Old_OX_Eagle83

This is a throw back to times past, and serves not good purpose in today's world.

This should pop up when anyone clicks "post reply"

Good thread, RRO are used to keep things fair, and civil. A Troop PLC or Lodge LEC certainly should use them, as they are voting bodies. Unit Committees, as pointed out above, are not voting bodies, but rather are variety of members, and/or sub-committees, that appear to report progress, coordinate, and receive new assignments. Depending on how you interpret unit committee structure there are either three votes (the actual officers on the Charter), or it's one individual empowered to act with a limited portion of the authority of the Charter Org. As I have said before, if it comes down to figuring out who has the authority, something is broke. Everyone should act as a team working toward common goals.

BadenP, your painting in broad strokes, and didn’t fully understand my post. You do have a full appreciation of the Charter Orgs role, but not that of the committee. Before delving into this let me make an important distinction. BSA policy and training paints a picture of a fully engaged Charter Org, in reality most orgs give the unit their blessing to run things as they choose, and don’t want to be bothered. Involving the Charter Org is something to approach carefully; and unless you’re the CC or COR, should be done through the CC, or if the CC is the issue through the UC. For the sake of this discussion there is one actual known issue, a lack of communication. “Why the changes?†No party involved handled this well, they all need to sit down and talk. I would contact your UC, so an outside party can facilitate a discussion. As far as Unit Function, here’s the skinny on what has to happen one more time (Note: what typically happens differs): BSA and Charter Org Head decide to partner to offer a program The Charter Org appoints a COR The COR Appoints a CC (BSA approves the appointment) The CC forwards makes recommendations of candidates to fill committee positions to the COR (Charter Org approves or rejects) (BSA approves or rejects) CC recommends CM candidate to COR (Charter Org approves or rejects) (BSA approves or rejects) CM recruits his DL’s, ADL’s, and ACM’s, submits candidates to CC for approval (CC not Committee), if CC approves à(Charter Org approves or rejects) (BSA approves or rejects) Ok, now your unit is built How things operate: COR answers to Charter Org Head CC answers to COR Committee officers answer to CC CM answers to COR (not CC or Committee) ACM and DL’s answer to CM ADL’s answer to DL’s UC is liaison between BSA and Charter Org Head/COR , as well as mentor/coach to CM and CC *All units at every level have a “Key Threeâ€Â. For A pack the key three is the COR, CC, and CM, who work as a team to steer the program. *The Charter Org owns the franchise *BSA provides the franchise *The Committee is responsible for operations, and provides program support *The CM is responsible for program and his volunteer leaders *The DL’s are responsible for the actual scouts If you’re having discussions about any of this something is broke, as everyone should be one big team! What gets me about this entire thread is the selfish focus many have, thinking only about their own scout. Look at the big picture, in scouts you're not a parent, your a leader. Leaders have an obligation to all the scouts, and fellow leaders. Something is very broke here, I have no idea what this CM is thinking, but whatever he's attempting he's going about it a bad way. For god's sake sit down and talk, find out what's up. Your new CM may have the best intentions, and the worst possible plan; help him. There's another important distinction to make here, in our scenario the CM is changing assignments, not appointing or removing volunteer leaders ... no matter how you look at things a CM is specifically given this authority.

The OA, like all other scout programs, is exactly what we make of it. If there's a problem, step up with a solution. The OA program in my District has become a pale shadow of its former self, and I was a complainer, remembering the program from my glory days. Once I took a closer look, and saw the lack of support nor only for the program, but also for the youth who were passionate about the OA, I threw my hat back in the ring. The OA is valuable part of the BSA program, but we must always remember it's comprised of the scouts in our units, and it's mission is to serve and strengthen our units.

The OA is a Boy Scout program, adults are not in charge. I keep reading posts bashing things your local Lodges/Chapters are and are not doing. One question: how many scouts from your unit are active in the OA? The OA isn't an outside group, it's made up of scouts from units, yours included ... are you and your scouts promoting the program, and supplying the man power to move things in a positive direction, or just sitting back waiting for others to deliver the program to you?

