OneHour

Katrina, When I was a Webelos Den Leader for my oldest, I always commenced the meeting with this format (by the way the Denner and his parent get to help with the planning ... part of my introduction to the scouting's Patrol Method): 1) Gathering activities. 2) Always start at 7:00pm sharp (whether there are 2 or 10 Webelos). So punctuality was always my aim and the parents knew before hand. 3) My Denner would lead the Den in presenting the Colors. The Denner called out the Colors Command with two other Webelos as Honor Guards (including the Pledge of Alligiance). This is a good practice for their turn as the Pack Color Guards. 4) Then the Boy Scout Motto or Law (vice versa at Closing) The steps 2-4 takes up about 3 minutes 5) 5 minutes worth of "Business Section" 6) 5 minutes of awards/recognition. 7) 20 minutes worth of activity pin works. (Having them build a fun project such as box hockey that can be easily spread over 2 Den Meetings). 8) 20-25 minutes games/songs/cheers (sometimes this moved to #7 and last 30 minutes). Remember, Den meetings are not all work and no play. It should be mostly play and some work! 9) Review of "home assignment" (parts of the activity pins that they need to finish before the next den meeting or about 2-3 minutes) 10) Closing with Scout Law or Motto (depends on what was done at Opening). Totally 1 hour Get a Den Chief if you can! This way the boys will get used to taking direction from an older scouts! Another prep for the BSA world. Over the summer, believe it or not, most of the new Webelos grew up. They still have the "younger cub" behaviors, but overall they listen to instruction alot better. Before Webelos year started, I sat the parents down and explained to them what the program is about, what they can expect, and what they need to do in order to help their Webelos. I laid down the ground rules (including parental helps and boys' behaviors). After the first Webelos year, you'll be amazed how much the boys have changed since Tigers. At the start of the 2nd-year, I allowed my Webelos to act as a Patrol with the election of a Patrol Leader and an Assistant Patrol Leader. As a patrol, they plan the activities for the remaining six months (including campouts and outings ... of course with my guidance). I was pleasantly surprised how well they adapted to the Patrol Method. One of their choices was to go see a movie together as a Patrol ... and we did! Remember one thing, get trained if you have not done that already, including OWL (Outdoor Webelos Leaders). Get all of the help by attend round table, by asking ex-Webelos Leaders, by taking best practices that you have learned, by utilizing the Webelos handbook, and by having fun with them. One thing that some of the Webelos Den Leaders whom I know failed to do ... is to take their boys out camping! This is a intro to boyscout ... so here is your chance to get them excited about Boy Scout! Toward Spring (or earlier)... visit a troop (eventhough alot of troops doesn't want to bother with 1st-year Webelos). If you have several troops to screen, then ask each troop to sponsor your Den on a Webelos transition campout starting in the Spring time of your 1st Year. Good luck. Webelos year is probably the coolest year for a Cub Scout and for me! 1Hour ps: Don't forget to start to plan for the AOL at the end of your 1st Year!

This is the first that I heard it was called "rule of three"; however, I was taught that it applies in a one-on-one situation such as Scoutmaster's conference, Patrol Leader's conference, PLC, and such, as defined in G2SS: "No one-on-one contact. One-on-one contact between adults and youth members is not permitted. In situations that require personal conferences, such as a Scoutmaster's conference, the meeting is to be conducted in view of other adults and youths." It was explained to me during our Scoutmaster's Basic Training that during merit badge counseling, the boy should attend the merit badge counselor with his buddy or with his parent and part of merit badge counseling guideline is that the counseling session should be conducted always in the presence of three or more. However, for the boys' protection and yours, two-deep leadership should be the rule. Others can correct me on this.

Patrol choices: in Microsoft Words format: http://www.geocities.com/cybercubber/allpatrols.doc or in html format http://www.wildrice.com/Troop339/BSpictures/PatrolEmblems/PatrolEmblems.html (This message has been edited by OneHour)

