanging baskets as our late planting and less than sunny weather has not produced many flowers. We have almost broken even on that one and hope to off load the rest at local markets as they flower.

Well done to both the old 'grey' and the young Eagle. What do you mean 'he finally made it'? It would seem obvious that the courage and commitment we've seen in your posts is a family thing.

Hey slontwovvy - good morning on this fine ANZAC Day. Your list is good. Were these activities without adults? I realise that my initial message did not stipulate this but that is what I'm after.

G'day eisely. Couldn't find the magazine articles on Russia. I gave my old mags to a new Scouter and have only the last 12 months. However East Timor had two Scouting movements in Apr 2001. One Catholic and one community based. At that time they were contemplating merger and then seeking membership of WOSM. Scouting existed under Indonesian control as Indonesia has the Gerakan Pramuka which I believe to be a compulsory Scouting movement which has an overtly military uniform. Therefor there was a precurser to the two new Scouting movements.

All right lets hear them. I'm keen - but have not had a troop trained to a very high level and now am an SM and I need ideas. My Patrol Leaders meet on Tuesday night to plan the next quarter and I want to get their brains going. I'll start with what we have done so far: overnight camp in a farmers paddock, overnight in a national park with adults a mile down the track, build a raft and float it, bike riding on forest tracks, Your turn. Only tried and proven ideas please - no hypotheticals

eisley, yes some Australians got involved with the Russians pretty soon after the wall came down down. In fact one died in St Petersberg being run over in an accident I believe. I'll search through my Aust Scout magazines for the article(s). East Timor has three Scout movements I think. I'll check that as well. I seem to remember other examples of Scouting erupting out of years of totalitarian rule. It's not just a Russian thing.

All right you blokes let hear them. I'm keen but have not had a troop trained to a very high level and now I have a troop of my own and I need ideas. I'll start with what we have done so far: overnight camp in a farmers paddock, overnight in a national park with adults a mile down the track, build a raft and float it, bike riding on forest tracks, Your turn. Only tried and proven ideas please - no hypotheticals.

This thread seems to have dies off a bit but here goes... We have raised $3500 from selling sausages in bread with onion and sauce every saturday since Aug 2001. With all families taking part one at a time that is once every 6-8 weeks for us and for you mega troops in the USA that might mean much less. Each Sat earns $100 on average (yes I know that with the exchange rate that is $52 US but all the same..) It is money earned - not donated. We sold toffee apples and got $300 in a day. We are selling Mothers day hanging baskets and at about $10 per basket expect to make $500 at least. We are making little first aid kits called the "Hero Pack" that contain sachets and bandaid strips etc for $5 per pack. It's a bit gimmicky but think that it will go all right. What sells these items is Scouts in uniform. Keep the parents hidden in the background and people line up. When the Scouts are seen to be working hard people want to help and buy up. When the parents come forward or the Scouts are not busy everyone walks by. We also advertise that we are sponsoring Scouting in a small pacific nation and that we intend to go there. That helps too. It also keeps the Scouts motivated. We like your cookbook idea. Will try that next. We are a bit busy at the moment.

Mike F, Same age patrols are virtually unheard of over here so I'm not so sure about the "wide-spread use throughout scouting". Personally I used it once only to get a large intake through the first (tenderfoot type) level in short time (6 weeks; in accordance with our National policy). I agree that leading peers is the hardest form of leadership regardless of age. But age is not the key me thinks - IMHO experience is the key. Our Troops are not allowed to be larger than 48. I cannot imagine 120!

I don't think that Girl Scouts would disappear at all. Certainly hasn't happened here. We don't seem to compete either although I have no survey statistics to quote. There is a Guide (Girl Scout) Troop locally and three (Boy) Scout Troops also. My daughter is a (Boy) Scout and has a good mate who is a Guide(Girl Scout). Neither has any interest in converting. Possibly you guys should look at schooling trends in the States. Are Girls' schools viable in the US? In the UK (Boy) Scout Troops can be co-ed if they want to be. Maybe this would allow for Girl, Bo and Co-ed Scout Troops. That way you could chose.

