ozemu

At the jamboree in just over a weeks time I intend to run a forum for Scouts in my region. The topic will be the pro's and con's of forming a special organisation catering for Scouts 12-16 who need more challenges than younger Scouts. (trying to deal with drop out rates etc) I intend an OA/MOS/high adventure patrol / troop. The Scouts seem to want adventure and I want to tie in survival training / aboriginal culture as well. I am having some success using aboriginal icons etc in ceremonies. I am looking for advice about structure, meeting schedules, ratio leader:scouts, activities that prove popular in the US etc. We are from a rural and coastal area. The region intended is some 90 minutes driving time top to bottom. About 8 Troops might be involved and I suspect Patrols might be formed from neighbouring Troops throughout the region with combined meetings less often. I can and will again access OA and MoS sites. I do not need links to them but am keen to look at specific units. I have spoken to a few of you already about this and have kept our discussions on disk. Thanks again for your interest.

At the jamboree in just over a weeks time I intend to run a forum for Scouts in my region. The topic will be the pro's and con's of forming a special organisation catering for Scouts 12-16 who need more challenges than younger Scouts. (trying to deal with drop out rates etc) I intend an OA/MOS/high adventure patrol / troop. The Scouts seem to want adventure and I want to tie in survival training / aboriginal culture as well. I am having some success using aboriginal icons etc in ceremonies. I am looking for advice about structure, meeting schedules, ratio leader:scouts, activities that prove popular in the US etc. We are from a rural and coastal area. The region intended is some 90 minutes driving time top to bottom. About 8 Troops might be involved and I suspect Patrols might be formed from neighbouring Troops throughout the region with combined meetings less often. I can and will again access OA and MoS sites. I do not need links to them but am keen to look at specific units. I have spoken to a few of you already about this and have kept our discussions on disk. Thanks again for your interest.

crickey - wasn''t expecting that offer Dave. Don't want crossed wires with GS membership specialist. Will email you. Campfire fairy the not drinking of water is maybe not 100% accurate. Vaguely recall some rersearch that has koala's drinking but not very much or very often. And as for cute and cuddly. The can smell and have claws. Like possums they will climb people if you stand still and they are frightened but tghey are very timid and that doesn't happen often. Possums however can get very tame. I recall a Scout standing still wide eyed with a box of food and a possum on his big traditional scout hat. FrankJ the kookaburras must laugh every morning and afternoon to welcome and farewell the sun. If they do not do their job the sun will not rise. The full dreamtime story I cannot remember.

Heck DS that is an ask. Would love to help. Have been to PNG twice on battlefield tours. Shaggy Ridge both times. Was an army adventure training exercise. Aust Army had a group based in Darwin in WW2 who set about finding downed airmen. Oddly they operated with US forces and made 300 or so rescue missions in the Pacific islands. They did not work with Aust Army (who knows why) and PNG was Aust Army mostly. Had they been available they would have been looking for your relative. Still turning up planes in those jungles. I did my survival training with a training unit based at same place as WW2 unit and following same sort of methods.

wow - small world. I have been in email contact with GS of Macomb County - Otsikita Council Inc. and am waiting their try. They are being sympathetic and I hope for success. Is GS of Metro Detroit another council or a level up? I was very confused as I only had www to research and I dont really understand your structure. Actually thought her host was BSA for a while. Duh! The absence (I expect) of gum trees may have put Aussie to hibernation in MI. On a recent bike hike we saw a mum and bub koala. The patrol that was formed that weekend is led by a girl PL and they chose koala as their name. All this is incidental to our mascot - most of the kids in the Troop have not seen her as we have had a big increase since she left almost two years ago.

Hi, we sent our mascot (toy koala0 on a long tour of the USA. Started Feb 02. It got lost in Eastpoint MI about Apr this year and was supposed to go to Red Feather as the last stop. She (GS ldr) stopped answering emails and even phone calls (Screening service) from Aust and US hosts. I have contacted Council HQ and they have their 'membership specialist' hunting down the GS leader responsible. Apparently she has had overstays with other mascots. No word now for a few weeks. Any ideas on what I might do next? Is Council the end of the road? Will Christmas cause a delay while Council staff have holidays? If I lived within 1000 miles I would drive around over Christmas and camp at the door but that is not realistic from here. There are a lot of swap badges, photos, literature etc with the bear as she had over 10 hosts beofre this one. Okay - that's the end of my gripe.