When I got the Cubmaster position I added two things that our Pack has not done before:1) Run-ons and 2) Allow the Dens to present the Colors including Calling out the Colors commands. As for run-ons, as I do my "Business Page," a boy from the assigned Den would interrupt me with a run-ons joke. It's usually a hit with the kids. I also got a "Cheers" box (Cheers Soap Box) that the Dens can pick out a cheer to teach the Pack. That's another one that the Den looks forward to. If you work the skits into a cycle of 3-4 years, you should get a lot of laughs with the new Dens. Our Pack is somewhat large (14 Dens)... so getting the division of labor is somewhat easy. I usually have one Den that does the Colors, one does the song, one does the skit, and one does the run-ons. From time to time, I would have one does the "business section." If your Pack is smaller, then you have alot more Pack activities to do such as having one Den responsible for the Gathering activities. You could also have a Den responsible for the Pack activities such as interviewing the guest speaker. We had a local weatherman come to our Pack meeting and the "responsible Den" came up with a list of questions to ask the weatherman. We are looking to do one for a local baseball player who happens to live in our neighborhood. (He is not the famous one ... but nevertheless he is an Astros). To keep it fun and interesting, the Cubmaster (and the Den Leaders) should be readied to let his/her hair down and acts silly! That's how the kids would enjoy it even if they have heard the joke or skit before! If you have a stiff upper-lips Cubmaster and/or leader, the mood is basically destroyed and the kids will view the task at hand as a chore! YIS, 1Hour(This message has been edited by OneHour)

acco40 Our problem is that our SM is controlling the When's and the What's and alot of the time the How's and the Who's. It has been three long months of biting my tongues and lips. If I were to say anything or try to change anything, I will be the lone, rebellious wolf. Our CC indicated that changes are coming at the end of the Summer. We will see. 1Hour

This is what usually occurs at our PLC (I am trying to change it): PLC sat and looked at the SM: A) SM: We are going canoeing. This what we will do ... (no division of tasks for troop meeting ... it's shooting from the hip most of the time). PLC writes, writes, writes. me: frowning, frowning, frowning. B)SM: The new scouts will do Tenderfoot requirement. Older patrol plan for trip. PLC takes notes, takes notes, takes notes. me: frowning, frowning, frowning. C) SM: We are going to Summer XXXX. Coordinator will send out information. PLC writes, writes, writes. me: sratching my head wondering, huh, when are the boys going to have an input? D) SM: The new scouts will stay at base camp. The older boys can stay at base camp or go on High Adventure. PLC writes, writes, writes. me: frowning, frowning, frowning. E) SM: We are not doing Popcorn Sales. We are doing car wash to pay for new trailer. PLC writes, writes, writes. me: giving up F) SM is either sleeping or not going to campout. One of the ASM would take the lead. G) SM: We are going to somewhere close. PLC writes, writes, writes. me: frowning, frowning, frowning. H) SM: Scout shirt is all that is required in my Troop (yes, he started the troop)! PLC writes, writes, writes. me: frowning, frowning, frowning. I) SM: (I don't know about this one) He would stop the boys from teasing; however, this is the same guy who introduce me to the PLC as ..."as for the geeky guy standing over there ..." Needless to say contemplating on talking to my son about joining another troop! The problem is my son likes this troop since a lot of his friends are there. By the way, I'm not the SM. I'm just one of the 8-10 ASMs that he has! 1Hour(This message has been edited by OneHour)

Sctmom is correct ... bears can not go camping on their own. We, however, camped, not as a den, but as family camping and we followed all rules and regulation including filing tour permits. That's the clarification that I need to make. Thanks for reminding me, sctmom. From G2SS, "Age Guidelines The Boy Scouts of America has established the following guidelines for its members' participation in camping activities: ... Cub Scouts (second- and third-graders) and Webelos Scouts (fourth- and fifth-graders) may participate in a resident overnight camping program covering at least two nights and operating under certified leadership in an established Scout camp operated by the council during the normal camping season. A Webelos Scout may participate in overnight den camping when supervised by his mother or father. It is essential that each Webelos Scout be under the supervision of an adult. Joint Webelos den-troop campouts are encouraged for dens of fifth-grade Webelos Scouts with their parents to strengthen ties between the pack and troop. Den leaders, pack leaders, and parents are expected to accompany the boys on approved trips. Family Camping Family camping: an outdoor camping experience, other than resident camping that involves Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting or Venturing program elements in overnight settings with two or more family members including at least one BSA member of that family. Parents are responsible for the supervision of their children, and Youth Protection guidelines apply. Recreational family camping Recreational family camping: when Scouting families camp as a family unit outside of an organized program. It is a nonstructured camping experience, but is conducted within a Scouting framework on local council-owned or -managed property. Local councils may have family camping grounds available for rental at reasonable rates. Other resources may include equipment, information, and training. "

