OneHour

As Semper pointed out, the standards that most and all troops should follow are the Scout Oath and Scout Laws. Some troops have their own set in addtion, including ours (namely dealing the swearing, fighting, etc.). Here is my question, if it isn't envolved safety, health, YPT, or G2SS, why is the ASM got bent out of shape? Shouldn't the ASM bring the issue to the SPL and let him and his staff deal with it? If they couldn't, that's when the adult leaders step in. Also, as you pointed it out, wasn't there a set expectation before the campout? For example, one of our campout was a backpack trip to a rock in West Texas. At the end of the planning session, we (the adult leaders) set out the expectation that all horsing around will not be tolerated on the rock. We explained the reason. We noted that the consequence will be that their parents will be called to come and pick them up no exceptions. After 10 hours trip, they will not be happy. Every boy understood. What was the incident if I may ask? This could shed some light.(This message has been edited by OneHour)

In our Pack, we have standing a rule that the Pack will pay for the first belt loop. If the cub earn the same belt loop, then it's out of the parent's pocket. The cubbies can earn it as many times as their parents will want to pay for the belt loops. We changed it slightly this year with the new webelos changes. The rule still applies for the cubbies, but webelos we will pick up the belt loop for the first time in webelos years. Subsequence earning of the same belt loop during webelos year, then the Pack will not cover. 1Hour

Unless it is specifically stated, then I don't see why not. For example, usually if a beltloop is a requirement for a Webelos pin, the handbook will state specifically such as " While you are a Webelos Scout, earn the Academics belt loop for ..." or one of the Arrow of Light requirements: "With your Webelos den, visit at least * one Boy Scout troop meeting, * one Boy Scout-oriented outdoor activity. (If you have already done this when you earned your Outdoorsman activity badge, you may not use it to fulfill requirements for your Arrow of Light Award requirements.)" The Leave No Trace requirement is : Participate in a Leave No Trace-related service project. The World Conservation Award requirement is: participation in a Den or Pack conservation project. There is no stipulation that they can't be the same conservation project. Of course, it is always better to have the boys exposed to as many conservation services/projects as possible. After all we pride in ourselves as a service-oriented organization. 1Hour

Tents comfortably sleep "N-1" where N = advertised number of sleepers. When it comes to hard ground, there is no such thing as comfortable. There is only different degrees of tolerable.

Murphy's Laws take precedence over any theoretical and practical laws, so back to square one, "Be Prepared!"

Looking at our Pack, I would say that our Pack is very successful but could be a lot more improvement to be great. Here are our stats for the last 4 years: Average size: ~112 boys in 12 dens Average retention rate at recharter: ~82% Average x-over to boy scout: ~88% Average recruiting class in the fall: ~40 boys Average number of incoming Tigers: ~26 boys "First, what are the top three traits of Great Packs? Packs that are not just successful, but outstanding in delivering the promise." 1) A very active Pack program with lots of fun thing for the boys to do. All well planned out and staffed with volunteers. I posted some of the things that we do in our pack on another thread. Ex: Yesterday, we held our bike rodeo. We had 10 courses. Each Den sponsored a course. We had the sheriff dept out there, EMS, State Farms (who took the kids pictures and printed their 'driver license' after they finished all the courses), safety inspection, snow cones, safety talks, etc. We created the rodeo around the theme of the Incredibles. We had about 50 scouts and another 10-15 siblings. Everyone had a blast! 2) A fun loving, nutty, kid-like cubmaster and a strong committee who can pull together many volunteers. When an adult acts silly and fun, the kids will as well, but this cubmaster needs to care as well. He/she needs to make sure that not only the Pack meetings run well, but the dens as well. This job falls on the CC as well; as a matter of fact, our CM and CC constant stay in contact with the den leaders. 3) Very involved Den leaders who produce fun, active den programs. I noticed that even our den leaders need a lot of support. The dens that failed were dens that did not have any parental helps. 3.5) Trained adults. "Second, what are some paths for average or new or struggling packs to turn into Great Packs? What are the first steps?" 1) Find a fun-loving cubmaster who is willing to joke with the kids, sings, laughs, and puts together a "great show." Find one or two assistant cubmaster who are willing to do the same! Believe it or not but the boys do know the difference between a person who enjoys being a cubmaster and one who is put in the position! 2) Find a strong committe chair who can pull together volunteers. He/she has to be a good salesman or saleswoman while being very organized. This person and the committee need to take care the logistics of running the pack. 3) Get all of these people trained. 4)Assemble a group parents who share the same ideals, scouting, fun, and safety. Put together the fun program that the boys can enjoy. Words of mouth worth their weight in gold. Don't do what you do every year, especially the "we have always done it that way" activities. Put together the entire year. This is your selling points, then deliver! Under promise and over deliver, cliche'ish but very true. 5) Put together a great recruiting effort. 6) It will take a lot of patience. It does take 1 hour a week ... 1 hour per boy per week! As I mentioned above, I consider our pack fairly successful, but we can learn more and do more to be a great pack for our boys! By the way, we, too, go through some trials and tribulations of the world of volunteers. 1Hour(This message has been edited by OneHour)

