OneHour

Lisa ... he is almost 17. Palms ... his got his bronze. His father does not want him there because of any salvation that I know of. Frankly, I'm not sure why. His father defends his son's various actions or inactions! As a matter of fact, the father is what I would call a double-standard hypocrite. http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=187457 ... that was another story and it's water under the bridge. By the way, I don't think that I have ever mentioned that this scout directly disobeyed my instructions (and the camps') and actually put himself and another scout in danger by venturing into a forbidden area? His father defended his son's action! I'm not sure why I care any more. Maybe because of the boys who are in the troop, some of whom I have know since Tigers! Most of whom, I personally recruited! Maybe because of my sons! Back to the present programming. What would your troop have done? Please remember, a decision by our troop has been rendered. I'm just being curious as to how it stacks up with others' in the scouting world. I'm not looking for advice on how to deal with this. I'm just being curious.(This message has been edited by OneHour)

Lisabob, rank advancement is not an issue for him. If you remember my previous post, he is an eagle scout. I do believe that he is there because his father is forcing him to attend. This is an eagle with behavior problems that his father refuses to recognize.

The physical issue was dealt with by the SM. The incident happened as follows: It was the end of the "game time." My son was the ASPL trying to herd the cats into their respective patrols. This scout did not like the fact that my son stopped the "dodge-ball" that he was finishing. He took one of the ball at pointblank (2-3 feet) threw it to my son's head! He had a SMC with the boy and the boy apologized ... end of story. Most of the adults especially his father chalked it down as boys will be boys. To me, it was an assault and my son could have been hurt seriously. I did not complain. The later ... supposedly the Council and District were contacted. It was said that it is a troop's discipline issue. I don't know for a fact since I have not been back to troop for the past 6 months. I just want to find out the gravity of the situation for those who are in the knows and those who have experienced it. Frankly, I am not comfortable with the decision and may withdraw my sons from the troop. Now, let's get back to the original question, how would your troop resolve the issue if it were your troop?(This message has been edited by OneHour)

Bob ... giving the fact that this is the scout who has bullied 3 younger scouts (one of which is my son) and has physically hurt my oldest son. The scout is the one who is the reason why I am not serving any more, I'm afraid my judgement might be harsh! I just want to see what say the population before I comment on what was decided by our Troop.(This message has been edited by OneHour)

Every summer camp, I would get at least one ... ... a courteous homesick scout. About 4 years ago, around 1-2am (not sure why at 1-2), but a scout ever so quietly walked up to my tent. He was very careful not to disturb others. I am a very light sleeper and even then I wasn't awaken by the scout until a flashlight shone right on my face and a faint whisper: "Mr. P, are you up? Pssst..., Mr. P, are you up?" I would reply, "No, I'm not, Johnny. Go back to your tent and sleep!" He would go ... "Oh, ok, yes sir!" Quietly, went back to his tent. About 20 minutes later, he would come back. "What's wrong, Johnny?" I asked. "There are bugs in my tent!" (canvas A-frame tents). "Johnny, there are bugs everywhere! It's the wood!" ... this would go on for at least 2 hours! Now, mind you ... there is a selection of 5-6 other adults. Why me? I have not figured it out! ... but I wouldn't trade it for anything else! Perhaps, that's what I miss about scouting!(This message has been edited by OneHour)

What would be an appropriate consequence for a older scout who was caught and confessed that he smoked pot on a campout?

Hey Pack, If the boys considered me as a "mother-hen" once-upon-a-time, that would count, no? Happy Mother's Day to all Moms! 1Hour

... a good method is by meeting night. Split it into two meeting nights, get yourself another den leader ... 2 volunteers for the new den are even better (first thing before parents), have a talk with the parents about the situation and intro the new leader(s), have them sign up for the night of their preference, and then divide the rest based on relationship preference. Worked well before when we had to split 15 cubs. Good luck.