It depends on how much time do you have to spare! One hour a week? Great! First and foremost welcome to the Forum and you should be able to find alot of great scouting minds here (present company excluded)! Secondly, get yourself trained! Fast Start, New Leaders Essential, Youth Protection Training, and Den Leader Specifics to start off. Once you get your feet wet, take Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation (BALOO) so that you and your Den parents can take your Den camping. Toward February (University of Scouting) or your District training time frame take the Webelos Leader Specific and then Outdoor Webelos Leaders (OWL) in preparation for next year. When I was a Bear Den Leader for my older son and now for my incoming 2nd Bear, I would sit down right around now and plan the whole year out. What you will need are the calendars for your Pack, school, District, sport, bands, etc. and the Bear handbook. Plan out each week of your activies based on the Bear hand book. Now do not go all requirements at den meetings and no fun. It should be close to 30% requirement and 70% fun stuffs (games, arts & crafts) etc. Below is a sample of what I give to my boys at each den meeting and the Denner would read and lead. If you send me a private email, I will forward to you my whole bear year in a Zip file, including year planner, den meetings , etc. Bear year is where I take the boys to camping ... more so than Wolf. We camped four times that year. Remember, someone in your Den has to be BALOO trained before you can go camping! Remember to keep it fun, Bear year is the hardest year to retain boys. Also involve the parents. If they have fun, the boys will have fun! Cheers, 1Hour ******************************************************************************************* Month Theme: Pocket Denner: Trevor Den Helper: Mr. Steve Lead Gathering (10 min.): - Penny Catch Trick Trevor Opening (5 min.): - Present the Color (7:05 pm) Trevor - Pledge of Allegiance All - Cubscout Promise and Motto All Business (7 min.): - Upcoming events Mr. Bob 1) Beach Clean up (9/16) Activities (33 min.): - Sing "We're Den 1" Mr. Ed - Leadership Mr. Bob - Discuss about America Mr. Bob - Accordion Spinner Mr. Steve - Mosquitoes Cheer Mr. Ed Closing (10 min.): - Recite Law of the Pack All - Carpenter's Cheer Reminders for Bears: 1) Work on your Achievement 1. 2) Learn your song for next Den Meeting 3) Next Den meeting is September 26 at 7:00 pm at Ellis Creek. 4) Get your friend to join (achievement 24a). Note to Parents: 1) Please return the health form, talent form, parents' agreement, and Den Dues ($15). 2) We are planning to attend Duke Energy's Beach Clean Up on September 16. 3) Please work with your Cub on their Achievements at home by next Den meeting. Cheer Carpenter: Pretend to be holding a hammer in one hand and a nail in the other. Start pounding the nail with the hammer while saying, "Bang, Bang, Ouch". Song for Den Meeting # 1 WERE DEN 1 (Tune: Im Popeye the Sailor Man) Were den 1, the Cub Scout boys. Were den 1, the Cub Scout boys. Were strong to the finish, Cause we eat our spinach. Were den 1, the Cub Scout boys. Were den 1, the Cub Scout boys. Were den 1, the Cub Scout boys. We are up to the test, Cause we'll do our best. Were den 1, the Cub Scout boys. ******************************************************************************************* (This message has been edited by OneHour)

Thanks AK-Eagle ... this is exactly what I was looking for in another post. Thanks. 1Hour

We didn't have to have BSA lifeguard since it was in a public pool with lifeguards. "Pool and Surf Swimming The Safe Swim Defense applies to swimming at the beach, private or public pool, wilderness pond, stream, lake, or anywhere Scouts swim. ... Pool--If the swimming activity is in a public facility where others are using the pool at the same time, and the pool operator provides guard personnel, there may be no need for additional designation of Scout lifeguards and lookout. ..." However, you will need to have at least one person trained in Safe Swim and Safety Afloat per: "Before a BSA group may engage in swimming activities of any kind, a minimum of one adult leader must complete Safe Swim Defense training, have a commitment card (No. 34243) with them, and agree to use the eight defenses in this plan." I was the trained Safe Swim and Safety Afloat person for the event; however, I had the Webelos parents and leaders there as well. We had around 23 Webelos performing their Aquanaut requirements. We had it first thing after the pool opened, once at the beginning of the summer and once at the end of the summer and we had the pool all to ourselves. I had them do the swim tests first to pick out the swimmers vs. beginners vs. non-swimmer before we went into the "deep end" test (floating, etc.). I did it twice because I usually advise the parents of the non-swimmers and beginners to enroll their cub in Red Cross or similar swimming lessons during summer so that they can be retest at the end of the summer. This is especially good for the 2nd year Webelos. They would be readied for the scouting swimming requirements. As a matter of fact, there are three pins that I had my Webelos Leaders repeat at least twice during the 1 1/2 year as a Webelos ... aquanaut, outdoorman, and readyman.