Stoton, We used Geocities before. The worst part of this free service is the advertisement pops-up. It bugs the heck out of me! If it doesn't bother you and your users then it is the way to go ... I guess. 1Hour

Scouter Terry, Do you happen to know the status of troops.scouter.com? Does anyone know whom I can contact with? Our troop uses this web services as our main line of communications (other than Mother Bell). Do I need to search for another web services? Thanks, 1Hour

I apologize for bragging. It was not meant as such. I just want to illustrate what everyone pointed out. If you want to keep Tigers or any other cubs ... the program will have to be the attractive point of the Pack. Den activities are the other point. As for den activities, a trained den leader with creative parents will bring the fun to the boys. Again, that's program! The more trained and knowledgable parents, the more help you will get. The final point is that it will require everyone to roll up his/her sleeves in your Pack/Den to pull together the pack/den. I find this to be true: if you (the adult) enjoy and have fun, so will the kids. Just act silly and be a kid ... the magic formula! Now, I know why my wife keeps telling me to grow up! 1Hour(This message has been edited by OneHour)

Does anyone know what happened to troops.scouter.com? It has been down for the last 2 days. Thanks, 1Hour

The job of running the Pack is not a job for one man. It sounds as if the whole Pack is to blame. How long has the cubmaster been at the helm? Was he the cause of the Pack's demise or desperate state? If so why (too controlling? not practicing what he learned? no help? too demanding? burn out?)? How did he get to be the CM? Where is your CC? Where is the committee? Where are the other den leaders? Is he trained? Are there anyone in your pack trained? If not ... this is your first step. If you don't know how it suppose to be run, then how could you run it? You shouldn't have to learn from books and Internet. Rely on your District for training. Attend round table. To ask him to leave will depend on whether or this will correct the situations in your Pack. From your description, I don't think so. I would ask DE or your unit Commissioner to get with the CM to see if you all can revive the pack. That's their job. I would also get all the parents together to talk about the future of the pack and how to go forward, including get committment for helps and fill those emptied positions. If it doesn't work, then punt as Its Me suggested. Good luck, 1Hour ps: your COR can ask the CM to step down.

In our Pack, past September we gathered about 28 tigers in three full dens. To date we retained about 70% of those tigers. We followed up with these tigers (as we do every year). We learned that the Tigers who quit were the ones that 1) have parents do not have the time committment to be a tiger partner every week or every other week! 2) elected to play t-ball instead, 3) parent just didn't like the way the den was run ... too disorganized, loud, etc. or in sum ... wasn't what they expected. Of the 20 boys who rechartered (and the ones who left), they all love to attend our Pack meetings and campouts. Here are some of our activities at Pack meetings: - Dens magic show - Jake the Snakeman (he brought is snakes in for the kids to see) - Sheriff Dept. K-9 units - Mad Science (overpriced but worth every penny) - Blue and Gold (slide shows of our past activities and just party) - Pinewood Derby (always a favorite) ... and the fun goes on. Even I look forward to the the Pack meeting! Pack activities during the year and summer such as: - pool party - game night at the baseball stadium - Day Camp - sleepover at NASA - sleepover on the Battleship of Texas - sleepover at the Zoo - sleepvoer on the Lexington - sleepover at the aquarium - hikes - 2 campouts a year - Waterblast (where the whole pack got their waterguns and drenched each other ... we also had the local fire engine there ... they blasted the kids with their waterhose ... in the air so that it rains down on the kids of course!) - Bike rally/rodeo (themed ... ie. this year is The "Incredibles" Bike Rally. Interested ... PM and I'll send you our courses) and so on ... our year is packed. ... so as you can see ... it always boils down to program, program, and did I mention program? Of course, you have to have an army of parents to help. We have well over 30 folks in the pack to resort to. By the way, we try to change the program every year to avoid ... "we have done that already!" We have (this year) 96 boys. That's down from 132 three years ago! 1Hour(This message has been edited by OneHour)

