Old_OX_Eagle83

The answer all depends on what you use the trailer for, and how. Today's more responsible, fuel efficient vehicles, aren't friendly with hauling a pack and stave per passenger, and this is a good reason to have a troop trailer. Easily added to this are the needs to transport pioneering project materials, canoes, skis, or whatever special event material may be needed. The downside to troop trailers, expense aside, is the ease of bringing un-needed items. Bulky stoves, massive shelters. enormous tents, cots, back yard chairs, massive coolers, generators, and event televisions make the list of non-scout like junk I've seen in troop trailers. These are good examples of bad ways to use a trailer, followed by an even more basic one ... scouts feel comfortable bringing more then will fit in a backpack. One of the elements of scout camping is figuring out what you actually "need", and learning to share and pool resources to get by. Another key element of scout camping is patrol method. Each patrol should have its own gear, there should be no such thing as troop gear. Patrol gear is split between the patrol members packs, with a few items carried .. again team work. Troop trailers encourage the potentially fatal disease known as drag and drop camping. If trailers are used, they should be parked far from the camp site, to intentionally make access difficult. Scouting is a game with a purpose, and we have to constantly our choices to make certain they support, not detract, from that purpose.

Here's someone who gets scouting!

Rick, phones are not cameras, or books. You should have said "phones may be used as cameras or books"; an entirely different statement, with an entirely different meaning. There's two more things that haven't been added to the mix here: 1. Expensive electronics don't do well in the wilderness. Phones don't float well, aren't good underwater, don't do well in the rain, don't do well in the mud, have issues with being smashed, have to have air flow, and can't get excessively hot of cold ... not ideal for camping. 2. Phones undermine the "scout laboratory" that is the wilderness. Key concepts in this wilderness environment include: 1. Comfort trying new and different things; cameras undermine this. 2. Problem solving with limited resource access to force scouts to communicate and work together; answers are easily had on the internet. 3. Independence, figuring out things without mom and dad there to tell you how to do things, and what to do; if mom and dad are one button push away this will never happen. 4. use of tools and devices requiring logical thinking and eye hand use; electronics simplify these tasks. 5. Learning how to do things, what things are, and how they work. Internet access, and easy reference access shift a scouts mentality to "why memorize/learn, when I can just look it up when I need to know". Maybe I've got it wrong, we should just create programs to do the scouting, and send virtual badges to the kids game avatars, so other players can see how good of a program tr0!!d@ddx has.

"While your point is valid to some extent, it is not our responsibility to monitor the access on the internet; that is their parents' responsibility. " Not correct Skeptic; for four reasons: 1. The youth is in the charge and care of BSA/Unit/Charter Org at camp, the parents do not decide camp/BSA/Unit/Charter Org rules. Choosing to send the youth to camp, while being aware of the rules, is a decision to abide by the rules. 2. Youth 1 online activities, in the privacy of his tent, are viewed by youth 2, whose parents may not agree with what youth 2 is exposed to. You have an obligation to protect both youth. 3. A parent's lack of understanding of the technology involved, and how to restrict it's use, does not excuse you as a leader from your obligation to protect all youth in your charge. 4. While at scouts activities scouts will show Scout Spirit, which has nothing to do with cheerleaders, but rather is living by the codes of scouting. It's your responsibility as a leader to ensure the scouts in your charge are abiding by these codes while at scout events ... not the parents. If a parent has an issue with this, their child does not have to attend camp.

I used to be a BEAR and a Good 'ol Bear too... And now I'm finished Bearing... I don't I don't know what to do... I'm growing old and feable and I can Bear no more... So I am going to work my ticket if I can... Back to Gilwell.. Happy Land.. I'm going to work my ticket if I can... (sorry to revive an old thread, but I needed that)

My youngest is working on Eagle; he and I are doing a high adventure trip to the BWCA in June. Enjoy the time you have with them, soon they'll be to busy for you. I think this may be my last chance to pry his eyes from electronics, and girls, and help him see this amazing world with his own eyes. These are special times indeed.

Here come the corporate clones in their crisp suits, chanting "you must comply": to neuter us and sanitize our program.