BSA Lifeguard cert was tough for me. 300 yards was the required swim; however, our summer camp instructor got the group to swim 300 on the day and he would add 100 yd each day. By week end, we swam 700 yds and a total of 2500 yd. This is in addition to all of the rescue techniques, 25 yd speed swim, and so on. It was tough on a 40+ years old body to go through it especially in 70 degrees water for a week, but it was great to have the 5 scouts in the class cheering me and four other adults on after they have finished with their swim! All that I have to say is that if I could do it ... any young man can!

A compass such as a Silva Polaris Compass or Suunto A-10 Partner II, or a Brunton F-8010G (~$10-$15) will be very useful for them in boy scout.

Kudu, with all due respect, if Eagle is just a rank and for me to get over it, then what you are saying is: Scouting is just a club. Scout Oath is just some saying. Scout Law is just 12 words. Then what are we all doing here? Why are you fighting for the Patrol Method? Why do I care to even try to figure out how to get the scouting spirit back into me? What my oldest son and his friends just earned through their hard work and leadership meant nothing to no one! Barry is right. It hurts! It's the reason why I am trying to figure out whether or not I should overcome my pride, give in, and come back to the scouts! It's not the Eagle that bothered me! It's the fact that an older boy is bullying younger scouts and nothing other than a simple scoutmaster conference was done! I have a problem with the same boy's father who serves as an ASM being a double-standard hyprocrite! I have a problem with the same man who constantly yells and being tough on the boys without any recourse by the Troop while all along allowing his son to do whatever he pleases! I have a problem with a Troop that continues to allow this pair of father/son to continue to exist within the troop. I have a problem with all that I have done for the Troop amounted to nothing! With all due respect, I still believe in the ideals of scouting and what an eagle stands for! If that is your intention to bring me back to believing ... it worked! Kudu, et. al, you all to me are what the spirit of scouting is all about! Thank you ...

Stosh ... for me ... it's for all of the boys in the Troop! Sometimes, I feel guilty not spend enough time with my own! I feel guilty that I make myself available for other people sons whereas my own have to struggle getting their requirements signed off. For example, my second tried to arrange to complete two partial merit badges with an ASM who happens to mb counsel those mb. The ASM told him to meet during troop meeting and during troop meeting, he didn't have time to work with my son! I chose the 1Hour as my pen name for a reason. It takes 1 hour per boy per week! I would go to troop meeting and would stay 1/2 to 1 hour past troop meeting to work with them on requirements and mb. Do you know what's funny? There would be 2-3 other ASMs there, but my line is always the 4-5 deep. I would tell them to go to the other ASMs and that they could help the scouts, but they would say ... "I'll wait, Mr." I would dedicate 2 hours on Thursday and weekend for merit badge work with the scouts at the local Star Buck (my excuse to pay for those overpriced, overhyped, but darn good coffee). ... I just hope that y'all don't mistaken this as a self-pity thread ... Self Pity I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself. DH Lawrence Perhaps, this is a part of me feeling guilty for having recruited so many boys to this Troop, a part of me that cannot be there to stand up for them. You have to understand the "tough it up, you're a man" attitude of the adult leaders of the troop to appreciate what I said. Those hours of comforting a homesick scout were laughed at ... I was even asked as to why I baby'ing them ... they need to tough it up! They need to learn to be a man. One of those boys whom most of the other 6 scoutmasters in the troop had wrote him off (betting that he will quit) is 2 merit badges away from being a Life. He promised me that he would finish his Eagle. ... and yes, a man does cry, not physically, but internally!