clay ... checked into this not too long ago but in G2SS, you should carefully read the Safety Afloat section, particularly item #6 "6. Skill Proficiency All persons participating in activity afloat must be trained and experienced in watercraft handling skills, safety, and emergency procedures. For unit activity on white water, all participants must complete special training by a BSA Aquatics Instructor or qualified whitewater specialist. ... Except for whitewater and powerboat operation as noted above, either a minimum of three hours' training and supervised practice or meeting requirements for "basic handling tests" is required for all float trips or open-water excursions using unpowered craft. For Cub Scouts: Canoeing and rafting for Cub Scouts (including Webelos Scouts) is to be limited to council/district events on flat water ponds or controlled lake areas free of powerboats and sailboats. Prior to recreational canoeing, Cub Scouts are to be instructed in basic handling skills and safety practices." I had to check into it since one of the fathers in my son's Den also had the similar thought. If I remembered it correctly, Webelos are the only Cubs who can do canoeing and only in a council or district event on flat water ponds and everyone has to be trained by the District or by Council on canoeing. http://www.usscouts.org/safety/g2ss.html Also, the liability is too great at Cub Scout age. If I were the leader, I wouldn't take on that liability and I didn't. For Aquanaut, I took my Den to the local pool and worked with them. At our Pool they allowed us to borrow their rescue float, poles, and ropes. Now, the one fun thing that I did to show them that there is a use for knot-tying skills was to show them how to tie an one-handed bowline. I went to the deep and became the drowing victim. They toss me a rope and I quickly tied the bowline and had them pull me to shore. They were amazed and you should have seen how quickly they learned the bowline so that they could be the "drowing victim." By the way, they also learned to use the clove hitch to anchor one end of the rope before they throw. By the way, you will have to have the same Safe Swim trained adult leaders and requiment as presribed in G2SS during the Aquanaut session as well. Good luck. 1Hour(This message has been edited by OneHour)

kwc, that's a great idea! Back to the basics! Let's see if it flies with the PLC. Thanks. 1Hour

EagleWB, I would recommend against it. Having been through one recently, it's not an ideal situation to be in for a group of boyscouts and this is not even cub scouts. The logistic of getting the adults to "coral" all the boys is virtually impossible, not unless you are planning to tie the tubes together. Some will get away and be ahead of the group. Some will lag. Some will be swimming just because they want to! You can't keep a count of all the boys at all the time and it doesn't matter how many BSA lifeguards that you have floating down the river with you, not unless you have one for one ratio. I saw it first hand of how risky it was! For the safety of the boys and for your protection, it's not worth it! Appearantly it was okay with our Council since our event chair turn in the Tour Permit and it was approved. I'm not sure whose plan it was (I think that it's the SM plan) to have this trip. Another observation, it seems that your River is not crowded with "tuber?" on the weekend which is okay, I guess. Where we went, it was the local main source of income and there are about three to four colleges within a 50 miles radius. So what you have is a bunch of drunken college kids who do nothing but smoke, drink, swear, and make lewd/crude comments/jokes all along the river. Something that a group of impressionable young men should not be witnessing. One thing that I am glad that I did was to suggest to the other ASMs that all new scouts wear PFDs, but I regret that my son and I came along and I regret that I did not strongly voice my objection! Thank God that I didn't have to regret of losing one to the river.

