Once_Eagle-Always_Eagle

Pack: I'll try to answer your question by asking some other questions first. Where would you propose the new line for membership be? - Should we allow girls into the Boy Scout program? After all, why should we discrimiate on gender and prohibit them the same freedom granted to boys? - Should we remove the minimum age from cub scouts? Why discriminate based on age? Allowing freedom of younger scouts to join to before they get involved in other programs. - Should we open the program to devil worshipers? Alas, there may be units that do this already although I'd hope not. But would you constrain beliefs to those that worship a loving God or would you restrict the free exercise of choice by governing the spiritual deity someone chooses to follow? - In fact, why even require a belief in God at all? Surely freedom to choose would include the freedom to not choose as well. Why should the BSA mandate a belief in God when freedom would allow you to believe whatever you wish? Needless to say, my rhetorical questions are dripping with sarcasm. and while I actually don't like starting so aggressively, I am utterly tired of the assault on traditional conservative principles. This is not about freedom, discrimination or even sexual orientation. To paint the conversation in this light misses the point of the opposition. It is about the ability of an organization to set and maintain it's core values vs. having those values dictated by those that disagree. And yes... to me is is also about standards of right and wrong and how we define what is acceptable to our youth- including my son. In Scouting for Boys, Baden-Powell wrote specifically about Christianity >> We aim for the practice of Christianity in their everyday life and dealings, and not merely the profession of theology on Sundays When asked where religion came into Scouting and Guiding, Baden-Powell replied, >> It does not come in at all. It is already there. It is a fundamental factor underlying Scouting and Guiding. I understand scouting is no longer a Christian organization (nor was it ever) and only requires boys to maintain a belief in a higher power (for the time being)... but you cannot escape that it was founded on Christian principles- of which homosexuality is a sin. Lest you believe I am hypocritical, I acknowledge that I have in the past, I still do and will in the future sin myself. The difference is I don't habitually seek to make my sin a lifestyle nor force others to accept it as normal. So to answer your question? I would absolutely afford anyone the same freedom I have. Either: 1) Accept the organization and the core values and beliefs *OR* 2) Start your own organization with core values and beliefs you can support.

And this is why I love this forum. Thanks ADC! I just didn't read far enough down the policy,but that lays it out really well. As qwazse said, this isn't a slippery slope at all. you guys are great!

So the YPT policy says no boy may share a tent with an adult other than his own parent. Pretty black and white, right? ok, so here goes the slippery slope. 1) What about sleeping on an aircraft carrier, battleship or submarine? Most scout units do this at some point and they've never given us separate quarters for adults and youth. Is this a violation of policy? Personally, I believe we were fine. 2) What about a lock-in/sleep-over? In the past we put the boys on the floor and adults on cots in front of the doors. We had 15~20 boys in a room with 4 adults. Did we break policy? Something inside me says we were still compliant with the intent of the rule. Now we are looking at an outing in January with our Webelos 2. Historical weather for this time of year often has lows in the 20's with daytime highs in the 40s ~ 50s. To ensure the best experience for the boys, we are looking to rent 2 cabins at the state park. (Skip giving me flack over the cabins instead of the tents. If it gets the boys excited about joining Boy Scouts, I'll let them do the winter camping in a tent next year.) So can we put the 2 adults in a cabin with the boys on the floor? I suspect it is fine and I see little distinction between this and what transpired at a lock-in or on the battleship. Second choice is to put the boys in a cabin and the adults in the second. That leaves the boys in a cabin without direct adult supervision. I question if this is more of a risk to the boys than the first option. Thoughts?