The answer to your question is simple – YES he can I’m not endorsing what was done, as Pack Leadership should function as a team. Now let me explain: The Charter org appoints a CC The CC fills the committee positions The committee identifies CM candidates, and makes a recommendation to the Charter Org, which can confirm or veto the appointment Once the CM is appointed he identifies and recruits his assistant, and the Den Leaders, typically with the committee’s help, but the committee doesn’t have to be part of this process. The Charter Org must approve all volunteers. Remember the committee’s role is support, and the CM’s role is program. Although I don’t agree what how this was done, as this act appeared to take a group of leaders who were presumably in the late stages of team development, back to square one, I also have a huge issue with parents who are just there for their child. While it’s true many packs do progress leaders with their own child, it’s equally true that may packs won't allow a parent to serve as a leader for their child’s den. When you decide to be a scouting volunteer you’re making a choice to serve, mentor, and guide all youth within the program, not facilitate your own child’s advancement. Please note office patches say “Leader†not Mom or Dad. I can think of many reasons, some good and some bad, why a CM might do this. Rather than yelling and getting angry a simple, logical question should have been asked “why do you want to make these changes?†Without the answer to that question this whole conversation is a waste of time.

Welcome, and pull up a seat! Much like any Roundtable we’re a mixture of grumpy old salts, throw-backs pining for days long past, and young fire brands. Despite our short-comings, or perhaps because of them, and the debate they spark, this group often can provide some good insight and advise.

Capt, It sounds like you have a real issue, but due to my own ignorance I don’t follow the question. (I suspect I’m not alone). Questions: What is Twilight camp? Who is the camp for? Who puts on the camp?

Two part answer - Part One: The OA program, as currently operated is specifically designed as a Boy Scout program. This is a BSA policy decision tied to the purpose, function, and structure of the OA. The question you’re raising has been raised for over fifty years, originally by female explorers and female Professional Scouters. Adding adult females to the program, beginning in the late 80’s, had a huge impact on the dynamic of the program. Adults are only advisers, not participants. Female program participants is a difficult fit. Ceremonies and dance are based on native American tradition and history, and only allowed so long as we respect the beliefs, traditions, and customs of the native Americans; Putting a female in full regalia, and headdress, would not go over well with the native communities we purport to honor, nor would allowing a female to participate as a fancy dancer. Additionally, the changes in YP policy, with change the structure and nature of OA events, possibly in a harmful way. Part Two: It is recognized that Venture scouts need a Servant Leadership program, and for that reason this question is again being informally discussed. For now, I would point you to the Corps of Discovery, a Servant Leadership pilot program designed for Venture Crews. I’m not certain the Corps is even an official pilot yet, it may be. Dr. Craig Murray of CA is a good contact, visit his web site Sage Venture. The unofficial third part (my opinion): If we are considering officially exploring this topic again, let’s once again explore the possibility of coed program at all levels. We are in a new, more modern era, and perhaps we should consider joining the vast majority of the works scouting community in becoming coed, and if not lets be very clear on why not, and for what benefit.

Policy is this (Boy Scout): Oscar De la Renta uniforms are worn with red loops and red numbers. Centennial uniforms are worn with green loops and green numbers. To have a bit of fun, and make this point, y son who owns both type shirts, got into my old stuff and sewed my old colored office, rank, and Arrow of Light patches on his Oscar shirt. He gets lots of double takes. I'm not a uniform Nazi, but do try to follow uniform policy. Although it pains me to say it, I like the Oscar De La Renta shirts best. Typically I wear a first run Venture shirt (an Oscar), I wish I could find another tan one. Before anyone tries to call me out for wearing a Venture shirt, I'm a UC who serves both unit types. In my second role, OA Adviser, I wear a tan shirt, as OA is a Boy Scout program.

