Once_Eagle-Always_Eagle

>> Cub scout Family camping rules by taking the Webelos den camping with out an adult for every scout. This is getting stranger with every post! They really are off the ranch here. Family camping and Webelo den camping are two different events. Family camping indeed requires a 1:1 ratio (and even then the rule is not firm- e.g. a father with twins). On the other side, Webelo den camping is much more like traditional troop camping and requires 2 deep leadership. At least, this is what I teach the last two times I taught BALOO. If the rules are different, someone better correct me quick (and cite the reference)!

I won't speak for anyone but myself... this is not for my unit, my chartered org, or the BSA.. but if you look at the danger to the boys (homosexual vs pedophile), you're only capturing a portion of the problem. I don't believe homosexuals pose danger to the immediate safety of my son. Instead, I'd frame the problem is defining the standard you use to conclude homosexuality is contrary to the idea of a scout remaining morally straight. And if you have a leader that is openly against that principle, then I argue there are other people that would be better role models- and should be. Lest you think I am hypocritical, let me also make a lot of people angry and say that I apply this standard across the board. For an extreme example, I believe that scout leaders that are morbidly obese also violates the principle of a scout remaining physically fit and I don't think they should be leaders either... but that is a topic worthy of yet another thread.

My unit may be more conservative, but speaking for my pack, i wouldn't limit it to just camping either. I suspect that if I did the 'secret ballot' test asking 'Would you keep your boy in the den/pack' if one of his direct contact leaders were openly gay? It wouldn't even be CLOSE!

Excellent point on camping at council approved destinations. However, I suspect council would be hard pressed to justify why a pack destination is not accepted if: 1) The destination is accepted and used by scouts in other districts/councils; and 2) The destination meets the same acceptance criteria used to measure allowed destinations within council boundaries.

The BSA does not refuse any boy participation in scouts because the guardians are openly gay. They just prohibit openly gay individuals from serving in leadership positions. As a former Eagle scout, I personally embrace the ideal of holding a moral high ground, despite what society embraces. It doesn't mean that I hate gay people (because I don't). They are free to embrace whatever they want to and we'll just agree to disagree on whether or not their behavior is 'sin' (oh no, I used the forbidden S word.) It *does* mean that I (and for time being the BSA) believes their sexual preference is not in the best interest of the boys. If I go really radical on you... You are in a tricky spot with your chartered org but if they can't respect the BSA policy, maybe they shouldn't sponsor the pack/troop. I predict that if the BSA embraces a liberal agenda like you are proposing, a group of people would express their opposition, if by nothing else starting a new org that embraces the traditional values. It has already happened to the girl scouts (see http://www.frontiergirls.com/alternativetogirlscouts.html)

My sympathies sir! I spun your comment to a new thread cuz i don't think they can do that!

Spun off from another thread... >> Had my meeting with the district committee last night....... >> I am not allowed to take the Pack out of District or out of council >> to events any more. WUH? Can they do that? I suspect not. You are an entity under your chartered org and as such you are entitled to go wherever your chartered org sees fit. Sounds to me like district/council is floundering and rather than fix a failing program, they want to mandate continued attendance. I would be angry beyond speech. Good luck with this!

Jersey: It was more than being a pot stirrer. That was what I thought at the time to be a more light-hearted way to introduce the topic than to say "Hey guys, I don't agree with the claims being made by World Net News Daily but I respect and solicit the opinions of other people in the scouting community especially on this forum, plus as scouters committed to increasing the diversity of those participating in scouting, I believe everyone should understand the claims being made about the BSA so that you are prepared to answer intelligently if and when someone in the community or around the water cooler inevitably brings the topic up." Try not to be so rude next time please- especially if you want to publicly try to embarrass me.