There has been an abundance of talk after the unspeakable horror of what transpired in Newtown, CT on 12/14/12. Most of the talk since has been around solutions or blame. I've listened to various sources over the last 5 days and a non-exhaustive list of things I have heard includes: Solutions: We need to allow teachers to carry guns. We need armed/trained security guards in schools. We need to ban semi-automatic weapons. We need to prohibit or greatly limit violent video games. We need bullet proof glass/locks that would prevent a gunman from breaking in. We need a better way to keep guns away from criminals. We need a better way to help the mentally ill. And blame... It's the mother's fault because she didn't keep her guns locked. It's the parent's fault because the trauma of divorce was too much. It's the media's fault for giving 'fame and attention' to the murderer. It's Hollywood's fault for glamorizing violence. It's the government's fault for removing God from the schools. It's God's judgment on Connecticut because they allowed gay marriage. For the record, I find that last statement on judgment repugnant! Anyway, God didn't ask us to find solutions or to blame. He called us into relationships with others (more on this in a minute). Until then, there are some things I believe everyone can agree on regardless of your political or religious ideology. They include: Families of those innocent murdered children and teachers need significant sympathy and consolation right now. The young man involved was deeply troubled (to greatly understate it). To call his actions evil or say "Evil visited Newtown" was accurate. Regardless, the person that committed these unspeakable acts needed a different spirit than the one that controlled him. During this Christmas season, peace, joy and hope was taken from Newtown. These three principles though are not limited to a period of time at the end of the calendar year. They must endure year-round and saturate our lives. They are needed by all people at all time. Placing blame or assigning fault does nothing to bring the children back nor does it lessen the pain of those so filled with grief right now. Looking at preventative measures (more guns, locks and laws) fails to address the root cause. At best, they mitigate the impact of evil. So what is my conclusion to all this? As Christians, we know who has overcome this world. We know who has conquered death. We know who Him who will conquer evil. We know the true source of peace, joy, hope, compassion, sympathy and love. We know the healer that is able to quiet the anxious soul. We know the one that has authority and power over demons. Let's stop going day after day keeping this light 'hidden under a basket' or at best commiserating in our holy huddle. Let us unashamedly and with renewed vigor take our message to a world that has shown it needs answers. Let's take the message of the Gospel to a world that clearly needs Jesus. (This message has been edited by once_eagle-always_eagle)

Yes the other roundtable of the other district is closer to us but the extra 20 mile drive to roundtable once/month isn't going to break us. And yes I think the neighboring district is better run, but that isn't why I am interested in switching either. Bottom line, our unit has lost confidence in our DE entirely... and the district chair is even further gone- yet council supports these two lock, stock and barrel. In fact, they dismissed *ALL* volunteers on the district committee EXCEPT the district chairman. We had people in there with 10~20 years of scouting experience who were abruptly removed from district positions without warning. The only thing holding me back is that council/district mandates all recruiting in schools is to be run through district. Any individual unit efforts to recruit in schools are prohibited. They even confiscated our recruiting signs in August and we received a council threat to revoke our charter if we tried to 'undermine district recruiting' again.

Our council has defined districts based on population centers- no qualms there. However, for a number of reasons it looks like it is conceivably better for our unit if we could switch districts. Is this possible? If so, what is the process? Has anyone ever done this or heard of it being done?

I was able to collect a lot of opinions and draw them into a single document. If anyone is interested, you can see the finished product here: https://sites.google.com/site/forneycubscoutpack1007/importantdocs/tips_and_tricks_to_a_great_pack_ver2.pptx

i believe the bsa spokesman said it well. There is a difference between disagreement and disrespect- and i see many posters that make no such distinction. i can respect your difference in religious beliefs or even your belief that homosexuality is normal... but it doesn't mean i agree. the problem i have is you are changing the standards after the fact. if you don't like the standards start a new org. and allowing local CO only works to the extent we have agreed upon standards. Take it to the Nth degree... lets allow girls in too if the chartered org will- i can think of MANY benefits! But i suspectthe BSA won't fit the original mold of what B.P. intended.

as usual beavah- wise reply. i'm just scared the bsa will cave to the societal pressure... but i conceed the wisdom of your position.

Ah packsaddle... :-( I didn't link to the petition on purpose. I didn't want anyone to sign it. I want to support the BSA policy.