The Patrol Method is "Our Gang" or " The Little Rascals" with structure and values, engaging in activities with a purpose. The adult (SM, or his delegate) sets the framework for activities, and ensures the required skills and tools are made available, while developing youth leadership through coaching (this should mostly flow from through the SPL). The ASPL is perhaps the most misunderstood, and misused position in BSA. I blame the name, Assistant Senior Patrol Leader ... which is exactly what he isn't. The SPL is responsible for leading, coaching, and mentoring his Patrol Leaders and Guides (we used to call them command positions). Additionally he's responsible to set the direction of the troop by converting his vision to a plan, communicating it to make it a shared vision, and leading his officers in making this vision a reality. The ASPL is responsible for the remaining officers (those not directly responsible for people): QM, Scribe, Historian, ect. When I say responsible I mean the ASPL is answerable for the success or failure, and as such is responsible for mentoring, coaching, and supervising these officers. Yes, in the event of the SPL absence the ASPL is on charge, but this is the least of his responsibility.

The correct answer is it's your responsibility to keep up with your advancement, not the Troops, District's, or Council's. Your next step should be to request a Scoutmaster Conference to talk about what needs to be done; only your Scoutmaster can answer that question ... I suspect after giving you a hard time, and talking about responsibility, he'll give you direction on how to get the information in the new book, and once you've done that, compliment you on achieving First Class.

Scout Spirit is a scout "doing his or her best" to live by the tenements of scouting: Oath, Law, Slogan, Motto, Outdoor Code, Pledge of Allegiance, the Requirement's of his or her Faith, and should the scout be an Arrowman, whatever obligations he, or she has taken. For Cubs, Varsity, Venture, Sea Scout, and Explorer, adjust accordingly - for now.

Interesting question, and one we could split policy hairs with ... or just let common sense decide. Ask yourself what are the scouts intended to get out of fulfilling this requirement ... make sure they are getting this, then ask for District Advancement Chair to approve your end plan.

I'm sad because I see them less often, but that's all that changes. As a scout leader I see the same kid, and will still do whatever I can to help him or her.

Easy there Torchwood. Twocub isn't looking for a critique, he's looking for advice on how to proceed. Hindsight is a beautiful thing, but not what's needed here. There's lots of great advice in this thread, and clearly you're trying to help this young man become a better person, or you would have taken the easy route some while ago, and sent him packing. I suggest you stay very aware of the damage this young man can cause. You apparently have had heart to heart talks, and they have not worked. Time to put it on the line, by all means do refuse to sign off on scout spirit, and explain why. I would also discuss his failure to perform, and poor performance with the SPL, who should recommend that the PLC remove him from office. Let him know he'll have to earn the respect of his fellow scouts to gain another office, and he needs office to advance. I'm sorry to put it this way, but it sounds like the troop exists to facilitate advancement (I'm very happy that you realize advancement isn't the purpose of scouting, and only one method), put the brakes on him. It should like you have lots of work to do with the unit, I hope you have a some scout leaders to help you put the troop on track. If things are as bad as they sound, and there isn't enough support to turn the "eagle machine" back into a Boy Scout Troop, you might consider speaking with the Charter Org about pulling the plug, and starting over elsewhere.

Polls are inaccurate and skewed by design, I'd not place any stock in this, or any other poll, about anything.

I'm interested in how this comes out. Are you willing to posit periodic updates on who the planning and event goes? You have a chance to pioneer a good program here; the closest thing we have is Powder Horn.

This is very , and I feel for the young man's family and friends. However, before getting carried away here, this does not necessarily point to a program failure. Also, to keep things in perspective, consider how many injuries and deaths occur in unsupervised, and undisciplined outdoor activities. The reason these type of tragic events at scout outing are such big news is the rarity of the occurrence. I'm not excusing, or minimizing this, it is tragic; just keep things in perspective.