Fantastic write up. We're being made a battle ground for special interest groups; and it's being done because it gets those special interests media attention. Neither side of this battle gives a darn about scouting, or what they destroy to get in the spotlight. I view everyone who has poured fuel on this fire as an enemy of scouting, regardless of what side they're on. We scouts don't have a side, we're here to help youth realize their potential, and become strong citizens that not only succeed, but make this world a better place as they do so ... partisan politics has no place in this program. If we can rise above all the muck being slung, stay the course, and resist reacting to goading, our quality will be there for all to see, and none to question.

You hit the nail on the head Stosh

For those of you that have stated you either allow your youth members to have cell phones, or know they break the rules, and as long as it's out of sight that's ok; here's a question for you: How are you monitoring what these scouts are doing on the phone, and the internet it grants access to? Don't we have a responsibility to monitor internet usage, and the general behavior of the scouts while in our charge? Two, or more, scouts alone in a tent with sleeping bags and cots can't get into much trouble. Two or more teens/adolescents alone, and unsupervised, with full internet access can get into a great deal of trouble. We have an obligation to look after these youth, and in most respects stand in the place of the parent when they are in our charge. How can any responsible adult think it's ok to give a group of unsupervised teenage boys open, and unmonitored, access to the internet?

We don't allow youth to bring electronics to scout outing. We meaning pack, troop, or crew.

Many things have been said, but not much time has been spent on three essential items: 1. Scouts go to week long camps to become independent, and have association with non-parent adult role models. 2. Scouting at it's best takes place in wilderness settings to remove the distractions of every day life. 3. When all the gadgets and gizmo's are turned off youth hear and see the real world around them. Not to get overly spiritual, but God has spoke to me many times, and in many ways, none of them involved a cell phone... On this past weekend's camp out a fellow leader, busy texting and checking weather on his phone, asked me where my phone was. I replied" "in my jeep, back where we entered the property". In shock he asked if I thought my phone was dead. My response: "I certainly hope so" ... he put away his phone

It our unit we require every volunteer and parent to take YP. BSA's rules are more lax, but where's the downside to having everyone YP trained?

Although I can't speak to the validity of the cited numbers, I have seen the salaries of top execs in large councils, and would not be shocked if number given for the CSE's salary is in the correct range. America is rifle with the issue of overpaid top execs, our non-profits are as guilty as any. I'm not excusing excessive salaries, far from it, but I'm not remotely surprised. As members, we should expect full disclosure of the compensation paid to our professionals, and have a voice in approving those salaries. I imagine a 50% pay cut of every BSA exec, above DE, would not only not damage BSA, but greatly benefit it. Those funds could be used to give DE's, and grass roots level support staff, a 25% raise, and still have enough left to reduce Jambo and High Adventure base fee's by 50%, making these programs available to a larger group of scouts.

Well said Torchwood

I sense that this one is strong with scouting ... Welcome to the forums!

ScoutNut, you read one BSA policy on advancement ... this is BSA. so complete your education by doing the following: 1. Take MBC Orientation 2. Read the current SM Handbook 3. Take current Committee Challenge 4. Read BSA District and Council Operations Guides 5. Take Scoutmaster position specific training 6. Take Philmont Training Center course for Key Three and District Operations What you'll find, after completing this list, is that like with so much else in BSA, the material is not in agreement. When you take all of this as a whole you will understand the accuracy of my original answer. As far as the CO/BSA relationship, you are once again correct in the written word of one policy regarding this question, but ignore several other items that interpret and modify what you're citing. For better, and worse, BSA policy is never a matter of one clearly written statement, from one source. You'll also find that many of the "policies" are not only written but someone who is clueless on how to make things work, and generally discarded, but that this was the intent when they were written ... corporations are good at CYA, and equally good at supporting what works, even if they can't get a room full of stuffed shirts to pass it as policy.

What happened was not only clearly a BSA policy violation, it was also very bad judgment. No drinking in the presence of youth period; if it's a scout gathering, it's a scout gathering. It makes no difference if a leader is in, or out, of uniform, he or she is still a scout leader. This is about safety and being the correct role model for all scouts.

Scout Nut I'm not sure where you get your misinformation, but it's way off. You would do well to remember the District and Council are merely 2nd line support for the Charter Orgs who own the program.