I fully realize this has been beaten to death in other threads (e.g. When will National realize this is affecting membership). My concern is that this topic appears to have a lot of social momentum and I'd like to see us rally together in support of the BSA policy. For those that may have missed the national news headlines in the last week, this is all over the news again and is now a change.org petition. The wording of the change.org petition I am wishing to counter is shown below: ### start of change.org petition ### My 7-year-old son, Cruz, loves being a Cub Scout, and he really loved when I got to be his pack's den leader. But the Boy Scouts of America asked me to step down as the leader of my son's group -- just because I'm gay. Cruz doesn't understand why that matters, and frankly, neither do I. When Cruz told us last year that he wanted to be a Boy Scout, my partner and I were concerned. We knew the organization has discriminated against families like ours before. But the other families in Cruz's group were so welcoming and supportive - they even asked me to be a den leader on the first day. One year later, our fears came to life. A representative of the Boy Scouts of America abruptly told me I was no longer welcome - that because I'm gay, I didn't "meet the high standards of membership that the Boy Scouts of America seek." I hated feeling that my family had been discriminated against, so I started a petition on Change.org asking the Boy Scouts of America to stop discriminating against gay people. Click here to sign my petition. During the year that I was den leader, my cubs performed volunteer service at a local soup kitchen, collected canned goods for area churches to distribute in food baskets, and worked on a conservation project for a state park. After I was asked to leave, other parents from my pack were outraged. Some of them even waited for hours to voice their concerns to Boy Scout officials, but they were turned away. As for Cruz, he doesn't really understand why there's a problem. He made a sign that says "I love my two gay moms." Other organizations like the Girl Scouts and Boys & Girls Clubs of America welcome gay kids as well as adult leaders -- I know that if thousands of people sign my petition, the Boy Scouts will see that it's time for them to adopt a policy that incorporates their own core values of compassion and respect.

Improved version now up: http://www.vote4noneoftheabove.com am I the only one disgusted with the choices for president this year?

ok, version 2 posted trying to incorporate a lot of the feedback. The main one I know I ignored is about the quotes because I have a sentimental attachment to them. https://sites.google.com/site/forneycubscoutpack1007/importantdocs/tips_and_tricks_to_a_great_pack_ver2.pptx Better? p.s. - You may need to view the notes page now to get the context of some of the bullets. p.p.s- oops- i forgot to correct Cubmaster(This message has been edited by once_eagle-always_eagle)

I am teaching a course at the University of Scouting on tips for a great pack. I'd love to hear your input and feedback for changes you think I should make- or more importantly, things that you believe I omitted. You can see my presentation at the following location: https://sites.google.com/site/forneycubscoutpack1007/importantdocs/tips_and_tricks_to_a_great_pack.pptx

No offense taken. It's clearly not a black and white issue (at least not to me). And once again to be transparent, I don't feel 100% good about it. On the other hand, there are few things I do feel 100% certain of. To me it *is* an issue of loyalty... and while you didn't profess a loyalty oath, it is the second principle in the scout law "A scout is trustworthy, LOYAL, ..." His loyalty is to the other units- and I assert that loyalty is ultimately hurting the boys in our unit. Here's how it plays out. When I refer to finances, it's not about a big bank account. We're non profit and the difference between money in vs money out was $500 last year. BUT, money raised through fund raisers determines the types of activities we can perform and how much we can do for the boys. 1) By not directing his fundraising efforts to his home unit, we don't benefit from his sales efforts. That money is not available for our activities and resources for OUR boys to use. (Not a deal in and of itself, there are other boys that don't fund raise too, but they don't raise money for the other units.) 2) Second, his aggressive sales efforts limit our own ability to raise funds. For example, I called the local grocery store about selling scout cards in front of the store to discover that he had reserved every weekend for the OTHER unit through the duration of the fundraiser. 3) The money that he helps generate for the other units allows them to offer more activities, more 'cool' destinations and at a lower cost. When comparing units, boys will gravitate to the other unit because their destinations are better and at a lower cost. And while removing him as leader won't change his ability to direct his fundraising where he wishes, this will slightly level the playing field. As a leader in our unit, he has access to all of our boys and their contact information, and he sits in the committee meetings where we plan our recruiting and fundraising ideas. It is my belief he then uses this as intelligence to give the other unit a competitive advantage. When all is said and done, I want to put forth the highest quality program for my boys and for my charter org. My success does not hinge on one person, but one of my leaders does not share our goal of making our unit the best it can be- and if you're not on the side of making our unit the best, then I want to fill the position with someone who is.