Its Me ... it's not a call out thread, but rather ... a reach out thread! Yes ... I still love my boys in the troop! Of those 82 boys, I personally grew up with 51 of them, a few for 9 years and every one of them since Tigers in our Pack as their Cubmaster! I adopted the other 30 ... they are from the other Pack in the neighborhood! Many summer camp hours spent talking to some of these homesick boys! Many hours spent working with them on their advancement. I was tough, but they didn't mind! Why I didn't take the SM job when offered? In our Troop, the SM is too busy to work with the boys. The ASMs work with the boys ... ok, mostly me! For a while, I constantly have to correct the boys and their parents that I am not the Scoutmaster! I may sound like ... me ... me ... me, but in real life, to the boys and parents, I'm just a happy-go-lucky ASM! The funny thing that that all that I wanted at the start of this whole fiasco is a simple apology from an Eagle scout to my son! I guess that if the troop doesn't realize what it has lost, then it has not lost anything! ... it has become my lost!(This message has been edited by OneHour)

Mike, Thank you. fyi, I have been reading this Forum since 2001 and started to contribute in 2002. This is the place where I learned and shared. I have been a Cubmaster for our current Pack when it was 132 boys strong. I have served in every possible position in the Pack. I have served as our Troop ASM for the past 5 years. I turned down the SM position because I wanted to work with the boys! I helped if not recruited and built our Troop from 24 boys to the current 82. One thing that I won't do this time is to give up my principle. Best, 1Hour

Thank you for the great advices! The District folks have been trying to reel me in for the past 7 years to take on bigger roles, but I have successfully put them off ... however, I do help out with training here and there, staffing for events here and there ... nothing full time. If I were to make the offer or they catch wind of my availability, I would be doing the scouting bits again. I do have a Wolf and I am his den leader. I just don't have the passion that I have had the last 9 years. I would have thought that the Pack would have gotten me excited about scouting again, but instead, a pair of parents there are in the process of ruin it for everyone. The wife is the current CC and she asked our current CM to step down so that her husband can take on the job so that he can get the CM knot! What is so important about knots that one would willing to break the Pack apart? ... and there is the troop where I have missed the most. I missed working with the boys. I missed being there with my two older sons! I missed the comraderees with the other adults. The two local scout troops caught wind of my "unemployment" offered me their SM position. Three of the parents in the troop tried to convince me to start a new troop. I respectfully declined the offers. I don't want to make it into a case of me vs. the ASM. This is the program for the scout. I don't want to be the adult who ruined it for the boys! Frankly, I just don't feel the magic any more. 30 minutes ago when I went to get the mail. I ran into one of the scouts. He said hi and asked me when I would come back to the troop. He then went on and said that he and a lot of the others missed having me around. That is what really gets to me. The problem is that coming back into the troop I cannot face the ASM who is the cause of my disenchantment. The problem is that the SM and CC act as if nothing happened. The boy who bullied three other scouts including my son got a simple scoutmaster conference. I cannot go back to a troop that starts to question my eligibility to counsel merit badge outside of the Troop time! When I resigned my ASM position, at the request of several boys and parents, I continued to function as a merit badge counselor. This past February, I did not recharter with the troop (but still registered with BSA on the Pack side). So they question my elgibility. It would have been fine if it is applied across the board (ie. with other parents whose registration with BSA were no longer current as a mb counselor). Stosh, I have not sweat the small stuffs for a while now. I am the most patient man that one will find. What happened has caused me to lose the meaning of being a scout and what the Scout Oath and Law mean. I just don't know any more. Bob White, you have quit this Forum twice because people challenged you and twice you came back (welcome back by the way). You are the most "by the book" scouter on this forum. What did you do to get yourself back online ... joining the scouting forum again? I would love to go into further details about what happened, but let's put it this way, when I tried to talk face-to-face during that fateful troop meeting in November, the man threatened to press charge on me. When that happened, I stopped playing the game! Perhaps, I regretted my outburst that night (which I apologized to each scout personally). Thank you again for allowing me to confide with you all. I am truly seeking for your advice. My old time Forum friends, Bob? Barry? Eamonn? Ed? Its Me? Semper? packsaddle? MikeF (my SHAC friend)? Why should I do this again? YIS(This message has been edited by OneHour)

