ozemu

Good on you for putting your living up there Andrew. I was out of work on compo having left the Army and succumbed to the Western worlds prejudice against men who are without work. Dented my mental health and self esteem I can tell you. We all do what we can and personally I think my contribution to society through Scouting is more valueable than my income from work. I dont do anything for church (another story there) and not much for school. So keep paddling Andrew, you are covering more valueable ground than I.

9 as youth 16 as leader (wow hadnt counted before - Im due for another knot!) 37 my age therefore 2 years off since arriving at age 8 for Cubs. Those are the years I commanded a Platoon of soldiers full time. Maybe my life has had too narroow a focus eh? In Australia there used to be a rule that said military service was counted towards awards providing you were active immediately before enlistment and resumed within a year of discharge. I think that came out of WW2.

Ahhhh! That paints a different picture. Now Bob six persons is still six Scouts although I have had (as a boy) eight in a Patrol Tent (we were small - max of about 12 years old). Proud Eagle our tents are big canvass short walled arrangements using three poles that need to be lashed together. The sides and ends can be brailled up to make a canvass tarp/ fly. There is no separate fly sheet as the canvass is thick. No floor either and builders plastic fixes that. Cost about $700 -$1000 Aus ($500-$700 US I think) but they last for generations well cared for. Our other tents are $20 tarp sheets. Very airy. If we use dome tents at all they belong to individuals and everyone seems to have one. Our weather is much more mild than some places in the US so perhaps we can use cheaper tents.

Proud Eagle and Bob White have a slant on things here that for once I dont agree with. Tents are a tool. You chose that which suits your purpose. My point previously is that different types of camping and methods of implementing Patrol System etc will dictate that the tent issue may need to change throughout your Scouts choice of programme. For us we camp in large six person tents in summer generally although sometimes use fly sheets only or even cardboard boxes. In winter it is generally two - three person tents or small fly sheets again as we normally hike. There is no all round best tent and as for how many in a tent - that is a matter of experience, boy-led supervision and training. Noise in tents is not an issue with us more than once a year (we camp monthly or more - I think that is why our Scouts are comfortable in various situations). Noise and gear being lost are training matters - if using two person tents teaches them to deal with these issues then okay. But if yours is a way of avoiding the issues then in my humble opinion I believe that you are missing an opportunity here. They can learn to get along and be organised and they seem to me to be useful life skills. PS it really puts the PL in charge in the big tents. Of course the BSA programme has a wider age range and that may not suit - genuine ignorance on my part there.

Would have to be careful that you dont make matters worse but what about giving her an innocuous job that keeps her busy and out of your hair? A job that is regular and hands on (maybe somewhere other than the Scout Hall!). Your structure is a bit of a mystery to me so I wont suggest any particular job. Any ideas people?

AK Eagle is right about the present case - 10 laws here. I think you guys have it all wrong. Why not try to whittle yours down a couple? (grin) Our PLC agreed to my request that we recite the (10) laws every opening parade after the flag is broken. Been doing that for over 12 months and most know the law by heart. Which around here is not the norm. Allows us to use the law in SMs minutes, Scouts Owns etc a lot more than I have seen in the other Troops I was in. Just a thought. Then again how about - A scout thinks, (therefore I am)

Mike F I wonder about the no more than 2 scouts idea myself. Like Eammon wrote earlier here we camp the entire patrol in one tent (or close to it - the girls get a second tent so the patrol now covers 2 tents; but canvass is only so thick isnt it?) Anyway the patrol eats, sleeps and plays together. They zonk out quickly (the newest ones get used to camping after a couple) and the PL can always give a judicious goodnight Johnnie if they dont. Only once have I had to tell the older ones to pack it in. No sulking in the corner on our camps and the lack of privacy is not a big hurdle. They become less precious about their physical condition when they all kip together - not a bad thing I suspect. A little easier to run activities when raining too. Vive le difference though.

Despite my best intentions I missed 11am today. Was working but had it planned to stop the kids at 11am for 15 seconds of rememberance (these kids would not handle a full minute). They were having a brilliant day and we got so caught up in the positive experience that I missed it by an hour! ...and then they stuffed the session in the debrief. I was more than annoyed on both accounts. My respect those who went, are doing the job or are training for their turn. Graham ex Infantry duty first

not many northern lights here..tornadoes either. My best nature memory from Scoutsing is watching dawn from the top of a mountain two mates and I had walked up during the night. In fact we watched sunset from one mountain and dawn from another. I was 16 and although the sun was not particularly special I was in good company and had proved something to myself during the night.