When we went co-ed there was much talk about program change. Short story is that we didn't. The girls turned up because they wanted to do (Boy) Scout stuff as per our existing program. The only concessions I make for girls are: The toilet screen is placed to avoid the shadow puppet show! There are two tents per patrol. (None of the Scouts and most parents couldn't care less actually but that's the rule) I have arranged an activity for the girls to focus on but as it turns out the boys are pretty keen to be involved and the girls not very interested in excluding them so.... In my opinion the pro's outweigh the con's. I wish I had the opportunity when I was a Scout. My Scouts are very relaxed in the company of the opposite sex. They end up not needing to perform for the opposite sex or feeling they need to slip into a socially determined role. Mind you the USA is a different culture and seems to be a very structured and hierarchical one so our findings cannot be used as a direct comparison.

Bob, I agree that an advertising campaign will not help Troops such as you describe with not so good programs. But my Troop is good. Seems that you, Mike, Rooster7, sst3rd, Bob Russell etc also have good Troops. If I could get them to the door I would keep a darn sight more than 50%. I fight to keep them and it is worth every conversation with Scout, parents, siblings, P/L's and every activity that is aimed at that one Scout. I have lost one out of 13 in 14 months and that was through a divorce. My own ad campaign is pretty small stuff compared with the over-riding public opinion. We do need a marketing campaign. Rooster7 can have the job - it's on the money. Let us show robust young men - not let the media beat us up with cheap laughs. It's not 'cool' or 'sweet' to be laughed at.(This message has been edited by ozemu)

shemgren I agree, I lead my Troop of 12 and have since starting in Feb 01. It is my fifth Troop or thereabouts. I fly solo although there is a leader in training so these days are thankfully numbered. I also work casually and away meaning that in the last three weeks I have been away from home for 11 nights. I have two Cub Scout children and an adorable wife who all need my time. I could not run Scouts if it were not for my three P/L's. They were decent young men in Feb last year and I have trained them to lead in every sense of the word. They run the meeting to our prearranged plan and recently took the Troop to a competition camp while I was away with work. Our program is dynamic and detailed. We have heaps of fun and there is no way I could do this alone. The involvement of the Scouts is vital to me doing the job and them enjoying their Scouting. Those who go it alone without using this huge resource are either power hungery or ignorant of the possibilities. Either way they are wrong.

evmori were the comments about ROTC while you were at school due to their uniforms or was it a part of the anti-vietnam war / peace movement? I see lots of kids wearing camouflage and other bits of military uniform and only the overly military ones that I know of get teased for being in army cadets (your ROTC). I suspect that lots of teenagers want a uniform in order to fit in. What is not cool is probably our public image and the uniform represents that. Changing any uniform is only cosmetic. 'Cool' is not, I suspect, found in our actions and philosophy. Cool seems to be: 'tough', street smart (ass), gang type ritual handshakes, implied violence, rebellion, anti-establishment etc or 'green', 'save the...', conspirancy theorist, anti-capitalist, alternative medicine, etc (drugs do not play much of a part here) or 'surf', adrenalin, sexism, youth cult (excludes almost all adults), relationships, looking attractive, soap opera style outlook etc or sport, playing hard, dedication to goals, eating right, short term goals, physical skill and showieness, etc Pick you 'cool' - each has a uniform. Our uniform does not represent many of the attractive features described above. Thankfully in some cases - tragically in others. My 65 year old mother remembers Scouts to be tough, determined, resourseful, non-nonsense sort of men not easily made light of. You americans started the visual use of advertising showing young men (not boys) and the image created was good. Maybe we should continue this. I don't think a 'little boys' movement will ever be cool for teenagers. I'm not suggesting that we cut out all sections for boys aged less than 12 but that we focus on the result - not the method.

Maybe if the tradition of having services, as smaster101 has described, is strong there could be an additional service / discussion about god and reverence. I know where I would go if the spiritual menu had Catholic, Protestant, Jewish and a forth session for the rest of us - where god and reverence could be looked at. Personally I would be homeless if the only choices were C,P and J.

Just confirmed that there are no Queens Scout Banners in existance - sorry. Maybe try a pom - same badge.