"Four years out we knew we were winning...but most of the 'old guard' was gone...it was no longer fun or they had 'burned out'" Anarchist is right. It won't be an easy winover nor will it be an easy pill to swallow for the old guards and "old boys." We are still getting the "it is no longer fun for us" line from the boys who were part of the adult run show. Some of these boys no longer show up. We care and we do ask, but if they don't want to come back ... there is nothing that we can do. It may sound mean, but these boys are bad influence on the newer crop of boys. They create "clicks." They encourage the more popular younger guys to join. They do not want to do anything at troop meeting. Their version of boys run is we do as we please and you can't say squat! These are some of the drawbacks that you will experience. Some of the parents (who were ASMs or Committee members) complained about the way that the troop has become so disorganized. They complained about no fun. They wanted to go back the way it was (eventhough activities were breaking G2SS guidelines!). We (the current scoutmasters) stayed steadfast. We will implement our changes eventhough it is slow and painful. We see ourselves as a rebirth of a new troop. Again, anarchist is correct ... it will take continuous caring and nuturing to get it done. Fortunately, I'm in it for the long haul. I have 3 sons. My oldest is a Life scout. My second one is a Web 1. My youngest is 5. Another fortunate thing is that each wave of new scouts into our troop from the pack that we came out of has a great set of parents that share the same scouting view. Maybe my sublimal messages during pack meeting and pack events sinked in. Now if anyone has any idea on how we could speed up the process of conversion, I would love to hear as well. 1Hour

I can share CNYScouter's point-of-view. Our troop is the same; however, all 6 of our scoutmasters are trained. We are trying to implement the patrol method and boy run ideals, but they have not sticked, yet. The older boys in our troop do not like the patrol method, because they are so used to the adult-run method that were run before. If you check some of my previous postings, you will sense my frustration as CNYScouter. My only suggestion to CNYScouter is as pointed above, get all of the adults to training and buys-in in the patrol method and the boy-run ideals. Then introduce it to the boys. It will take time. We are in our 2nd year and we are not giving up. The boys are starting to adapt to the fact that they need to run the troop. Next step for us, to fortify the patrol environment and the patrol method. My guess is that our troop has another year yet to get to the ideals, but we're not giving up. 1Hour ps: great to see your post again, Bob!

This sounds very close and dear to my heart. When my oldest was shopping for a troop, one man was out to recruit boys for his new troop (a troop that he wants to be a scoutmaster). He bad mouthed the two troops in existent and pit one against another. He happened to be a CC for one of the troops. The two scoutmasters happened to be two friends who came from the same Pack as we did. I confronted each scoutmaster with the allegations and both told me the facts. As Eamonn pointed out, the cream always rises to the top! My take is that you should confront the DE/Scoutmaster of the allegation or at least find out the source of the allegation and put it to rest. I would and have done it. There is no room for this type of action in scouting. If his troop is that good then let their actions speak for themselves. He should be reminded that the objective is to keep the boys in scouting, be it one troop or another or both. I would remind your friend and his webelos (and his friends) is that for some reasons that they do not find a fit in this troop, there are three other troops that they can join. There are (now) three troops in our immediate area. This past couple of months, whenever we invite a webelos den from the two neighborhood Packs, our boys would work with the webelos. I, on the other hand, entertain the parents. I don't sell our troop. I sell the program, scouting program that is. I talk about the surrounding troops and what their specialties are, ie. canoeing, backpacking, hiking, high adventure, explorer, etc. I sell them the importance of scouting and explain to them what the program is and how our troop's program is run and its specialties. I remind them of the fact that it's up to the individual boy and his family to decide which troop that they would like to participate. If I find that the boy is interested in a particular activity, I would recommend the troop for them to seek out. Two years ago, we got 25 new Webelos and our brother troop got 2. Last year, we got 8 and they got 16. This year is still remain to be seen, but we always talk great about each other and the program. I guess that the competitiveness in some people does make them forget about the Scouting aims, promise, and law! Good Luck, 1Hour