I have been off the Troop's payroll since November. I could not convince my son to join another troop, but he wants to finish his Eagle with his friends (he is 1 SMC and BOR from Life). I had several parents asking me to come back. I had several scouts asking me to come back; however, the SM and CC have not; as a matter of fact, they finally got off their duffs to seek out 2 new ASMs and a new MB counselor. Frankly, since November, I have lost the meaning of scouting. My respect for Eagle scout rank is lost because of the bad experience that I had with the eagle scout (and his father, another eagle scout). My better half is making me feel very guilty for I did, but I had a principle that I must stand on. I am trying to find the meaning of scout again. Can you help me? If you want to criticize me for being selfish or that I was wrong, then please save your typing energy. That's not what I asked. I just want to know how I can regain my love for scouting and its principles. In other words, what have you done when you have lost the love for scouting in order to get back on track? Thank you in advance! 1Hour

... it could also be the fact that: 1) they are waiting for all congratulatory letters to come in, 2) preparing the scrapt book(s), 3) figuring out the best time to get all relatives, friends, and scouts together, 4) does not know that the family gets to plan the CoH, or 5) having nothing to do with the glamour of an Eagle CoH. If 5 is the case, then a simple recognition at the Troop meeting is a nice thing to do. Either way, the SM should ping the family on the CoH.

