ozemu

This question has been visited before a few times. It is also the only thing that I think BW and disagree on. But I do take his point. I'm with OGE and Mike F though for the following reasons. Big tents can mean Patrols camping together. The PL keeping the guys in line. A great learning experience for those who let things get out of hand. The Patrol system at work 24/7. My Patrols sleep in big tents normally. Not always. The program issue is more important than the tent issue. So small tents for hikes and big tents other times. They decide. So I see the big tents as a program issue. The Scouts get used to what is expected and tolerated. Also the infrequent campers are highly visible. They make lots of noise as they are very excited about the new experienece. The older hands tell them off. No rules just options. The problem is certainly not the tent. Also the bigger tents use lashing ropes and natural timber poles (sometimes bamboo). Getting them up and keeping them waterproof and warm is a skill. Doing it quickly is an art and our guys are really proud when it goes well. Another training thing. Oh yeah BW and I also disagree about the Indin Lore badge appearing on Australian Scout uniforms but mate they look great and the discussions and eyes that are opened when other Scouts see thenm is worth a lot of improper rule bending. I suppose I am promoting BSA stuff over here by allowing it. All for the greater good I reckon. (Just pulling your leg a little BW)

we are only allowed the one hat here. I agree with that policy but then we have a lot less hats to wear than do you in the USA. Maybe our jobs are a little bigger than the way you have divided things. Don't know. I do not believe that this is true at Troop level. The biggest difference that I see is that here a Scout begins at age 6 and leaves at age 26 (ideally) and providing the sections are available they will have the same parent committee all through. Let me try a different angle. We have a single parent committee providing support for up to five youth sections (Joeys, Cubs, Scouts, Venturers, Rovers). This means that we might save three executive positions on each of four committee's if I understand your system right. We use three instead of 15 parents on committee's. This make sthe three jobs much bigger but not five times as big if you see my drift. Now I am not sure what could be done at Troop level but you certainly have a lot of commissioners. It seems though that your association is better administered. Then again we have three executive professionals per state. That's all. Wish we had proffessionals like you seem to have. This post is a bit disorganised. Sorry. Out of real coffee - just instant decaf!!

Paul Petzoldt had a great open letter to a mum that he used at Outward Bound. The guts of it ran that it was her right or even duty to do her utmost in gautanteeing her sons safety and that if she did that OB could gaurantee the death of his soul. Not recommending that you throw a copy at her just that it is an issue that often arises and the result of seeking to completely protect is a death of a diiferent kind.

over here the standard seems to be (Groups opt fot this - there is no rule) that the parent committee find the dollars for leader training and for the annual registration fee. Some groups also pay an initial kit out fee to get the leader into unifrom. Ours does not however they did pay for half my Jamboree fee so that I could watch over their children. That I see as a pat on the back for three ears of service. I do not demand it but I really do appreciate it. Trouble is if it baecomes a norm (personally I think it should) then it becomes a payment that loses its value baecause it is reduced to level of a fee for service. I prefer the pat on the back analogy.

Been wanting to get into flint and steel for each patrol for some time but we are still using mine instead as I haven't found an item worth purchasing or if it is it is too expensive for us. So I have not even suggested it to the PLC - I suspect that they would love the idea. In the mean time it is mostly lighters in our Troop only because the matches get wet/smashed/used up too quickly.

Unc I believe that we have talked about your your MIA relation before and I was thinking of him just a couple of weeks ago. I wish I could do some searching up there. Lovely people and your uncle is not alone in the MIA list for PNG - there are plenty to find. A few more turn up every few years. Hereś hoping for you.

Its 31 May here now. We will remember them - Lest we forget

sorry eagle54 your posts do not read very clearly. SM/ASM's should help the PL and SPL to get their jobs done better. for some that will mean a lot of help from the adult. for other scouts that will mean an occassional reminder or observation only. the point is that the scout/PL/SPL learns how to perform better as a leader and person. the duty roster is one way of managing jobs on camp. it is not essential and may even be inappropriate unless you are seeking for your scouts to learn about rosters. don't get me wrong. i think rosters are great. before butting in i advise that we consider why the PL is /is not using a roster. does he know how to write one? is he trying to be too fair or is he giving the worst jobs to the one scout? if either again why is he doing this? is he trying to find the scouts who get in and help without being asked? is he testing his APL to see if he steps up? does he want a relaxed feel and has arranged for a low maintenance menu and campsite? is he plain lazy? is he ill? having considered some of this go and talk with him. his is a learning role as is ours. i advise that we do not tell the PL what to do. just increase his options and understanding. boy led surely does not imply that scouts can actually lead without adult help. some can. most need to learn how and we do what is needed to get them closer to 'boy led'. too many variables for a definitive answer i think.(This message has been edited by ozemu)

no need for any apology johnsned. your grief makes my relationship with my scouts more meaningful. i hope never to go where you are now. i just farewelled my oldest scout from the troop as he has reached max age. we both got glassy eyed as we shook hands for the last SM-PL time in an otherwise empty hall. to lose him or any of the others forever would be devastating. thanks for sharing a little about willie

you have pricked my conscience with this one. i once heard a recital of some banjo patterson that was brillant and i used to know the story "mulga bills bicycle' but my memory is shocking and it has gone. i have made resolutions to memorise some of the old yarns by patterson as they are great stories and recited faithfully keep the context and feel for days gone by. i will get some of the better short stories copied and into a campfire folder.