In the words of kids nowaday, engingeering is sweeeeeeeet, especially electrical! As I have always told my boys (@ home and in the troop), I'm proud to be a geek, 'cause you can't spell "geek" without a double ee's (EE)! 1Hour(This message has been edited by OneHour)

Cubiemom, congratulations. It sounds as if you and your son have found the right Pack that will last until boy scout. Remember one thing, the same is applicable in boy scout. If one troop does not work out, another is right around the corner. Cheers, 1Hour

Hmmm ... I can see if 7 out of the 8 boys finished and the last boy has 1 or 2 requirement to get through, then waiting a month to present the badges so that all the boys could feel as a team. That's where the instant recognition beads come in. The cubmaster should recognize these boys and tells the Pack of the situation by saying something along the line that "these boys have earned their rank; however, they elected to wait for their friend ... ." Now if your son is an inspired scout and finishes his requirement as he is capable of, then he should be awarded the rank before the others. Your son should wear his wolf badge with pride. This will (always) inspire the others in his den to finish. "Do Your Best" means that each boy works at his own pace and the best of his ability. It does not mean that a boy should be penalize when he did his best! I can't remember exactly where it is written (not at work anyway). It is being taught at every leader training that I have been to and I pass that ideology on to others as I hold my classes. Every chance, recognize the boy(s) for his (their) accomplishment! That's how one keeps the boys motivated to stay in scouting. Here is an example of "written" format of the ideal (from Pacific Skyline Council): http://www.pacsky.org/advancements/cub-advancements.html "Here are some tips on the mechanics of advancement and some frequently asked questions. We find boys are highly motivated by the Recognition Program provided through Cub Scouts. Each Cub Scout should be helped by his parents and leaders to earn the rank for his age. The adult's standard for completion of any requirement should be based on the Cub Scout motto "Do Your Best". That's the Scout's best, not the adult's best! Please remember that no unit or individual has the authority to add to or subtract from advancement requirements. Badges should be awarded promptly when earned, in a public recognition ceremony and preferably in front of the entire Pack. A boy can continue to work toward a rank over the summer if it wasn't earned during the school year. If he hasn't advanced by the time the next school year starts, he must begin working on the next age level's rank." 1Hour(This message has been edited by OneHour)

Words of warning about Dads vs the world tug-o-war: Make sure that you have at least 2+" (dia.) new rope. We held a dads vs kids two years ago with a brand new 1" climbing rope. The rope snapped and kids went flying and dads went on top of one another. Thank goodness that the rope the whip anyone in the face (or otherwise) or anyone got hurt badly! We got 2-3 scrapes and bruises and one sprained ankle. When you have two opposing forces that refuse to give in, something else has to! I cringe everytime I remember that event! "Shell hunt along beach (with lifeguards) no doubt this will turn into a swim party." Having lifeguards is only one of the Safe Swim Defense. Don't forget to get trained (if you or someone in your pack have not done it) in Safe Swim Defense. It is a must, especially, when it comes to cub scouting! Now back to Pack Campout: - relays are great (about 1 hour long) - hike (so that wolves and bears can get their hiking requirement out of the way) (about 30 minutes long ... remember you are having a bunch city dwellers who probably not wearing the proper hiking shoes or boots ... probably wearing flip flops!) - fishing contest is good (1 hour) - we used to have a pack campout in Sept that we had the kids bring their waterguns and we would have a water blast between the dens, betweent the kids and the cubmaster, etc. This would be great with the fort, if it is allowed. - another campout, we had each den to provide activity for 1 belt loop or requirement at their campsite, ultimate, volleyball, badminton, etc. That worked out quite well (2 hours) - Free time is very important (2-3 hours) where the family or den can do as they planned. - Campfire (1 to 1 1/2 hours): - flag retirement ceremony (a lot of people have never seen one) - skits - songs - jokes - cheers - The rest of the time is reserved for cooking, cleaning, and just lounging around. A well planned campout always gets them to come back for more, especially a fun campfire. So get your goofiest adults to be goofy! When the adults are having fun, the kids will naturally join in. I, on the hand, refuse to be Goofy. I'd rather be Donald, instead! 1Hour(This message has been edited by OneHour)