Yes, the program is youth ran, however within clearly defined parameters. Setting standards for each activity the scouts engage in is key. For example, in our troop menu expectations are al follows: 1. All meals are to well balanced, and nutritional, with appropriate portions. (See Current Cooking Merit Badge Pamphlet for additional information). 2. All meals are to be prepared and cleaned up in a way that is in full compliance with leave no trace. (See Boy Scout Handbook) 3. All meals should be chosen with program times and restrictions in mind. (See PL for Event Agenda ) 4. All meals are to be chosen with thought being given to transport, preservation, and preparation based on location of event and mode of travel. (See PL for Event Details) 5. Two patrol members will be assigned by the PL to shop and transport the food to the site (this will be on a rotation) 6. The Grub Master is responsible to ensure these guidelines are followed 7. The SPL must approve all patrol menus and be prepared to answer any questions the SM may have Soda does not have a place on a scout outing, but what you're seeing may be a part of the learning process being used.

The Troop is a Unit type; unit is a generic term used for Packs, Troops, Teams, Crews, Posts, Districts, Lodges, Councils, ect. Think "unit of measure", which refers to a great many things. I understand your concern, and as a former Scout Master have had this talk with many a parent. The first thing to understand is your scout has eight years to earn his ranks, which only require he hold office three times. Most troops have six month terms of office, so this can be done in eighteen of the ninety-six months he has available. The second thing to understand is the troop members elect the SPL, as the patrol members elect the Patrol Leaders, and should be selecting the scouts best suited to lead the troop, and put on a quality program. The SPL appoints his leaders, much as a President appoints his cabinet, and should be making appointments based on a who is best suited to fulfill the duties of each office he has to fill; the point being becoming a top notch scout gets you office appointments. The third thing to understand is there are projects the Scout Master can assign, is there is a true need for both the project, and the scout to fulfill his rank requirement. Sometimes breaks between advancement help a scout grow, or motivate him to become a better scout so that he will be given an appointment. The bottom line is, take a deep breath, let the program work. The only exception I see is if your Troops program doesn't resemble what I've described, if it doesn't the Troop has issues, and you may want to seek a Boy Scout Troop.

Although I like the idea of focusing on the arrow, after all we are the Order of the Arrow, and are on a quest to "seek the arrow"; however I'm concerned about the down play of Indian Lore in the OA. Our ties to native lore and traditions are a large part of the mystique and allure of the Order of the Arrow, in short our PR and marketing.

There are lots of good answers here, but I think I can clarify things a bit: Yes, the only way for a youth member of BSA to be inducted into the Order of the Arrow is by being elected by his peers, in his troop. This is a carefully designed, well thought out mechanism, with a purpose. The OA was started to put forward outstanding scouts as role models to their peers, and this remains an important part of the order. The idea is to motivate scouts to become more like those scouts who are honored by being inducted into the AO. By having the scouts in each troop decide who best exemplifies the virtues of brotherhood, cheerfulness, and unselfish service, the principles of the OA, scouts both become aware of the standards they most aspire too, and the progress of each scout toward these goals. As some of your troop members are lodge members, likely they temper this judgment, when voting, with the expectation that the scout in question will, or will not, take the obligations of the order, and the commitments that go with those, seriously. The Order of the Arrow does recognize scouts for who they have became, and what they have done, and scouts are elected on this premise. However, troop members who are also OA members, know scouts are not only elected for what they have done, but also for what they will be expected to do. Many scouts see nothing more then a cool patch and sash, and opportunities to have fun and socialize; and although inducted, never truly become members of the Order of the Arrow. In short, a desire to be elected into the Order of the Arrow drives scouts to be better scouts, better men, and holds them to a ridged standard. The scouts actions are judged by his fellows, to determine if he meets this standard, and will continue to grow well beyond these expectations. Your son should speak with senior scouts in his troop, and ask in what ways he can better himself, how he grow to meet this lofty standard. With all due respect, the best place for you in this is on the sideline. Share these insights with your son, and let him handle things.