OXCOPS

FScouter- That is part of the problem. We have been talking to our SE since as early as last summer camp. We gave him a list of "needs" and "wants" with some numbers. He said he would budget for it in the 204 budget, but did not. He said that he needed to spend that money on "more important" issues. le Voyageur- I am a little leary of calling his bluff by telling him that we are closing the course. He is not a big fan of COPE. He has only been on the course one time (during inspection). He has said several times to people he thought was anti-COPE that he could care less if we had the program. So, calling his bluff isn't an option at this point.

Thanks Sturgen. Non-scouting group courses make up probably 75% of our program. We have a fee scale set up where we don't charge scouting groups very much for a course. It is a scouting program and we try to make it very affordable for scouts to use. We sell corporate courses for a good bit more. The problem is that the money made for our course is deposited into the council general fund. Then, it is spent on council needs. Usually, those needs are other than COPE. We have tried to establish a custodial account through the council, but the SE won't do it. I guess they like what revenue we generate. Who knows. Anyway, I have received price quotes for new gear. I just need some cash to buy it with. I have not thought about talking to corporate groups for sponsership. Does REI do that sort of thing? I have to call them leter in the day to get another quote and would be interested in talking to them about it, if they do stuff like that. I am to the point where I will do anything to endure that our program succeeds. I think COPE is a valueable tool to get new people turned on to Scouting. It is a way to get outside adults to the camp to see what it is like. It gets high school aged kids to the camp and possibly spark intrest in Venturing, etc. So, I do not want ot see this thing die. Plus, selfishly, I don't want to see the hard work me and my committee have invested go down the tubes.

As some of you may remember, I have been looking for various ideas for finding money to replace much needed equipment for our COPE course. The problem is that our council (like many others) is operating on a very tight budget. I have asked and begged for spare change in the Council Office with minimal results. As the COPE Committee Chair for our council, I am betweena rock and a hard place. I have to replace gear per BSA standards, but the SE won't come off the cash to do so. I tried to give them a list of stuff with enough advanced notice to ease the pain, but no luck. So, I am looking for other ways to generate funds for required gear. I have an idea that I want to see if it is "BSA legal". I would like to have a raffle. I would like to raffle off either a rifle or shotgun. I have been involved with other groups who have had great success with such fundraisers. Now, as some of you know, I am a police officer. I will make sure that the transferring of a firearms is done legally through a federal firearms licensee. The winner must abide by all laws just as if they bought it at the store. Now, to keep this civil, I would request that debates of pro/anti firearms be left to another thread. But, is there anything in BSA regs that would not allow such a raffle? If it is against regs, what other fundraisers would you recommend? Thanks in advance. OX

Stay in scouting. You will regret is a great deal if you quit now. Stay with it...it is worth it.

Bob and DS, I was hoping you both would chime in! Thanks for the help. I understand the SE's position on money. I know he must account for every penny and his job rides on that. I have no problem with that. I guess we are looking to head that problem off at the pass. Our intentions were to be able to raise enough money for COPE to be self-supporting so no Council funds would need to be spent on us. Bob's comments had me thinking. We have also talked about getting the council involved in a way. We thought trying to sell them through the council and split the kitty. Basically, we would let the council keep a certain percentage for helping us pitch the project. This would also help with the tax-exempt issues, would it not? OX

I was talking with my COPE Committee at a recent meeting. We are about 18 months away from having to replace a good bit of equipment per BSA standards. As with many councils, getting money for such purchases from the Scout Office is like pulling teeth. We have thought of a pretty decent way to raise funds, if it is possible. We have an idea of creating general BSA license plates for vehicles. Not the state-issued tag, but one for the front of your car. We were thinking of a basic design with the Fleur-de-Lis or "Timeless Values" logo incorporated somehow. Now, we want to have the plates made and make them available to any Scouter that wants one. We would probably have to pay royalies to the BSA for the use of trademarked symbols. Knowing this would be fairly time-intensive, would this be something worth doing? OX

hops scout- I will check with the SE. All websites related to council activities (excluding troop sites) must be approved by the council office. I like the idea though. wingnut- That is a very good point. One I had not thought of from that angle. I will pitch that idea and see what happens. Thanks! OX