"Hmm to be perfectly honest I dont know what river it is" Hmmm ... I think that y'all will need to study the river carefully, including put-in spots, any portage places, eddies, rapids, exit locations, etc. Note guideline #7 (Planning) below. File a float plan with the local authority. Here is the BSA Safety Afloat guidelines. You should follow them since apparently you have beginners and possibly non-swimmers. We, in BSA, all have to follow these guidelines to the letter. Safety Afloat Safety Afloat has been developed to promote boating and boating safety and to set standards for safe unit activity afloat. Before a BSA group may engage in an excursion, expedition, or trip on the water (canoe, raft, sailboat, motorboat, rowboat, floating in an inner tube, or other craft), adult leaders for such activity must complete Safety Afloat Training, No. 34159, have a commitment card, No. 34242, with them, and be dedicated to full compliance with all ninepoints of Safety Afloat. 1. Qualified Supervision All activity afloat must be supervised by a mature and conscientious adult age 21 or older who understands and knowingly accepts responsibility for the well-being and safety of the children in his or her care, who is experienced and qualified in the particular watercraft skills and equipment involved in the activity, and who is committed to compliance with the nine points of BSA Safety Afloat. One such supervisor is required for each 10 people, with a minimum of two adults for any one group. At least one supervisor must be age 21 or older, and the remaining supervisors must be age 18 or older. All supervisors must complete BSA Safety Afloat and Safe Swim Defense training and rescue training for the type of watercraft to be used in the activity, and at least one must be trained in CPR. It is strongly recommended that all units have at least one adult or older youth member currently trained as a BSA Lifeguard to assist in the planning and conducting of all activity afloat. For Cub Scouts: The ratio of adult supervisors to participants is one to five. 2. Physical Fitness All persons must present evidence of fitness by a complete health history from a physician, parent, or legal guardian. Adjust all supervision, discipline, and protection to anticipate any risks associated with individual health conditions. In the event of any significant health conditions, a medical evaluation by a physician should be required by the adult leader. 3. Swimming Ability A person who has not been classified as a "swimmer" may ride as a passenger in a rowboat or motorboat with an adult swimmer, or in a canoe, raft, or sailboat with an adult who is trained as a lifeguard or a lifesaver by a recognized agency. In all other circumstances, the person must be a swimmer to participate in an activity afloat. Swimmers must pass this test: Jump feetfirst into water over your head. Swim 75 yards in a strong manner using one or more of the following strokes:�sidestroke, breaststroke, trudgen, or crawl; then swim 25 yards using an easy resting backstroke. The 100 yards must be swum continuously and include at least one sharp turn. After completing the swim, rest by floating. This qualification test should be renewed annually. 4. Personal Flotation Equipment Properly fitted U.S. Coast Guard-approved personal flotation devices (PFDs) must be worn by all persons engaged in activity on the open water (rowing, canoeing, sailing, boardsailing, motorboating, waterskiing, rafting, tubing, kayaking, and surfboarding). Type II and III PFDs are recommended. 5. Buddy System All activity afloat necessitates using the buddy system. Not only must every individual have a buddy, but every craft should have a "buddy boat" when on the water. 6. Skill Proficiency All participants in activity afloat must be trained and experienced in watercraft handling skills, safety, and emergency procedures. (a) For unit activity on white water, all participants must complete special training by a BSA Aquatics Instructor or qualified whitewater specialist. (b) Powerboat operators must be able to meet requirements for the Motorboating merit badge or equivalent. © Except for whitewater and powerboat operation as noted above, either a minimum of three hours' training and supervised practice or meeting requirements for "basic handling tests" is required for all float trips or open-water excursions using unpowered craft. (d) Motorized personal watercraft, such as the Jet Ski and SeaDoo, are not authorized for use in Scouting aquatics, and their use should not be permitted in or near BSA program areas. For Cub Scouts:�Canoeing, kayaking, rowing, and rafting for Cub Scouts (including Webelos Scouts) are to be limited to council/district events on flat water ponds or controlled lake areas free of powerboats and sailboats. Prior to recreational canoeing and kayaking, Cub Scouts are to be instructed in basic handling skills and safety practices. 7. Planning Float Plan Obtain current maps and information about the waterway to be traveled. Know exactly where the unit will "put in" and "pull out" and what course will be followed. Travel time should be estimated generously. Review the plan with others who have traveled the course recently. Local Rules Determine which state and local regulations are applicable, and follow them. Get written permission to use or cross private property. Notification File the float plan with parents or participants and a member of the unit committee. File the float plan with the local council office when traveling on running water. Check in with all those who should be notified when returning. Weather Check the weather forecast just before setting out, and keep an alert weather eye. Bring all craft ashore when rough weather threatens. Contingencies Planning must identify possible emergencies and other circumstances that could force a change of plans. Appropriate alternative plans must be developed for each. For Cub Scouts:�Cub Scout canoeing, kayaking, rowing, and rafting do not include "trips" or "expeditions" and are not to be conducted on running water (i.e., rivers or streams); therefore, some procedures are inapplicable. Suitable weather requires clear skies, no appreciable wind, and warm air and water. 8. Equipment All equipment must be suited to the craft, to water conditions, and to the individual; must be in good repair; and must satisfy all state and federal requirements. Spare equipment or repair materials must be carried. Appropriate rescue equipment must be available for immediate use. 9. Discipline All participants should know, understand, and respect the rules and procedures for safe unit activity afloat. The applicable rules should be presented and learned prior to the outing, and should be reviewed for all participants at the water's edge just before the activity begins. When Scouts know and understand the reasons for the rules, they will observe them. When fairly and impartially applied, rules do not interfere with the fun. Rules for safety, plus common sense and good judgment, keep the fun from being interrupted by tragedy. Note: For cruising vessels (excluding rowboats, canoes, kayaks, and rafts, but including sailboats and powerboats greater than 20 feet long) used in adult-supervised unit activities by a chartered Venturing crew/ship specializing in watercraft operations, or used in adult-supervised program activity in connection with any high-adventure program or other activity under the direct sponsorship and control of the National Council, the standards and procedures in the Sea Scout Manual may be substituted for the Safety Afloat standards. Reference: Safety Afloat, No. 34368 and in the Online Learning Center Personal Flotation Devices (PFDs) Properly fitted U.S. Coast Guard-approved personal flotation devices (PFDs) must be worn by all persons engaged in activity on the open water (rowing, canoeing, sailing, boardsailing, motorboating, waterskiing, rafting, tubing, and kayaking). Only U.S. Coast Guard-approved equipment (types I, II, or III) is acceptable for use in Scouting aquatics. Ski belts are not acceptable. Scouts and unit leaders should learn which type is appropriate for each specific circumstance and how to wear and check for proper fit. Since you indicate that you will have folks who have never done this before, it would be wise to do the training as your friend suggested on calm, flat water such as a lake first. Maneuvering a canoe is not as intuitive as it seems. It is even more difficult in moving water, even in Class I rapid. Beginners who have never done moving water canoeing will get themselves in to big troubles with Class II and definitely Class III. It is necessary to figure out how to deal with eddies and how to get out of them. Moving water canoeing will require quick decisions in terms of strokes to avoid flipping over. If you were to pair them up, one experienced moving water canoeist should be paired with a beginner. Definitely make sure you plan and plan well! This includes knowing the weather and the movement of the water. What is one day a Class I rapid can turn into a Class III or IV because of large amount snow melt as indicated before. Bottom line ... nothing beats training, planning, and understanding! PFDs may not look cool, but they save lives! So, PFDs, PFDs, PFDs, and did I mention PFDs? One final advise, the PFDs need to be worn correctly ... not drape over for the sake of wearing them! Best of luck!