A scout is HELPFUL, FRIENDLY, COURTEOUS, KIND I hate to choose sides but I will. ;-) Basement: your replies are generally wise, well thought out and add value. I like reading your regular posts, don't stop. :-) But your post to Cricket was more hard and critical than helpful, friendly, courteous, or kind. Cricket professed to be a newbie. I join Moose in encouraging Cricket. If he can follow a bureaucratic JTE outline to hit Gold while he learns the ropes, I predict it is the boys that benefit in the end, and *THAT* I strongly applaud. Similarly, I don't see Cricket playing the victim card. Someone that really embraces the victim mentality would have let the pack fold and just gone to another unit, or left scouting altogether and blamed the previous leaders. Cricket has tried to make things better for their son and the other boys in the pack. (This message has been edited by once_eagle-always_eagle)

This came to me from a friend. I wanted to be a pot stirrer and put this out for comments in the scouting community: http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=352145

I have been trolling through other posts looking for other suggestions and wanted to repost a suggestion from another thread back to this to: 1) Keep all the suggestions in one place 2) Revive this thread into the active topics. I need more content still. :-) Oh, and the suggestion I liked so much: Early on, teach the boys to obey the "signs up" signal. Thanks to Basement Dweller.(This message has been edited by once_eagle-always_eagle)

It would probably help if I say my target audience is cub scout leaders rather than boy scout leaders. I don't want to discourage advice from boy scout leaders because it could apply to cub scout leaders also. Regardless, this thread is doing well. Keep the good advice coming. Thanks guys!

I asked this in a previous thread called "What do you know now that you wish you knew earlier" but it appears that thread has been corrupted. Second, it didn't evoke the response I had hoped for so I wanted to try again with the question asked differently... Based on your own experience, if you were giving advice to a brand new leader what advice would you give them?

ha! i love the premise! http://www.vote4noneoftheabove.com

"Feedback is a gift" Seriously, your comments are well received. Send my a private post with more details and I'll work to improve it. Since I developed it, I understand it without documentation and I know what I meant to do. However, if something is not intuitive, I want to fix that. The goal of the site was not to create double work, but to create less work. I don't want my treasurer to create reports and mail them out to families. I want her to just track the records and tell families to check it themselves. The ability to export records is duly noted and I will work to add that. Thanks again for the feedback!

All but 3 counties counties in Texas are currently under a burn ban. I've talked to the county fire marshall and the ranger at the scout camp we are heading to, and they both confirmed that all open fires and even charcoal cooking is currently prohibited- limiting us to cooking on gas stoves only. My question to the collective group is what are your favorite recipes that you would serve cold *or* would feed an entire patrol cooked solely on gas stoves? Thanks in advance

Tampa: Tell me more. Where do you get them? What is the cost? How do you use them in conjuntion with your current filtering system? Does anyone else have experience with them? I just purchased this today: http://www.rei.com/product/709006/katadyn-carbon-cartridge My plan is to filter the water with this carbon filter to make it pretty then use the steripen to make it safe but I'm interested details of teh charcoal bags too.

Carrying water for the duration of a weekend trip is certainly possible- even for backpacking but skirts the issue of how to have a portable system to quickly deliver clear tasteless water. Getting water from a strip pit is a good example of the challenge I want to be able to overcome because if I can deal with strip pit water, I believe I can deal with anything else. I've tried bandanas and even coffee filters and they get out the chunky... but they still don't turn muddy water clear. And while I like the potential of steripen, I still have to deal with the muddy water issue. I'm inclined to agree with Beavah and Basement and just ditch the filters for planning trips around water availability. It just seems like scientific advances should be more liberating so I wanted to ask others that get out more. It sounds like i just want something that doesn't exist yet. :-(

I really don't want to mess with boiling water other than as a last resort- particularly as a backpacking option. I want something that I can use to refill water bottles as we cross streams or pass ponds. I don't want to stop, get out the stove, fire it up, boil the water, let it cool off (water and stove), pack it up, and then start hiking again. I also don't want to deal with chemical after tastes. Again, my goal is to get municipal quality water as fast and reliably as possible. Also, as future replies come in, if you are discussing how you filter, please include details on how do you handle things like silt, cloudiness, viruses, taste, agricultural chemical run-off, etc.