I don't question SPL's youthfulness - he is quite mature and eloquent. I do believe that he is 14 - to his great credit as he carries it well. In fact I read certain posts with more than normal interest as they are young and thoughful - SPL among them. Must annoy the heck out of people such as acco describes. As to acco's reference to men being susceptible to immaturity I shall say nothing on the grounds that I might incinerate myself.

Dave I wasnt trying to say that we have done a great deal. Just that we try. Pls remember that my entire country numbers about the same as New Yorks population (and we have three tiers of government!) Our contribution is small but hopefully useful. We tend to focus mainly on our near neighbours which number amongst the poorest countries in the world - lots of our aid in the pacific and SE Asia. Hi Rooster. Sorry to have offended you. The way you chose to interpret is up to you. I was not trying to lecture. I thought it was an open forum and that I might offer a useful and interesting slant. As I wrote to SPL you should be proud; there is nothing wrong with and much to commend pride in your country. Its just that there are a whole bunch of battles that the USA did not attend. To discount them is to discount the cost bourne by those of us who were there. No country can claim that dubious distinction. and I would prefer that Australians had not been at the Somme, Passchendale, Bullecourt, Fromelles or Singapore. Thofirst four battles gave us the 63% casualty rate for WW1. The highest in the world. Fortunately for Americans your country had not committed itself to the wars at those times. The UK was leading then. That is another story.

Thanks Ed, needed that. Have never experienced a howling down on the www. I am wiser for having witnessed the experience. My sincere sympathy to mrs red feather. I thought that your words were reasonable and the responses (read attacks maybe) are unwarranted and reactive rather than proactive. I am sure that SPL did not mean for his post to become what it is. Be proud SPL. Your country has achieved much and like mine it will continue to grow and be a useful force in the world. One battle that your quote missed is important to me down here. The battle of Hamel in 1918 was a 93 minute success without the slaughter of the previous four years. It was the first battle in France created and executed by Australians only. My Grandfather won a military medal and lost his best mate. He never spoke to me of the fight because of that I suppose. It was also the first battle that involved US troops to any significant degree I believe. Although Pershing tried to have your troops withdrawn they were keen and we needed some help (our casualties had been heavy throughout 1916 and 1917 and Austrailains had been instumental in stopping the German advance of 1918). Consequently the doughboys and diggers went to battle together and our soldiers wrote favourably of the performance of yours. They got on well. They were glowing in praise on both sides. The only need mentioned was the US lack of experience and the Australian habit of taking all valuables and souveneers from POW. Something similar happened in New Guinea in WW2. However there the relationship deteriorated until at the conclusion of hostilities Australian units passing US units in ships at harbours exchanged words like your women were great to which the Australians responded with a few shots and grenades (They had not been disarmed at wars end). How could the years have changed things? Partly it was McArthur. A general who was uniformaly despised by Australian troops for his untrue press releases that ignored their efforts and claimed them as American in many cases. Partly it was the battle of Brisbane. A riot that lasted three days between US and Australian forces in Brisbane. What a stark contrast to my Grandfathers experience. I suspect that the difference was in rhetoric and an unsubtle propoganda machine that soured relations between countries while bolstering morale within countries. Words do that. PS Dave J - California has had a few bushfires recently. Australia sent firefighters. We have done so before. It is something we are good at and can return some of the favours. That is also partly why there is a coalition in Iraq. We dont have a whole lot more to offer. I never new the Mississipi flouded. Word never got here. Sorry - we do our best.

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more time with family doing simple things expand my business - less time instructing and more time managing find a Scout Group Leader (or should I do that job myself?) camp with family week long scout camp on Fraser Island. (actually this is a PLC plan but it will be up to me to maintain the energy) start an OA / MoS type group for older Scouts

Try getting a Christmas themed pillow case. Stuff all of the presents for one person into it and tie the top with a ribbon. Do that for each person. Wash the pillow case and store for next year. I dont do this myself as my dear wife thinks that the traditional paper thing is essential. But I can dream cant I ?