All of the above are sound pointers; however, one important lesson that I learned from my training with Sam Houston Area Council canoe training course ... ... when all else fails, "it's always your canoe buddy's fault!" Have fun! PFDs, PFDs, PFDs, and PFDs.

Solution 1: Print out all the pictures of prefab cars and compare. Show the list during Pack meeting prior to check-in. Solution 2: Ask the cub about how he and his dad built the car. (Oh ... my dad bought ours off eBay ... or ... we re-used last year's car! ... etc.) Kids at that age usually do not tell a fib very well. Solution 3: Imprint Pack # or any marking on the bottom of the car and asked that space to be left unpainted or at least easily be identified. No print=dq Solution 4: (my personal favorite) go to www.derbytalk.com and learn all the tricks of the trade and share it with everyone! Then go about and beat the $100 car. In our pack, I do not think that we have a problem with prefab cars. Every boy's car is very competitive to the point where 1st-10th is separated by less than .02 seconds. We would hold workshop. Would help everyone at check-in. Good luck!

"Scouts and Scouters are people too, will always eventually let you down." Agreed, whole-heartedly! But it was time that I need to stop being an Assistant Scoutmaster and be a Father to my sons and come their defense! Believe me, I have bitten my tongue and held my judgement! I am not an Eagle Scout and am very flawed, but I tried to live up to the Eagle Scout and scouting ideals ... for my sons'. Cheers ...

... a quotation from my speech ... at last two Eagle CoHs ... this past Friday and Saturday night! It was just my way of trying to find the meaning of scouting and Eagle Scout again! I just hope that the Eagle and his Eagle dad who caused me to lose my faith and belief in the troop, the rank, and the ideals listened and figured out its message! My last post on this board was 11/18/2007 and I have been off the Troop's payroll since! Cheers ... ps: just doing some soul-searching on whether it's worth it or not.(This message has been edited by OneHour)

Eagle Scout is not just a rank, but a way of life. Earn it, then live it!

jhubb ... actually, I have been very diplomatic and the email was the best medium. Face-to-face, I would not have been able to hold my tongue and all my scouting beliefs and teachings would have been out the window! I have been very patient for the last 3 years with both father and son. I have been very diplomatic. I have allowed boys to resolve the problem themselves, including problems between this young man and my oldest. This young man has been less than a stellar scout, doing everything from hiding from doing troop chores to blatantly picking/taunting a younger scout, to lying and outrightly defied me, etc., ... something that I have not really mentioned. How he got his Eagle is something that will be a mystery to me. His father replied to my email. The problem with meeting face-to-face, he will defend his son and I will defend mine. Let's put it this way, we are meeting face-to-face with our SM as the facilitator. I have apologized to my SM ahead of time for unscout-like behavior and I have all but resigned my post with the troop. This is good since I now I will have a lot of time on my hand to take care of the lengthy, overdue "honey do's" list. B., I am still breathing and counting! I am chilled!

Thanks, B. I'm chilling as recommended.