I understand the costs of mailings. I estimate that we may have 200-250 initial mailers at first. Buffalo- I was in Sam's the other day and found a 50 pack of blank CD-R discs for $12. I am thinking that we would get no more than a 1 in 4 response for more information making that 50 pack enough (for now). In my area, it would be considerably cheaper to make the CDs than pay for a webpage and have someone keep it updated. My targets are going to be corporates, church groups then schools. I recently found out about a company 25 miles from my course that sent 12 staffers to Oregon at $1400 each for a 4 day challenge course identical to our COPE course. The company was upset that they did not know such a course existed locally. We tend to make our money of the non-scouting groups. Granted, we don't make a killing, but this allows us to offer the proram to scout groups at a VERY reduced rate (usually $5 per scout for a weekend course). I am meeting with my SE soon to get his blessing and hopefully his finanical support. Keep the ideas coming! OX

Well, I am back again requesting the help of the group. My name is OX and I'm an...oh, wait..wrong forum Seriously, as my council's COPE Chairman, I am tasked with overseeing and guiding the council's COPE programs. Part of that job is to "pitch" the program to various groups in an attempt to let them know the benefits of such a course. I am about to try to create an advertising program and need some guidance. Let me tell you my idea and you folks tell me what you think (good, bad, etc.). Keep in mind that money is (always) tight and any plan MUST be as cost effective as possible. I want to establish a "tiered" plan. The first part is the creation of a mass mailed brochure. Thinking about printing basic COPE information on a standard sheet of paper (front and back). We would leave a space blank so we could tri-fold it, staple, stamp and mail. It would contain a couple pics and very basic info about COPE and a contact person. We are planning on getting the local Chambers of Commerce to give us mailing lists for corporations to send this to. If the corporate contact is interested, they can call the contact person and request more information. This takes us to the second tier. The second level is the mailing of a more detailed information packet when requested. Inside this packet would be a letter from me pitching COPE, course price lists, a CD-ROM containing a PowerPoint presentation, digital pictures and a short 3-4 minute movie/commercial about our program. If they are still interested after seeing all that, they call and schedule a face-to-face meeting with a member of the COPE committee. This moves to level three. At the personal meeting, which can be a one-on-one or with the entire potential group, they can ask questions not covered in the materials, etc. My thinking with this setup was that we could cheaply print up the mass mailers knowing that not every company/ school will respond. We won't have to create as many detailed packets (level 2), thus saving money. The blank CD-ROMs can be bought in bulk cheaply and burned by members of the COPE staff. The personal visit is the most "costly" as it requires someone's volunteered time. No need to make that the first step by any means. Also to keep costs down, I am thinking about trying to contact the local University's Marketing Department and see if maybe an upper level class would like to take on the task of creating the mass mailer and CD movie/pics for a class project. COPE would have the class come out and participate in a weekend COPE course at NO COST to them. That way they get the footage they need and can do COPE for free. We would give them "free range" to create an ad campaign that they like. I would be able to assist them with gathering information and presentation materials only and would leave the design and creation up to them. So, what are your thoughts on this plan? Anything you would change? Something that could be done better? Sorry for the long post and thanks in advance! OX

rooster, true. good point. OX

The UPDATE begins! I spoke with our SE yesterday afternoon. It seems that the individuals who reported all this stuff to me are VERY reluctant to speak with the SE formally and make a written statement against the guy in question. The SE is reluctant to completely ax him based solely on the info that was relayed to me. But, now that I still have staffing problems with COPE, I, as the COPE Committee Chairman, am going to have to sit down with him and lay it out for him. Basically, I wil tell him what I have been told (but not by who). I am not that interested in hearing his defense, but just to make it understood that this type of behavior will not be tolerated. And should I receive a credible complaint, he is gone with no questions asked. The SE told me that the guy will not be allowed to be on staff for any COPE event where minors are present. He can work our corporate courses. So, that is where things stand now. I'm off to prepare my "speech". OX

acco, I noticed that our adult leaders wanted to keep that mindset from ever getting into the heads of boys. The started the moment the wall board went up by pitching it as a tool to congratulate the older scouts for their accomplishments, while at the same time allow the younger scouts to see that it is possible to achieve success. When you tell a tenderfoot that he has to earn "X" number of merit badges, etc. to become an Eagle scout, that number sounds like an impossibility. But, when they can see the awards earned by the star and life scouts in his own troop, ans see just how close they are, it allows them to get a feeling that they can do it too. It is all in how it is presented. The adults must be mindful not to let it become a source of negativity within the troop, but rather a source of inspiration for each scout. OX