Take yourself less seriously, put a lot of effort into listening and respect others more. (oh...and your wife will be drop dead gorgeous, compassionate, exciting, energetic and a wonderful mother but has a propensity for buying expensive nick-knacks so save young fella save!)

Fair enough KS. As a parent I am more rigid than I am as an SM. Any porn in my family would break me up quite a bit. Outside my family I can only force the law and parents stated or reasonably infered wishes. My foster son is 16. The penthouse is to be supplied to 18s and older. Guess who will be returning the magazine soon. However he is unable to rationalise as you and I and I am taking my time. (I do not want a relapse into the aggression displayed when his bio dad threw out his illegal flick knife two weeks ago) The porn that I confiscated was not returned in the school group. The advice my peer gave was intended to apply when he next got hold of some porn. I am supposing that he and some of his mates will do so. They were decidely not Scouts. Anyway I am not fixated on the dirty pictures. The intent is more important. Respect should be pushed as it can apply when people chose not to be responsible. I think. Heres the crunch - I would not be outraged to find some porn in camp. It would allow for some very good and worthwhile discussions within the Troop. I would see it as an opportunity rather than as an outrage. I would inform the parents after the camp of course. It was a different matter among my soldiers as I had very little chance of influencing their morale development. At the Scout age there is a chance that a frank and ernest discussion will help indeffinately. Whatever raises the issue is already done. (Pregnancy or porn). What we do with that is to me the important Scouting issue. Not sure if that brings us more into line. Regardless I respect your views and do not intend any criticism.

No OGE I dont think that our difference here is cultural. Rather I have become less able and less willing (separate issues to me) to pursue every Scout in achieving their ultimate happiness. The kids I am thinking of who do not have other plans want to stay at home with mum (sorry if that bites a bit) and be served upon without needing to do anything substantial. If they persist with Scouts until they grow out of that then we have a success but most find saying nah easier than saying I will. I recall the last meeting of last year. The highlight for 20% of the Troop was when the two Scouts I had bent over backwards for did in fact leave. Best nights of the year they said! My worry OGE is that my ASMs are less dedicated than they indicated and both the programme and my knowledge of individual Scouts is slipping as the job is getting more than I can handle. This will cause withdrawals unless I can get more ASMs (replacements) and figure out how to meet their needs in the job. I see that (following advice I recieved from this forum two years ago and chose to put aside) I must be SM to the Troop not just to individuals. Therefore if they have no specific reason for quitting then I have no specific reason to help them find reasons for staying. The effort does not justify the result as they need so much attention and often are really just unmotivated / self indulgent / not backed by parents etc that I can do little or nothing to address. Reality bit me here a while ago. This is given that I know each and every Scout well. I am rarely surprised by a Scout wanting to quit. One did a few weeks ago (the first this year). No warning except that I never met his parents despite phone calls and seeking them out at pick up time. He loved it but his parents see other interests as more likely to get him fame and fortune. (He will get both regardless - he is a great little bloke) So no I do not agonise over every Scout who disappears. Some I do because they are forced to quit (alcholic mum / parents have withdrawn 4 Scouts in last two years) but what can we do there? I am lucky in having a small Troop (19 at present) and I am sure that I am on top of the disincentives. They are addressed in PLC generally with surprising success. I also talk to parents a lot. One has told me that his daughter will leave at the end of this year. No surprise - we discussed her in detail many times over the years and have exhausted ideas (mum is the key here). Any one else have parents explain their marital difficulties in bold terms when doing the SM - parent talks?