thanks ed and baschram645 for the info. had never heard of it before and was expecting an anniversary of a battle or peace treaty. i believe that remembrance day (11am 11 nov) is also observed in the US. it gets a second place over here after anzac day (first day of battle for australians in ww1-25 apr 1915) i imagine that your memorial day is similarly important. i 'll spare a moment for your dead on that day too. sorry for the delay in reply. have been busy lately.

What is the signifigance of 31 May pls?

mmmmmm my views on competition in Scouting are based on my work and upbringing. I am an outdoor educator and I work primarily (as of this year) with severely disadvantaged youth. They are an extreme group and they magnify the normal issues until they thump you in the face a bit. Competition (ie attention seeking/domanding etc) is a main component of the most unpleasent aspects that we address. I see the same stuff in lesser forms in most young people. This is a cultural phenomenum. (did I spell that right?) Other cultures that I have encountered do things differently. What is happening to our kids is not a natural way of living even if it is what you see everywhere you look. and History can be interpreted many ways and my copy of Scouting for Boys is dog-eared. Having said all that mikeb I agree that competition can be useful. It is just that it is not an important aspect of Scouting. Scouting here (I thought it was a WOSM initiative but am probably wrong (BW might know) promotes non competitive activities. We went through a major change to serve this principle in 1973 and have continued the process since. BSA may be different. meanpc I agree mostly with you however since when was the mainstream correct? Change means that people learn and change their minds. I did on this issue. Ask any of your vast number of professional outdoor educators. Read any of the enormous volume of academic work being produced in the USA on outdoor ed. They are your industry professionals and thier ideas should get be considered. At the macro level definitions of recreation (Scouting is a recreational or educational program depending on your understanding is recreational) exclude competitive activities. They are called sports. At the micro level competition is just a tool. We should use it for program purposes not just because it is common or traditional. If you can explain the benefits of competition (mild to extreme) then go ahead but please do not take it as a worthwhile component in its own right. Try a search on any of these terms: adventure therapy outdoor education outdoor recreation experiential education project adventure Association of Experiential Education Karl Ronke Simon Priest Michael Gass Scouts is a board member of the Queensland Outdoor Recreation Federation over here and also I think of the Outdoor Rec Council of Australia. Probably ORCA USA also. This is because that is our industry body and we are peak organisations in the industry. Sorry for the soapbox everyone.

Competition - might get my head bitten off here. Society and capitalism use competition in all things. That is unhealthy in many instances. Read any of Stephan Covey books (they rehash a lot so no need to be really choosy) for the detailed discussion. Scouting uses competition - but at a reduced level . The old fashioned play your best not to win type feel. Look at MBs. You compete against a standard. Not against other people. Oath and Promise are a standard also. We all test ourselves against the ideals with an understanding that we will never be perfect in this way. That is the point. Patrol competitions. We use informal ones (single events). The PLC has been asked and do not want a point score kept week to week. I have had trophies for top patrols but the competition only runs half the school term. I have also set challenges where all patrols could meet the standard. If I ran a competition that showed a very dominate patrol I would do my best to even the competition up. District camps. Our competition camp point scoring is vague and I was so disgusted that I did not enter the dates in my diary this year. So I ended up working. There were winners but I am not confidant that the best patrols won (multiple trophies). So what is the poiint in competing when the assessment is unclear. We did our best but lost for reasons that we do not understand. There was no list of things to improve on. Our own opinion is that we did very well - much better than indicated. So how is this healthy? The real world. Teams make the world go around. It is competitive (unfortunately). It is cruel certainly. Scouting should not be cruel. Develop character by all means. Do not allow shoddy work ever but make your Troops safe. Safe to fail and to focus on the learning. If your competitions are not enjoyed by the losers then I suggest that you stop the competitions. Scouting is not the real world just as schools are not. When learning we shelter the student to engage the brain/body at its optimum recieving capacity. We do not expect work or job standard from novices. Our Scouts are all novice adults. They need to learn more than they need to win. Self esteem based on beating others is not the Scouting way. The best game of basketball I played we lost. But heck it was a great game. I have never played so well. If winning was important to me that memory would be a great disappointment. I know my Scouts have got it when the older and better Scouts enjoy watching the younger and less talented win/score/perform. Sometimes they play to lose. Often they invent self penalties so that it is harder for them to win against younger/less talented Scouts or patrols. That way they all have fun. I have seen platoons, companys and battalions pushed to the wall by competitive (for promotion) officers. I have seen stress, mental illness and other manifestations of suffering in the rank and file a large numbers. Battle does that too. After a battle we expect the unit to lick its wounds and retrain. After a years training the unit should be ready for battle - not exhausted, untrusting and unsure. I cannot speak for civil business. But I know that I am earning enough that I can work within principles and that includes giving work to other people and keeping my business within its mission and on core business. When I die I want to be remembered as being producing excellant results and for helping others to do so as well. I want to be rated against standards (many of them of my own creation) not as the best at anything. Competition is not evil. I just do not see much use for competition between Scouts in Scouting. Comparing against ideals is useful in Scouting but that it is really achievement based not score based and so is not competition as I read it.