When I was a boy scout about a decade ago, we had an ASM who was BIG into woodwork. He was retired and enjoyed making wooden furniture, etc. He started with a 4' x 8' sheet of plywood (turned sideways). He then took small half-inch strips of wood and made a "grid" on it. Each block that was formed was about a 2 inch square. It was just big enough to hold a merit badge patch. Down the entire left side, were spots to place a strip of wood where he carved the scouters name on it. That way, each scouter has his own row of "blocks" on the board. There were about 50 or so blocks per row. The entire thing was stained a very nice walnut color then coated with a gloss clear coat. He then got strips of plexiglass that were 1-inch tall and ran the entire section of merit badge blocks next to each scouters name. That plexiglass was screwed down to the board, even with the bottom edge of each scouters row of blocks. What he would do was, place the scouters name in a slot on the left side. For every merit badge that scouter earned, he received one for his unifom and one for the wall board. At the presentation ceremony, each scouter got to get up in front of everyone and go place hs merit badge in a slot next to his name. The merit badge was placed behind the small strip of plexiglass (which did not fully cover the block) so it would not fall out, but still remain visible. Right before I left, the ASM made name places with a place to put a rank patch. That way, the younger (or new) scouts could visually look at that board and see all the merit badges the older scouts had earned and then see that they were at a higher rank. It sort of put into perspective that if you want to succeed in scouting and advance in rank, there was work to be done. It gave the younger scouts something to strive for. On the remaining space on the right hand side of the board, he hung a very decorative handmade design of the scout logo. OX(This message has been edited by OXCOPS)

Well, I had to go out to camp yesterday for various reasons. One was that the SE wanted me and the Camp Director to have the same talk I had with the SE. The SE briefed the Camp Dir. prior to my arrival, but wanted me to give him some details. While in that meeting, I had a female barge in and interrupt us. She was IRRATE! She just had an encounter with this guy that she believed to be inappropriate. While I will spare you all the details, the Camp Director has now decided that he feels the best course of action is to remove the guy's membership in the BSA ans sever all ties completely. (I agree.) He will talk with the SE Monday and they will decide what course of action to take. The SE said he wanted me to remain informed of what happens, so I will report back should I hear something. I have a feeling that this young man's adult career in the BSA is about to be cut short. OX

btps- I am not sure what his job at camp has been. The girls work with administration, trading post, etc. He has been able to have a lot of contact with the girls. The second group of girls, who are my COPE IITs, are not working at summer camp at all. Their interaction with this guy happened back during the spring at a COPE staff training class. OX

UPDATE: Well, after getting off work this morning, I had a chance to get some sleep. Just as soon as I get into that deep sleep stage, the SE calls. (They always seem to have a great sense of timing, don't they.) Anyway, I tell him what I know and he is no real thrilled about the situation. He said that he is going to talk to the Camp Director and let him in on it all. Since I have to be at camp later this morning, he is going to tell the camp director to find me and get the details. My initial impression from the SE is that he is going to err on the side of caution and SEVERELY limit the guy's involvement with the BSA, if he is stll allowed to remain a member. There is a little more information for him to gather and it is just too early to say at this point. That is where we stand right now and I'll keep you all posted. Thanks for all the help and advice so far. OX

Eagle74 posted my main concern woth Explorer posts in police departments. For those who don't know, I am a police officer. There is no good way to maintain the two deep leadership while a youth is doing a ride along in a patrol car. In order to maintain that two deep, you would have to have at least 3 people in the car, which puts someone in the back. The problem here is that is where those arrested are placed. You really don't want to have people, especially a youth riding in the back of a police car with Joe Crackhead. I personally do not believe kids have any business being on patrol in a police car in the first place. By nature of teh job, there is just too much danger that COULD happen. Not something I am in favor of. OX

OldGreyEagle, My apologies. I must say that I am pleasantly suprised by all the replies received so far. It really helps me alot. Eagle74 said, "Maybe this thread and the one over in Issues & Politics re: police explorers (see the first sentence of my post there) are more closely related than we would like to think? " For the record, while I am a cop, I have NEVER played the touchy-feely with anyone, especially a minor. I am also proud to say that I am not affiliated with ANY of the agencies of officer involved in that ordeal. OX

Well, I never heard back from the SE today. According to the secretary, he was "in a meeting for the rest of the day". I left a home and cell number for him to call and told the girl that it was a very important Youth Protection matter. Since he didn't call, I may wait and call him at home later tonight....say about 2:00 AM? I'll be at work and should have time then. I bet he wold LOVE to hear from me then! Seriously, I have to go to camp tomorrow so maybe I will get lucky and find him there. But this brings me to another question. While at camp, should I mention all this to the Camp Director also? Or would it be better to speak only with the SE and let him pass on the info? I'm guessing option 2. OX