The who gay thing has nothing to do with this issue, just as the policy change had no real impact on any Boy Scout or Cub Scout. The three key elements that have caused our decline have been clearly identified in this thread: 1. Our program became outdated, and the attempt to update it went sideways (BSA needs to admit this and go back to the basics, and build a better update, not patch the broken one). 2. Our only true selling point, to the scouts, is real life adventure ... something you can't get behind a controller and keyboard, and fear of liability has watered down this element so far that our founders would be ashamed. 3. Many adults think this is their program. This is a program of youth, by youth, for youth; as long as no laws a broken, and no one is going to get hurt, adults need to sit down and shut up. (I am an adult BTW)

I would take exception. You can argue socialism, but Communism is just plain BAD! It has never worked anywhere it has been tried and in the Soviet Union, Cuba and North Korea, it has resulted in catastrophe after catastrophe. I confess to being a capitalist pig, but I've just not seen any case of good coming from Communism, whatever dictionary definitions you care to use. The concept of Communism is a fantastic one, but you are correct, to my knowledge there has never been a good large scale application of it. If we all lived in isolated hunter/gatherer, or even small independent agrarian communities it could work. However, our reality is one of global community. Of course, just for debates sake, I'll point out that no true democracy has succeeded on a large scale either. For me the lesson is in the fact that no pure form of governance has succeeded, on a large scale, over an extended period of time. To prevent flames let me point out we in the US do not live in a democracy, and our nation is both young, and on shaky footing.

Rick, I'll look up the debates, I bet they'll be an interesting read.

Christineka, Keep in mind this is no longer Cub Scouts, the Troop will not work on rank advancement for your son, that is his responsibility. If you son, not you, is unsure of what to do he need to go to his Patrol Leader for guidance (if he's in a young scout patrol he may have a Troop Guide instead of a Patrol Leader). Those older boys are the troop leaders, it's good that they're there. Scoutmasters coach and mentor senior youth, they do not run the program. Also keep in mind all those outings are where you so leans, grows, and as a byproduct advances. The outdoors are the learning lab for Boy Scouts. Lots of older scouts, and an active outdoor program are signs of a healthy unit. There are some questions about advancement in the unit that need explored. Your contact is the New Parent Coordinator; if the unit doesn't have one speak with the Advancement Chair.

There's all kinds of bad information in play here. From the Scout's prospective: 1. The scout goes to his Scoutmaster with a request to work on a Merit Badge. 2. The scoutmaster assign's the Scout a Counselor. 3. The Scoutmaster issues the Scout a Blue Card 4. The scout presents to the Counselor with the Blue Card 5. Following all Youth Protection Rules of BSA, and the Scout's Charter Organization, the scout works with the appointed Counselor until completion, or either party can't continue. 6. Retaining his portion of the Blue Card the Counselor returns the remaining two updated portions of the Blue Card to the Scout 7. The Scout Returns to his Scoutmaster who will verify the Blue Card is completed correctly, and in doing so be put on notice that the scout is no longer working with the Counselor. 8. Retaining his portion of the Blue Card the scout delivers the remaining portion of the Blue Card to the Troop Advancement Chair. There are two flavors of Merit Badge Counselors: 1. Council 2. Unit The Council Counselor is registered in this position with the Council, has completed Merit Badge Counselor Orientation & Youth Protection Training, and has been approved for the specific merit badges in question by the Council AC. (The Council AC often delegates these duties and responsibilities to his District AC's). The Unit Counselor still needs to be registered as a Merit Badge Counselor, but has specified he wants to work with one unit only. He must still have: completed Merit Badge Counselor Orientation & Youth Protection Training, and have been approved for the specific merit badges in question by the Troop AC.(The Council AC can revoke the registration of Unit Counselors, but only does so in extreme cases) The Scoutmaster has ultimate authority on assignment of Scouts to Merit Badge Counselors, and his decision can't be overridden. However, the SM does not approve MB work, just the Counselor, and that only at the point of assignment. A Unit Advancement Chair can remove a Unit MB Counselor, but not reject a completed Merit Badge after the fact, just as a Scoutmaster cannot. I hope this clarifies things.

Rick, I blame the media and the political machine. The media exploits any word, term, or name that can provoke a reaction. The political machine, throughout the entirety of recorded history, twists the perceived meaning of words to achieve the means of those who are, or would be, in power. Hollywood ... well that may even be worse. Communism isn't necessarily bad, neither is socialism for that matter. Of course, the perception held by the average person doesn't remotely resemble the definitions of these words found in any dictionary. Ignorance is dangerous, engineering misconceptions should be punishable under the law.