linux helps with the bugs but not the spam. my sister-out-law sent some bulky photo spam once and i asked her to desist as i pay by the hour and the download time was huge. she doesn't email at all now. not a bad result in all. actually the only other people who spam me apart the viagra thing are christians. as in practicing and preaching ones.

I just realised that there are a lot of ideas that I get off this forum and that I lose a few when I dont act immediately. Darn that short term memory ...thing. I have just started a document in which I will cut and paste the ideas I like. Eamonn your recruiting idea is first. Thanks

just printed the NYNewsday.com version for our Troop noticeboard this week. Thanks.

Laurie I have in mind a long power cord, sleeping bags and pillows, a bbq going at the rear, some good speakers (surround sound would be great) party food and not too much hassle sweeping up later. Obviously weather dependant of course. For those who dont want to watch the video going there may be two or three theatres (big troops in mind here) and a game of cricket off to the side. Well maybe baseball rather than cricket. This is what our troop wants for the end of term break up party. Missed last term so double the pizza this time round.

Yes ANZACś is out on DVD but it was not Mel Gibson but a bloke who looks similar. Paul Hogan was the best known actor (Dundee) For my Grandadś Battalion it was Bullecourt. 51 got back from 250 who went in and the Battalion had already suffered much to get from 1000 (full strength) to the 250 who started that day.

No - just bad humour on my part.

My Troop went to the dawn service for ANZAC Day this morning. Great service as usual. Not a bad turn out for the Troop given that they have been on holidays for a fortnight (50 or 60%). ANZAC Day is the anniversary of our first day of land fighting in WW1. April 25 1915. Bigger than Rememberance Day over here. Both my kids wore one of the great grandfathers medals. They have two that went to war and each year they swap which ones they wear. After the service we had PLC. All over by 0815 am! Then some went for the march as well. Next year we plan to do both. The dawn service to show our respect - the march as PR. Small fact - 2/3 of the Australian troops who went overseas in WW1 became casualties. No other country on either side paid so dearly. Here's hoping that no country ever repeats that. We still pay the price today. How do you replace the flower of a generation?

Scouts: anything with water build rafts and float / sink them deepwater rescue in canoes canoe games - there are lots all parades outdoors for the summer water pistol games - lots of those too lifesaving training - most public pools will help with instructors do the paintball thing but with water pistols with added vegatable dye - wear old clothes stand in a dam/pond/slow shallow river. Build a table or raft in the water and light a fire on it. Cook a quick meal on the structure. Use star charts and telescopes during long warm nights Video party outdoors

After 10 years in the infantry I asked the Troop to remind me if I let one drop. They never did and I tried hard. I apoligised just a few times. With other kids it is not offensive - in fact it helps them relax and listen without thinking deeply about which parts of the sentance are important - like my soldiers. But not in Scouting. Lots of my Scouts will let a few go. I ask them to swear more quietly. My aim is to not ask for something I cannot do myself and to not set it up as a rule to be broken. A bit off the wall but I thought that "Major Pain" was part of your fast start training and he uses a particular term so is that word okay? Maybe I got the plan mixed up.

You guys are making me depressed. AK was right. The head shed asked non Scouts what turned them off Scouting. Uniform was high on the list. This isn't to say that by changing the uniform they would join. IMHO the image is not just the threads. I don't know anyone who likes the new design. We could make our feelings known by www. But would you know it you could only vote for the various styles proposed - not for retaining the existing uniform. The new uniform comes out mid year. They are changing the badges too I think as the existing set and lay out will not go on the new shirt very well. Maybe not - haven't seen anything since a really rough idea in 2001. For myself I will retain the old uniform as long as possible. I suspect the PLC will also vote for this given their most recent statements. We have three years from when they hit the shelves to change over. My reasons: It is ugly It is not robust There are not enough pockets The trial uniform was hot to wear It loses the old image and gains nothing - yes I know that is why they are doing it.

No worries dozer. Just having a dig. (Translation = thats okay. Just joking)