Respect. What ever they chose to do they should treat their partner with respect. There is also responsibility but that conotates, to many, that they have to do the right thing should someone become pregnant. Obviously it should start earlier with the decision to do the wild thing in the first place and then to limit unwanted consequences (disease and pregnancy I suppose). These things they should know from school sex ed etc. But respect is the thing that many young men seem to have no concept of. If they are looking at a playboy magazine etc they should do so with respect. As if the woman is there in front of them. If they would not say / do some things if she were having the photo taken right there in front of them then they should not say / do these things with just the magazine in the lap. Personally I think that that is raising the bar to a point where they will all fail at least a few times. However when their mates are around looking with them the language should still be respectful - that is achievable and sets the tone for in the flesh encounters (I hope). I have, at work, done this type of talk a few times and first saw it done by a more experienced peer. It was straight forward, no giggling, no veiled speech just straight out - look, enjoy and do so with respect. One boy had been getting teased because it was his magazine that had been confiscated. The whole bus listened to a casual conversation and given the absence of other discussion for a few minutes it seemed to have a real effect. He is an outdoor educator for a christian school - I am freelance but I still think it was a good example of how to address Eamons question. Hope that helps. Now I have to have the talk with my intellectually moderate foster boy who is 16 and hiding a penthouse in his room as we type. Just waiting for the dust to settle from the last thing that unsettled him but within the next fortnight will be the time. The info provided by the Disabilities unit starts with nuts and bolts stuff with drawings. It include a series of sketches that show a young man masturbating. The main point was it is okay, it should be in private and that you must clean up after yourself. As for other stuff it sums up with comments that sex chould not hurt anyone and the man should wear a condom for health and pregnancy issues. As it is for disabilities people there is no attempt to moralise. It just describes the different methods of haveing sex (all of them) but simply as I suppose they will figure out the fine detail themselves. Without the moralising it is pretty straight forward really. The moralising I would leave to the parents and preists but many young people don have reliable sources there so you must do what you chose to do.

What are you going to do with your time now? If they have an immediate answer then I might dig for what they didnt get from Scouting. If they do not have and answer or one that really means nothing then I would wish them good fortune and not waste my time.

Ed - I respect where you are coming from. If I were in the boys Troop or either of the fathers I might view the boy differently but I know nothing about them and can only be detached from the horror of the situation. I certainly do not regard the issue as a sin. You will disagree with this maybe but to address the less contentious issue first. I understand that this boy has not lived up to his Oath but as for removing him from a leadership position I have some reservations. 1. Is that not punishing him for something that is being addressed (I suppose) by other, more directly involved agencies? ie is he catching a double punishment and is that fair? 2. Leadership is a funny thing. He needs to have peoples attention, a good idea and an ability to get then to move toward the good idea. He needs no-ones permission a nor badges of office to do this. His age (and experience) will serve him well as a leader. So if he is in the Troop and has the boys respect (not as a whole being but as a leader) then a leadership position in the Troop will be his regardless of any position allocated to him. 3. Both of our countries have had our senior politicians, of recent past, run off and have sex with a women other than their wife. Neither lost office nor any real respect for their previously acknowledged leadership ability. (I did not nor would have voted for either of the ones I am thinking of) They had charisma and lots of jokes at their expense due to their promiscuity. They still led the nations though - until the next elections. So this boys future as a leader will be dictated by natural forces within and outside of his control. I dont think that SMs/PLC have much to do with it at this point. I understand the anxiety however can only think that this will sort itself out for the best if that is what we concentrate on. Both of our Scout Laws are positive statements. A Scout is .... etc. Never A Scout shalt not ... And I think that this is the best way to approach the issue of this boys role in the Troop. Look at the positives rather than the negatives. And that may be harder to do than to look for punishment or rejection. Certainly I find the Scout Laws more demanding then the Ten Commandmants (I was brought up Methodist). But then I have never liked the tendancy toward persecution shown by the major religions and my arguement may be skewed here. I see a problem not a sin. This issue will never be under the table. It will be as real and palpable with every formal and informal meeting of Scouts in the Troop as is the Scout himself. It is more a monster that stands alongside this boy wherever he is at the moment. If his Troop can deal with the monster they will have gained the positives out of the matter and they will have created a humane place in which to live. Im thinking that it is a cant see the trees for the forest type problem. Only here it isnt trees and forest its monster and boy. And obviously I side with the boy, regardless of his past performance, as long as he is doing his best now.