FOG, about the little acorns...fair comment and maybe one day but as with most of us there is a line up of good ideas and that one is rated as unlikely and the effort as measured agaisnt other tasks is not reasonable at this time. I teach canoe (flatwater), abseil, high/low ropes, bushwalking, emergency prep etc to adults as it is but the course is too long for volunteers. I am rated as a Scout instr in these skills too (took several years and multiple submissions - some things are international) and have been asked to help train SM's and adventure leaders. Would love the job but....family and work alas. Maybe when the kids are older. Still your training sounds interesting and I can't help dreaming. Am always curious to compare and learn / improve what I can.

Thanks FOG. I imagined it was a locally built and reasonably informal meeting. I only wish we could have similar training. Also wish I could have the option of a Venture patrol in my Troop. We would not lose so many Scouts after they turn 15 if we could. At 15 they MUST leave the Troop and go to Venturers. Most dont as they must leave the Group. Aust Scout Groups have at least Cubs and Scouts. Many offer Scouting from age 6-26 without needing to leave the Group. The Group is managed by one parent committee and has a Group Leader who coords the Section leaders. Quite different to BSA. My Group does not have a Venturer Section and would not get enough for a unit. We might manage a small patrol. Hence my Scouts msut leave the Group and join another.

Thanks for the answers to my previous question. Now the reaching out to new leaders thread throws up another. I take it that a powder horn is a meeting of leaders. What is its purpose, who is it for, how often does it occur? etc In know what a powder horn is in terms of equipment. Thanks for your patience.

thanks everyone. cracker barrel does sound a lot better than supper.

Genuine question. I think it means a campfire meeting featuring hot chocalte drinks etc. Is there a purpose to the meeting or is it just a USA word for supper?

Not exactly sure about meaning of vespers. But we have a Scouts Own service every camp. It is non-denominational, and in my Troop has not had any readings from any book of faith that I recall. Not that we would mind but the Scouts are spending some time getting the words and thoughts right and using someone elses words gets in the way. We dont sing either - they hate it. But they all come. And it is a requirment for a senior Scout to design and lead a Scouts Own so I suppose that Scouts Australia see spiritual reflection as mandatory. I do too. Best remembered: a service with the Scouts facing the water and the speakers standing behind, last weekend the prayers for one of our Scouts who has had two operations recently, a prayer for a classmate who suicided - the prayer was never finished, but we understood. Eagle Foots final question must have been initiated by a specific incident. I assume it is rhetorical.

A big kid who you trust to take little to medium sized kids on adventures.

Murphy's Laws

Show him your post. Its OJs decision and it will help him whichever way he goes to know what you are thinking. As a dad I understand your wanting him to finish the job but he may be feeling overwhelmed by being so close to milestone. I agree that it is his decision. I just hope that I can say the things that you have to my son when his time comes. I think Ill go and practice right now....

Our rural area has lots of small holdings and little villages. Lots of people but very segmented. I find that I get Scouts from the feeder pack (thats the long view and very worth the effort of developing and maintaining good involvement) and from existing Scouts. All my other efforts yield very little. Run bring a friend activities. Go door to door. Use local papers and school newsletters but most importantly run an excellant program that is exciting and spectacular. That gives the cubs something to look forward to and your Scouts something to get their mates interested.

These people can be very awkward to handle and difficult to bear. I have one such mother in mind. She buts in, overwhelms with talk, is totally interested in her kids and always asks for an easier path/special consideration for them, and hitches a ride on any good idea regardless of the difficulty it causes others. I say shoot her. But that probably isnt good advice. Regardless of your maturity you are in this situation still dealing with a parent and Rooster is spot on. It was the SMs job. In fact here - it is mine. I hate putting her straight on youth run / challenge rather than doing the minimum / doubtful evidence of skills etc. I still do it though. Being a bloke I find that she is more eloquent (certainly copious) and I figure out exactly what she has arranged afterwards. Even though I was there the full ramifications of what transpired dawns on me later. So your SM may be in a similar predicament. Pls be carefull. If you treat the son just the same as others then she will still snipe at you. Make double sure of how you deal with him. Seek peer and ASM/SM advice often even if you dont need it. It will help answer her accusations of picking on him later. Maybe you could have simply called the meeting off to another time instead of dealing with her. But you didnt. So dont worry about it. These people will manufacture situations to their advantage and few of us can keep up with them. Anything you did she could have outmatched to her advantage. You were going to lose. That is if she is anything like the one I deal with. And try to keep emotion out of you actions. If she is in your face try to back away gratiously and deal with it after you have had time to think it through. No body should think worse of you for doing so in anything other than an emergency. She is probably well known as control freak - so keep your dignity - people will respect that. Eamonn said consider the law and promise. Good advice. But being right will not mean feeling good / satisfied / content with what you did or need to do. It will be hard regardless. Do you your best. As you have.