HOLY CRAP! I go get some sleep this morning and you people take the ball and run with it! Get ready for another one of my marathon posts. I will attempt to address questions/comments by several members individually. nldscout- As posted above, we allow female staff members in several area of camp. There are propbably 6-8 on staff this summer. One of which was the first one who brought this whole thing to my attention. As far as the camp director goes, I am not sure where he has been. I do know that he, as usual, is going in 15 different directions all the time. I would have to guess that no one has mentioned it to him yet. btps- Another clarification. The IITs with COPE are not working COPE during summer camps. The unwanted comments and attention from him came during a staff training day back in the spring. These girls mainly work when we have non-scouting groups come for a weekend COPE course. Rooster7- I assure you that while it may not sound like it, I believe in the innocent until proven guilty philosophy. That doesn't mean I can't be suspicious. See below for additional response to some of your points. OldGreyEagle- I assure you that this is not going ot be dropped. I have a call in to the Scout Exec and am waiting on him to return my call. I refuse to have this hanging over my head. kwc57- You are probably right about my "cop side" coming out. That is just the way I am wired, I guess. However, let me clarify something. I didn't contact a police investigator first on purpose. I work night shift. I happened to get in touch with this detective while at work. This was after regular hours at the scout office and no one was there. Due to my work/sleep schedule, I was not able to contact the scout office until this afternoon. Now, just waiting on a call back. ------------------------------- Now, I have been informed that due to there ages, they are not in violation of any state laws. That wil pretty much rule out any criminal action. But, I am confused about something. Bob White said that the job of the BSA is to recogognize and report a problem to the proper authorities, rather than gather facts about it. Now, what can be done if they are not breaking any state laws? Should the Scout Exec think they are in violation of BSA policy, who is to do the fact finding to determine yes or no? If nothing criminal occurs, then law enforcement will not get involved, leaving only the BSA to handle things internally. As of right now, all the evidence available is circumstantial. But, there is enough of it to cause concern. Enough of which leads me to believe that it should be reported to the SE. Since I don't run things, I am going to notify the SE of what I have been told and what I know. It will be up to him to decide whether enough is there to pursue or to simply hang up the phone and continue his day. I do not see how that is cowardly to report something you beleive to be a concern. Rooster, no flame intended at all, but while I understand your point about "reporting rumor" just for the sake of it, I do not think you ar giving me enough credit. When approached about his situation, I handle it like I would any other in police work (even though some say I shouldn't). I got the reporting parties side of the story and asked some questions as I have been trained by the state. After getting priliminary information, I went to other sources to get statements to corroberate the first report. I have been trained in a couple of great techniques of helping me to determine fact from fiction. You forget, I deal with liars and cheats everyday. When someone comes to me with a genuine concern, you can tell they are legit. I get their info, then try to get other independant info to support it. My sources do not know that the other one has reported anything. Both people told me (without knowing they told me anything) almost the same story as the other. There are several pieces of information I have that I will be a paycheck that are true. There are others that I only have speculation. There is even more that I am not sure of the validity. That is why I am going to tell the SE what I know and let him figure it all out. That is what he gets the big bucks to do. Respectfully, OX(This message has been edited by OXCOPS)

Gentlemen, I started this thread in an attempt to get some knmowledge about the selection of leaders for a Venturing Crew. There has been a lot of good information discussed so far. But, can we are going to have to agree to disagree and DEBATE the issues rather than ARGUE with personal jabs. Thanks, OX

Dave and others: I think I may have accidentally added some confusion somewhere in the thread. Let me see if I can get this thing straight . OK. I understand that there are two seperate issues here. The BSA side and the legal side. While both may require the help of the other at some point, they are independant of each other. With that said, I have talked unofficially with an investigator here at my department. I wanted to get his advice on the legal side and see if any laws were broken. I informed him that I would be required to report this to the BSA via the council Scout Executive. I told the detective that he may be receiving a call from Mr. "X" and wanted him to have a "heads up". When (not if) the scout exec calls the police department, the official inquiry can begin. The detective has asked me to get all the names, addresses and phone numbers of the involved parties, if possible. This is not unusual for me to do for cases in shich I am not otherwise involved. I have compiled a list of what I can at the moment. The rest is up to him once an official case is started. Now for the BSA side. I plan on calling the Scout Exec tomorrow afternoon when I wake up. I am currently at work and do not get off until 6AM. I can not stay up until 8 or 9 waiting on him to get to the office. That means that Thursday afternoon will be the earliest I can call. I plan on giving him a BRIEF run down and ask to meet with him somewhere in person and soon. I have a two fold concern on the BSA side. First, this behavior is against everything the BSA stands for. It violates the scout oath and law. It is not the image or perception we want to send to scouts, their parents, prospective members or the general public. Second, this person is a COPE staff member. I have other staff members (teenage girls) who refuse to work if this person is around. He has hit on them and they are scared of him. That is behavior I can't tolerate at COPE. It defeats the entire basis of the 7 core goals of COPE. I assure you that something is going to happen and it will be soon. Thanks for all the advice. OX