Heck Ed you make it sound like the Artificial Insemination bloke just made a mistake in the stockyard. She isnt a cow. Nor was she raped it seems. They made love - and they misjudged a few things. As for being an example I think the Scouts will discriminate more than maybe you suggest. What he does now is going to be planned. What he did then was an emotional (and therefore unpremeditated) error. What is Thanksgiving?

I read this this morning and had to wait until time allowed after work. Damn that time zone! I separate this from the previous post as it is a personal take that has little to do with Scouting. I spent the day doing initiative problems and games outdoors with three kids. One is a girl who, among other things gave $2 head jobs at school. She has no self esteem, no friends, no confidence and soaks up compliments and me pointing out her good qualites like a sponge. She is just a 13 year old doing the best she can with a bad start. She is punishing herself more than others can (and she is not to blame for losing an eye years ago and suffering neglect and abuse - so why does she have to put herself down?). I bet the young Scout is putting himself down too. Certainly society has a way of telling people they are losers and that cuts teenagers to the core. They embody the bad image placed upon them. I feel for the young bloke. He may have had a better start than she did but so what? - he is probably tearing himself up and self esteem etc have hit an all time low. I think that we (not just Scouting) should be trying to make something out of what little there is left in this young man. He is only 15 and not ready for the scrap heap - unless that is where we put him.

Wow! What a question. We do not have chartered organisations. Here the issue is Scout only. Religious based morales have no play (here). Has he broken a civil law? Im not sure. Whether he has or has not is not a Scout issue to me - its a police matter. Let his church and the police deal with their issues. The Scout issue is based on Law and Oath agreed and none of us are perfect. He has done wrong but if it is mostly poor judgement and bad luck so what? Really what can we achieve that church and law cannot? We can add condemnation or we can offer support. Culturally we value women as being equal so his fatherhood is something we expect him to pursue (at least by maintenance) and this is not a religious rule. It is enforced by courts. Yes - getting her pregnant is an issue to us. But temper this with 50% blame (seems she was happy with the arrangement initially) (older too wasnt she) or even less than 50% if he was led on some. However culturally there is a price to pay and he is getting this fully given the discussion to this point. Does Scouting need to heap shame and disgust as well as society at large? Not in my book. What to do? - examine your choices against the Oath you made on becoming a leader and judge him by the Law you aspire to - then peg it back for a 15 year old standard. Do not judge him by religious or legal norms as that is someone elses job, and society will make its outrage felt of its own accord. That is my take and personally unless he has been sleeping around and not just unlucky I would support him where possible. Maybe it is simpler when Scouting is fully independant of religion. I get the feeling some of us are having difficulty separating our religion and Scouting ideals. And I bet some will say you cannot. But the world is not Christian and in some societies he is just being normal. In our world he has done wrong; legally, culturally and religiously (for most of you) but Scouting is open to all regardless of creed, language, nationality, religion etc. He is a human; an inexperienced boy. In my reading of Scoutings role he should be treated as a boy now becoming a man who has stuffed up permanently but might still hold some hope of being President (maybe not Pope). If he has time for Scouting I would have time for him. Because I made a Promise to abide by a Law and made an undertaking to do this to the best of my ability (not his ability). PS good post Laurie.

Nice hat rack.

Here we rarely camp for more than a long weekend although (partly due to this forum) I am now running an annual longer camp 4-7 days. Our weather is tentable all year round. Also there is the Jamboree every 3 years. My Troop has still managed 16 nights so far this year, 19 for those off to Jamboree and another two nights this month to wrap up the year. Three of those night were Patrol camps (three patrols out at different locations) without direct adult supervision. That is a camp every month excluding Jan and Dec (Our summer holiday). Not trying to boast here. Just wanting to compare and Im sure Ill be beaten quickly. How many nights do you do? We only count tent camping but given your weather cabins are in for this poll.

Heres another one of those paradigm shifts. I forgot that the USA of pretty hooked on summer camp. The concept is familar to us only because of the number of US movies on tv. **** idea for new thread here!

37 this month. Birthday on a Scout camp (second time that has happened)