We usually have ours lasted 2 hours, from 7:00 pm to 9:00 pm on a Friday. This included ceremony (namely rank advancement), skit, awards and eating. It got really long when you have 10 dens parading through the rank advancement. This year we are knocking off the rank advancement portion, because the pack dwindles down to 40% after B&G. I guess that everyone thinks that once the boy got his rank, they don't need to attend the pack meeting any more. This year, we will have just plain fun! We will eat, show a slide show of past events, award pinewood derby winners, recognize several of our parents, and then recognize our 2nd year Webelos! Their AoL is on a separate night. We figure 1 1/2 hours. By the way, we have about 100 boys in our pack. One other thing, our Pack feels that the Arrow of Light is very important for our 2nd year to rush through a Blue & Gold or a pack meeting. We elected, about 8 years ago, to hold it as a separate event. We'd invite the local Order of the Arrow chapter to perform the ceremony. At the B&Gk, we recognize the 2nd Webelos for their achievement such as Super Achiever badge, Religious Award, etc. The cross-over night is celebrated by friends and family with refreshment. We also invite the troop(s) that will receive our Webelos. So far, every one of the AoL has been memorable. 1Hour(This message has been edited by OneHour)

Part of our Pack's annual dues cover enough for rank advancement and belt loops; however, we made it clear that the Pack will pick up only the belt loop once only. If the cub earns the same belt loop more than once, then it is up to his parent to pay for his belt loops. 1Hour

My sons took a break from scouting and cubscouting for about 2 1/2 months during the summer because they both were in the swim team that happened to hold swim meets on the evenings that the troop and den met. During that time, both of the boys still attended the various troop and pack functions (summer camp, day camp, etc) so that they won't be "out of it." I have one boy in my den that could not attend any of the Pack's meeting due to a conflict with his CE (Christian Education) class. I told the parents that it's okay, because part of scouting is being reverent; however, I asked his parents to take him to the Den meetings and other Pack's activities so that he won't lose touch with scouting. This has been the case for this one boy for the last 3 years! We are now 1st year Webelos and he still loves cub scouting! So my advice is to stay in touch with his den leader and get him to okay that your son can complete the Webelos requirements that the den completes on his own (and on his own time). Your son still has to show the den leaders his accomplishments to get them signed off by the den leaders. Remember, cub scout motto is "Do Your Best!" Education is first before extracurricular activities such as scouting. Good luck 1Hour (This message has been edited by OneHour)

For centerpieces, why not have those plastic animals line up in the center of the tables ... bobcats (cats/leopards are close), wolves, bears, lions (old webelos), and some webelos patch cutouts. How about center pieces that have the whole Disney's Jungle B1ook characters (Baloo, Mowgle, Bagheera, etc.) that are painted, drawn, or colored by the boys? Blue and gold (yellow) table spread with blue and gold napkins, plates, cups and platicwares. 1Hour

Belinda, Instead of using the coping saw or the likes, find out in your pack the person who has a band saw and ask him to assist. It takes less than 1 minute with a band saw (the thin saw that goes up and down just in case you don't know what it is). There has to be father who is a woodwork expert in the Pack. 10 out of 10 times, if asked, the person will be more than willing to assist! Let him do the cutting. We made a mistake this past pinewood derby workshop. We had a band saw at the workshop. We usually cut the car, but one father insisted that he could do it by himself. Well after 5 minutes later and one bleeding, deeply gashed thumb, we vowed to ourselves that only we do the cutting at the workshop. Outside of that ... anyone can go at it his finger at his own home! Coping saw will work, but it will be slow and you will need a good clamp. Regular saw will be hard. IMPORTANT: don't forget to knock in your wheel axels when the block of wood is whole and then remove them with a pair of plyers. This way, once you cut the wood and sand it and paint it, all that you would do is to slide the wheel and its axel into the slot ... and glue them. Again ... don't forget 1)the car has to be at least 4oz, but 5oz is the best, 2) make sure that the car runs straight, and finally 3) lube the wheels. Have fun and good luck

Vicki, We do have the buys-in from the Treasurer and the Committee. Our Treasurer just doesn't want to do the accounting to that level of tedious boredom. She is will to support someone taking over that portion while she takes care of the check and balance of the troop's piggy. So, I have to come up with the process to make sure that the credits flow correctly! Great ... having an engineer doing an accountant's work, I'm sure that it will be rough, but my cubscout motto still lives in me ... I'm gonna "do my best!" 1Hour