Wow... looking at the other replies, you're going to get sticker shock to read my post. Our pack charges $95 for the first year and $80/year to renew. For that fee, the boys receive $15 Annual BSA registration $12 boys life (we are a 100% Boy's Life Unit) $45 dues (5/month dues for 9 months) $10 pack t-shirt (given first year only) $8 book (for their current rank, and then they get a second when they promote up at the end of the school year) $5 neckerchief/neckslide presented at end of year pack meeting when boy promotes to next level With this, we tell families that everything the boy needs to advance is paid for along with pack activities (pinewood derby, blue & gold, field trips to ball games like Harlem Globetrotters, etc.). We hold at lest one extra pack event every month and often two. To give some final preparatory background: We maintain a policy of giving as much fundraising profit as possible to the boys. The boys keep half of the popcorn profit, the pack takes half. For scout cards, the boys keep all of the profit and the pack keeps nothing. We are in our 4th year since inception. The first year, we tried to split money with the boys, but our popcorn colonel became disgruntled and left town, literally, and took the $600 of pack profit with them. That was a HARD year financially and we almost folded. The second year, we kept everything the boys made through fundraising and told them everything was paid for. Well, we had some parents that figured they didn't have to do ANYTHING and they could get EVERYTHING. :-( This small handful of parents drained our account severely limiting what we could do. Year number three, we came back to the splitting profits idea, but this time with the knowledge of lessons learned from year one. We are currently in the best financial position we have ever been in as a pack. Families now have 3 choices: 1) Mom and Dad can simply reach in their pocket and pay. We live in a part of the country that there are many families that choose this course because money is easier to come by than time to take their kid fundraising. Not my preference, but it accommodates the families. 2) Families that want to make scouting affordable but not pay the $80 renewal fee (and simultaneously teach their sons that things in life won't always come as handouts) are given ample opportunity to raise funds. 3) Families that want initial financial assistance are able to receive it (due to the success of our other policies) with strings attached. Basically, if a family gets financial assistance, I expect a model scout family. We expect the boy to earn rank. We expect the boy at pack and den events- skipping is no longer an option. We expect the parents involved and participating- even if not as den leaders, maybe as pack photographers, scribes, etc. After all, they should be there with their son anyway. We expect the boy actively participating in fund raising- not that he should raise the most in the pack, but a demonstrated effort that he supports the pack. (e.g. The cub scout helps the pack go, the pack helps the cub scout grow.) We have discovered that in setting this level of expectations, most families only need financial assistance one year, and they are successful enough they are able to be self-sustaining through option 2 by their second year. Obviously there are exceptions (single parents, health issues, etc.) and those are taken into account. At the end of the day, we say that we will never loose a boy due to finances. While finances might appear to be a part of the reason, it is because the family chose not to invest themselves in the scouting program, not because of money. (p.s. - the secret to making the individual accounting work for the boys was in one of my woodbadge ticket items. We keep track of everyone's balances at http://www.scoutaccounts.com The site lets the treasurer, cubmaster, and selected committee members see all balances, and it lets parents see their individual balances as well. There is no money in the system, it is just an online ledger but has served our needs well.)

>> It's up to you whether JTE is a goal, irrelevent, or an eyesore. Well stated!