Just saw your post for the first time and it seems that you have solved the problem. Well done. You may have prompted these leaders to have a long hard look at themselves but they are only human and habits are hard to break. So dont expect their reaction to last indefinately. They will probably slip back a bit and may need more reminders. This is not your job alone - you might be seen as a nag/pain in butt (help me here someone with translation). Maybe enlist the support of other Scouts to approach these leaders. But that is one possibilty in the future - for the present great work and credit to you for getting advice from Dan, Dave, packsaddle, Laura, Rick and buffalo. They wont steer you wrong. If you had not done so you may have let strong emotion wreck your intentions - seeking good advice was very wise. ...and welcome to the forum. Pls hang around. There is more good stuff to be had in here.

Wow -this one came back from over a year ago! Bear, since my post I have tried a few of your suggestions. But WHAT is a slot canyon or a Goblin Valley??? Eamonn I have not recieved your book. Until I started exchanging things with US Scouters I thought the lost in the post line was just an excuse. Now I have lost a toy Mascot somewhere in Michigan. This is the second time our koala has strayed. Also a Mascot arrived here two days AFTER my Troop went on an overseas trip. It cost a US Scouter about $50 US. I was not impressed with Australia Post. Are you able to track the book? I love John Sweets illustrations. I have some old copies of the English (British?) Scout mag. His work is outstanding.

Some of my best Scouts joined late and they worked like Trojans to advance to catch up. There is no doubt though that the program works best when we have years to rub some character into them. On another thread I mentioned that my best recruiter is a great cub pack program and regular involvement with them. We get more than 50% from them. The others are a real mixed bag. Active recruitment is costly on time and energy while but produces few new Scouts. We might do better if we were a town Troop. Our best new Scout recruiters are a very good program and encouraging existing Scouts to bring their school mates. We get them at all ages but still notice that the older ones have made up their minds. They are either with or against us. And too much tv and a poor street reputation means that Blutos buddy is right. They are disinclined by icons and image (uniform) and cannot see the forest for the trees. In all I try to get them young. It is easier, helps the long view of the program. I leave the older ones to my existing Scouts. I run some bring a buddy nights and leave it at that. All I ever got out of active recruiting (and I did heaps of it using all media) is cubs. Not a bad thing but not very direct. And Pearl Harbour was in Dec41 or so? The war was half over already. Well maybe not half but our blokes were beating up Japanese (or was it Germans) in Africa for some time already. Six months later our 9th Div started the German retreat at El Alamein and another six months saw a mixed Australian force stop the Japanese at Milne Bay. Your guys turned up at about that time - so I figure you arrived at half time. (Ive got to get a reaction to this!)

We run JOTI / JOTA at the same time (3rd weekend of Oct) every year as a multi Troop / Pack event at a school. We camp there and run other activities for those not so keen on the I or A. This year I am running a 3 hr paddle three or four times over as an example. Always a hit with us. This year we hope to be in touch with Red Feathers Troop on our own chat room but there are also international rooms set up that we have used in the past. Our national people coord this for us and we just hook on to it.

Anne for what is is worth we have a different system here whereby the Troop is part of a Scout Group consisting of a cub pack and a Scout troop. Hence we recruit from one pack only. I have found in the three years from start (9 and now 20 Scouts) is that we have recruited more cubs into the pack than into the Troop. Eventually they become Scouts - you just have to wait a few years. They make excellant Scouts as they arrive trained and filled with a good amount of scout spirit. Maintaining a good relationship with cub packs may be very important to you. It seems to be easier to recruit the kids at ages 8-10 than at ages 12-14. Also important have been: monthly outdoor activities that happen come hell or highwater, good dedicated ASMs per patrol, lots of varied activity including - virtual meetings (just started those), regional activities with other Troops, community visits with the cub pack, visiting the cub pack, canoeing and bushwalking as primary focus areas, active Troop Council (Court of Honour??), spectacular ceremonies, international activities (one trip overseas, JOTA, Jamboree coming up, www exchanges, a travelling mascot (which is lost in Michigan). Patrol camps and activities. A long camp (summercamp type) but just our Troop by itself per year. Camps that have tested the Scouts (a tiring hike, a 24 hour walk-a-thon, a tiring bike hike, adult free patrol camps, hiking in unfamiliar areas for the older guys, the long camp in winter) - they are as proud as punch of their achievements. We are just starting a bring a mate (friend) program now that we have a lot of 11 year olds. The older ones were not interested. Lots of talking to parents - selling the program, tailoring things to their childrens particular needs