It has been three months and to report success would be a lie. Our Pack is dwindling down. Only about 48% showed up for graduation. Committee meeting is down to less than a handful (5 out of original 20). We can chalk it up to baseball season, but I remember that we had for the previous two years well over 65% to 70% attendance (granted that some of them were in baseball uniform with a cub shirt over it). I am worry! I don't want the CM job back, because I am busy trying to turn the troop boat toward Patrol Method and Boy Lead, etc. Any suggestions? Our CC is backing off too! May be this is needed! To reduce the Pack from 94 to 56 is not bad at all. With recruiting in the Fall we'll be back close to 80, which is very manageable, comparing to 120+. May be I am worrying too much for nothing! Thanks. 1Hour

fotoscout ... I wish that our High Adventure committee exists. Our troop is about 4 years old. It has been run by the SM. Most adults are happy to sit back and let it happen. My son, his 12 friends (plus around 15 other webelos), and a whole bunch of excited parents joined this past March. So far, it was disappointing. On top of that, a new CC was elected and he is another story for a late night cracker barrel. So, I am sticking my neck out to see if I can retrained the older boys and at the same time making it fun by pointing out the "neat" stuffs that camping can bring. Thanks. 1Hour

I guess that that my main disappointment lies in the fact that the troop adult leadership did not make any attempt to keep it fresh for the boys. The aim seems to be get the boys through the program as quickly as one could to Eagle(it was SM lead troop ... it's getting better ... I think). Several boys got their Eagles at 12+ to 13! That battle has already been waged in this Forum so I'm not touching that. I guess that I expected more out of the Junior Leaders and much more out of the adult leaders of this troop. Being new to the troop, I guess that I have another view of the troop. See what all of the BSA training has done to me? They make me feel the urge to not leave well enough alone! OGE ... sheepshank is not one of the basics; however, when I teach knots, I like to use it as one of the basic eight that I like for them to know (bowline, two 1/2 hitches, taut-line, square, clove, timber, sheet bend, and sheepshank). Thanks. 1Hour

The obvious answer is "all the time," but ... Just came back from a campout with our troop. I assisted with teaching the new scouts the knots. A Life Scout assisted me. The new boys (ex-Webelos) know their knots! One-handed bowline, two-handed bowline, 2 1/2 hitches, clove hitch, taut-line hitch, square knot, and the sheet bend. So my job was fairly easy, just remind some of them of the more difficult ones. To my surprise my Life Scout did not know (at least didn't remember) most of these knots. A Star scout was in one of my classes. He didn't know the sheetbend nor the sheepshank. I asked him why? He said that he wasn't taught. So I was a little disappointed (that's another story). I found out that most of the older scouts either do not remember any of the knots or wasn't taught the knots! As I notice, they don't know alot of basic skills. So my question is how much basic skills should be retained? Thanks. 1Hour

Thanks. Will look into it. 1Hour

Thanks for the inputs. Actually, what I was looking for is the Patrol Method of camping and/or the tips and tricks of camping(if that makes any sense). For example, upon entering a different patrol campsite, one must asks for permission and receives acknowledgement before entering or the fact that laying down ground cloth for the tent, one should have it at least 3-4" recessed under the tent so that the ground cloth will not act as a channel for the rain and dew to collect underneath one's back. As for tips and trick,s one can use lint from the dryer to help start a fire or egg carton filled with parafin that can be easily cut into small "fire starter chunk," or using Bounce sheets to ward off mosquitoes. Something along the line of what to buy and what not to buy such as one should be running out there and purchase the $600 hiking tent that is solely design for alpine country when you are actually camping in the heat of SE Texas. Something like a wide-mouth, clear, plastic quart bottle with a biner to tie to your belt worths every penny ($6) than a $20 boyscout canteen ... a bottle that allows one to easily clean it or mix coolaid in it or use it as a cooking measuring tool. These are things that were taught to us by a wise longtime camper/hiker/mountaineer at our Outdoor training. I guess that I could sit down and jot down what I learned ... but I want to see if there is not already a collection out there. These are the types of things that make the boys go ... "wow, did not know that! ... or sweet! I'm starting a fire with lint!" I whole heartedly agree that the Handbook is second to none in terms of information, but I'm looking for the little nuances of camping, the tips and tricks of camping, the things that bring the "thrifty" word out of camping! Thanks, 1Hour

Can anyone point me to a site, a document, or anything that can be used as a good BSA outdoor training guide for the new scouts? campground selection, campsite protocol, etc. I can put together a guide from the Handbook, OLST, BALOO, and OWL training that I have been to. I just didn't want to reinvent the wheel. Thanks. 1Hour