Well, this is my second time to try and type this but my browser crashed last night after I typed the novel describing my frustration trying to find a good water filtering solution. My message today will be shorter than last night. I can summarize my dilemma like this- I have a problem/concern with every single water filtering solution on the market.... but here are the nitty gritty details. Most of my trips will be around Texas, Arkansas, Oklahoma, New Mexico, etc- so silty cloudy water is a bigger issue for me than for someone in Utah, Wyoming or Colorado. My primary use will be for family backpacking or personal use- although I would love to retain the ability to provide water for an entire patrol. I own the Steripen Classic but am thinking of returning it. I bought it before reading the reviews and it appears that a lot of people have issues with the reliability of the device- quite simply a lot of reviewers would classify it as fickle. The Steripen also does nothing for silty, cloudy water, water taste/smell, or agricultural/organic chemicals. Battery consumption also appears to be an issue for many people. On the plus side, the Steripen has the benefit of dealing with giardia, cryptosporidia fast (90 seconds for 1 liter) but ALSO handling viruses- which many filters don't. The steripen classic is on sale at REI right now for $49- so if I could just add a katadyn carbon filter for $15 to deal with the silt, murkiness, agricultural chemicals and the likes- this actually could be a very cost effective light weight filtering solution that delivers near municipal quality water. As another idea, I love the idea of the low-tech reliable solution of the gravity filters (e.g. Platypus Gravity Works). It appears to be light weight and reliable for treating giardia, cryptosporidia, etc.) However, it appears that these solutions still leave viruses, heavy metals, agricultural/organic chemicals, and taste. All but the viruses could be addressed by adding the same katadyn carbon filter.Of all the choices, this is the way I am leaning. However, this is twice the cost of the steripen, and I already own the steripen. :-) My motivation to switch is reliability and quantity of water that can be treated. Pump filters (like the MSR Sweetwater or MSR Miniworks) deal with everything but the viruses- and this may be a viable choice too. However, there appears to be a lot of field maintenance required on these due to clogging. They are the heaviest of the filtering choices and moving parts seem like a they would be a failure point- although I repeat, the reviews on the Steripen aren't stellar either. So here is my question- is there value in keeping the steripen? If so, how should I deal with my plethora of other issues (e.g. silty/cloudy water, taste, agricultural/organic chemicals, etc.) Will the Katadyn carbon filter accomplish the desired results? -OR- should I return the steripen and use the money toward a Platypus GravityWorks or a Sawyer Water Treatment system- essentially accepting the chances of viruses? -OR- Do I go with the tried and true pump filters that people have used for years and just understand field maintenance of filters is just the price you pay for not carrying 3 days of water on your back.

>> in my council JTE is being used to identify units that don't meet >> Bronze levels this rechartering cycle (December 2011) as "flagged >> units." >> if there is no evidence of improvement (note, they don't have to >> make Bronze, just show improvement), their charters will not be >> renewed at the end of 2012 Woah! that is a bit intrusive and authoritarian. :-/ While I understand their lofty goals, there are a number of reasons units may not hit bronze- interest in the program being one of them. While I like the program and BSA setting goals of what the program should be... witholding recharter approval is overstepping imho.

Basement: Am reviving this topic after it has been inactive because I just learned about the program today and the first thing I did was came here to see what others are saying about it. Like you, I believe I run a pretty quality unit and I don't put much stock in what national, council or district does. On the other hand, there are resources to be had by working with these larger groups rather than against them or even ignoring them. Personally, I eagerly embrace the change from Quality Unit to Journey To Excellence and I'll explain why with an example: The way things were laid out before, DE's/council staff were compensated based on the number of units they started. It was more desirable to the paid BSA staff to have 10 units of 10 boys rather than 3 unit of 33 boys. This caused our DE and I to actually 'compete' against each other for recruiting new boys in our town with population 12,000. I constantly kept finding myself at odds with council/district about how to recruit from the schools and the support we would even receive. For example, council would not approve the wording we requested on our fall recruiting flyers (and therefore wouldn't print recruiting flyers for us in the fall) because they wanted to manage the recruiting events. In other words, council did not want us to manage our own recruiting... and to do so placed me in direct competition against council. It wasn't a good situation. By comparison, the new JTE program focuses on the quality of existing units. Is your unit growing? Are you putting on strong programs? Are you doing community projects? Are you doing outdoor camping events? Are you advancing the boys? Are you retaining the ones you have signed up? For my unit (and it sounds like for yours), the answer to all of the above is yes, but now my DE has compensation tied to my doing what I have always done. This lets us work as partners in continuing the quality of my unit- not as competitors. and for that reason, I am excited to see this program and I would like to see it embraced.

I have had some time to relax and think about the different replies from different people. I believe the root of the heated exchanges stems from a disagreement of whether or not truth is knowable/relative. The majority of posters in this thread appear to believe that truth is not knowable or it is relative to the position of the person trying to discover truth. There are others (and I put myself in this camp) that contend truth is absolute and can be known through study and pursuit. Our difference in this position is worthy of a different thread on its own and I suspect at the end of it, we would find ourselves agreeing to disagree.