OK. I have spoken to an investigator here at work. I also did some background investigating, which needs to be done before anything can advance from the law enforcement standpoint. I found that the guy is not 24 as thought. He is 21. I still have not confirmed the girls age, but am almost positive she is 16. Due to my work schedule, I won't be able to get to the Scout Service Office until Friday. The office is a 45 minute one-way trip and will take an afternoon to get over there and back. I could call and relay this stuff over the phone. My thinking is that a conversation like this is better done face to face. However, I could call tomorrow afternoon. So, I think I am going to wait until Friday to go see him in person. Also the mother who has been reporting this to me is to call me back with more details sometime Thursday. (Not to worry. She is not doing any investigating, merely getting a list of times/dates of his calls to her.) More to come from the saga as it becomes available. OX

Thanks for the replies so far. I don't know if this matters, but I am not on staff for camp. The only connection I have with this guy is that he is a COPE Director and I am the COPE Committee Chairman. As far as any investigations, I am going to go talk with an investigator at the ofice in the morning. I believe the guy's apartment is in my jurisdiction. Tha camp is about 20 miles away in the next county. But, since nothing took place at camp, and only in his apartment, it is in my agency's jurisdiction to investigate. Even if no state laws were broken, the Scout Law was. I won't tolerate shady behavior like this, if I can help it. Lasteagle83, I am almost positive that at 16 she is considered a consenting adult legally. However, that still doesn't negate the point you made (that I agree with) about him taking advantage of her. eisely, Good idea about taking a few notes. Every now and then I an required to conduct internal investigations on some of our part time employees at work. I learned a long time ago that even at 26, my mind ain't what it used to be. Write it down! Laurie, I am not sure if a 16 year old needs parental permission to leave camp. Her mother is staying in camp and is on staff too. From what I have gathered, she really doesn't care if her daughter leaves or not. That will be a question asked when I talk to the scout executive. I have another uestion. Should I even let the COPE COmmittee in on this? We are a good group. There are MANY years of combined scouting experience in there. I trust these people to keep their mouths shut about what is discussed. Personally, I think that they are a vital source of advice and wisdom for me when it comes to COPE and other BSA stuff. Knowing some, they may also wish to go to the scout executive with me just to be a show of support. Good idea to talk to them or not? Thanks for the advice so far, and keep it coming. I will keep you posted as this progresses. OX

OK. I'm back with another round of questions. This time it is geared towards unsavory conduct by someone. Let me just lay out the details, as I know them. I am the council COPE Committee chairman. I have a new Director, who is 24. He has been on staff for about a month. He was also a staff member at summer camp this year, but not with COPE. I was recently informed that while at summer camp, he began to "get to know" a 16 year old female kitchen staffer. They have been leaving camp at night and driving 20 miles back to his apartment and spending the night. Rumor (yes, I know) is that this is not the first female from this age group he has had "relations" with. I had the mother of another 16 year old female camp staff member call me saying that this guy has continuously been calling her wanting her daughter to come see him at his apartment. Mom said no obviously. Daughter is scared of the guy. I have also overheard some of my female COPE IIT's (15-17 years old) talking about him hitting on them also. Now, a few other tidbits before I ask questions. As some of you know, I am a 26 year old cop. This guy's apartment is inside my jurisdiction. I am not sure about my state's statutory rape laws, but I believe that the female is just old enough to be considered a consenting adult. I will be looking into that tomorrow at work. However, I still do not think that this is appropriate conduct for an individual who is associated with the BSA. I also have reservations of him working with the girls who are our IIT's. They have said they do not feel comfortable around him. Now, question time. What action can I or should I take as far as scouting goes? I am playing with several ideas. 1. Talk with members of the COPE Committee and see what their recommendations are? Termination, in-house counciling, suspension? 2. Talk with the Scout Executive and/or Camp Director and see what the council wants to do. I feel that our Scout Exec. will request his resignation from any postion in the council. 3. All of the above? 4. Leave it alone. I am still going to talk to an investigator at the office and run the deal by him. Hopefully, he can let me know of the legalities involved from the criminal aspect, although that is not my intentions. But, I am required by law to investigate any suspected case of abuse against a minor that is brought to my attention. That said, I do think that guy is in the clear as far as the age thing. Reason I bring all this up is that I do not accept his behavior. I think that a 24 year old guy has nothing to do with a 16 year old girl. I also think that it doesn't send a very positive message to teh parents of current and potential scouters. So, who wants to go first? Thanks in advance! OX