Eagle74 has most of the suggested items. I would add a couple of items that you should have on hand: local Cub Scout Pack's calendar (or at the very least their Webelos cross over dates) and any Band/Orchestra, sports, etc. calendar. The second items are needed only if you have a very small troop and you want to include everyone's interests. I would shy away from dates such as baseball/football opening date, playoffs, band/orchestra competition, etc. As for the Cub Scout Pack, getting the webelos cross-over campout and attending the cross-over are important recruiting events. Helping out with Pinewood Derby or Blue&Gold or etc. are important relationship building events between Troop and Pack. Also, at the planning meeting, if you have access to the Internet, that would be great. It serves to look up places, events, costs, availability, calendars, etc. If not you would have to do a lot of the upfront leg works to come up with ideas. Important thing ... don't let the adults do the planning for you! You (PLC) do the planning. Have an adult leader be a facilitator (a person who would be able to keep the flow of the meeting moving and keeps everyone involved and as Eagle74 pointed out to answer question and coach ... if done correctly). You can be the facilitator; however, since you are the SPL, you run the meeting. If you don't have a good facilitator, the meeting will bog down to an item or two. Good luck

If a troop or crew or what have you earns so much money (say in the 6 or 7 figures range), then why not set up scholarship foundation for Eagle Scouts in that troop or for scholastically achieving scouts or for needy scouts? In our District, our Urban scouts don't even have enough money to purchase uniforms! There are so much that can be done for BSA, locally and nationally. Money seems to be the only problem. So I don't see a problem or a downside! Heck if your crew or troop or anyone who needs help with spending your excessive fund, I'm fairly sure that there are scouters on this forum will be more than gladly give you a name or two to contact. "Excessive funds are dangerous. They are a temptation for abuse and all too often the emphasis on maintaining a big balance becomes more important than spending money on program and resources." Those type of people shouldn't be in scouting!

Joni, wow, you can write a resignation letter! Most resignation ends in a face-to-face and an "I quit!" or the person simply drops off the face of the neighborhood! Good luck in the new troop. 1Hour

scrapperlisa, I would have to take exception to your observation. I'm a male den leader and I would have to say that my Den is having a blast (my 2nd son's den that is). I took over my older son's Den from a wonderful lady who was trying so hard to get the Den organized (bless her heart) and we had probably the most fun in our Pack of 14 Dens! Yes ... we sang, we did arts & crafts, we sang more, we tells jokes, we sang some more, we played, we camped (about 10 times from Wolf to graduation), etc. I would agree with you with regards to gender (in terms of a Den with a male den leader tends to do alot more outdoor stuffs (such as camping, hiking, etc.)). One of our Dens that happens to have another wonderful female leader has never camped once and they are now 1st year Webelos. On the flip side, we have another Den that is lead by a female leader and they attended all of the Pack's campouts and then some! The difference that I notice is that the Dens that have fun and stayed strong are the ones that are lead by TRAINED leaders! Every boy deserved a well-trained leader! By the way, my take is that you should fully participate with your son from Tiger and on; however, as each year goes by, you let go of the rope a little more. By the time that he is in boy scout, he will be on his own and you still be there but only in a supporting role! I was so proud of my oldest when he told me to stay home so that he can go to his first boyscout campout alone! Now all that I have to do is to convince my wife of that! Cheers, OneHour

Welcome to the pain, the trial-and-tribulation, the frustration, the joy, the happiness, and the satisfaction of being a Scouter. Yes ... the later three characteristics do exist and they are the reasons why there still so many Scouters selfishlessly give up their time for the ideals. The answer ... the Committee! You should seek to resolve the issue with the Committee. The Committee ensures the Pack needs are addressed. The Cubmaster is king in his Program world, but he is under the jurisdiction of the Committee. The Committee set who's, when's, where's, how's, and what's of the Pack. If the Committee is broken, then follow up the food chain. Seek advice with your District Commissioner. Okinawa, hmmm., you might have limited choice there. Charter Organization Representative is another good source. He/she has the vested interest as well. Don't give up on scouting, because scouting won't give up on you and your son! As I have told my Director, I rather manage paid employees than volunteers, but I learned so much by leading a group of volunteers. Good luck. By way, like you and everyone else on this forum, I am trying my best to erase that word "sucker" off my forehead! (This message has been edited by OneHour)