Old_OX_Eagle83

Qwazse, I hear everything your saying, and respect it, but your speaking from your point of view as if it were fact. Consider what items are administered by the Unit, District, and/or Council "Advancement Committee/Chair": Yep, nearly every one of the recognition items, awards and advancement. Yes, I do know "The National Court of Honor" and some outside orgs admin some items, but that has no relevance to the discussion. The Venture/Venturing distinction only mattered when BSA did have a troop program for the older scouts; it's long since dead and gone. Rather then discussing "if use of the official uniform would benefit the program" we're having a meaningless discussion about distinctions that make zero difference in anything. I keep getting the feeling that you think I'm looking at the question form the outside, and perhaps that's a product of the way I started the discussion. I'm in no way new to the program, I oversaw my council's pilot, seventeen or eighteen years ago, and have not only served as a Crew Adviser, but trained a fair amount of them. Currently, as it relates to this discussion, I'm a founding member of my Charter Org's crew, where I'm the CC, and also serve as Commissioner for another crew. I keep watching the struggles of crews, and wonder how we can reshape things to improve our program. At face value the new program looks fantastic, but only time will tell its worth. Both of the crews I'm involved with have custom t-shirts they were with whatever is appropriate to the activity in question. I hope to see the new diamond shaped recognition devices sewn on the t-shirts, but I'm not convinced that will work. For the record I didn't like the military feel to the ribbons and medals. Cost aside, I am a fan of the official uniform, as it fosters a feeling of membership in the scouting movement.

I hate those Tot in Chit and Fire em Chip patches, and not only for the pocket flap shape. The pocket flap shape encourages wear in the incorrect location, but putting that aside the patch is pointless. The actual card is required for any activity, as anyone can just buy the patch, and who is going to be chopping wood of building fires in field uniform? This is just one more pointless patch to clutter the uniform; no wonder the other scouting orgs have such fun at our expense. ... excess insignia is a bad thing.

You've got a lot going on in your brief post, to make sure I follow let me restate: As an IH, who is also the Troops acting CC, and a DL with the pack your concerned the PLC has neglected to plan activities either based around recruiting, or friendly with Webelo visitation. To further compound things you have a new SM, who has not used his influence with the PLC to make recruiting a priority? Is that roughly what's happening? If my read is correct the choices being made may not be the best ones, but that isn't to say anything is broke. I get that your frustrated, and your brain is possibly overheating from wearing so many hats BTW, hat off the CC hat soon, that way your new CC and SM can support each other as they learn, and hopefully form a strong partnership. Ok, lets chuck all the hats off but IH (I assume your the Charter Org Head). From the Charter Org point of view here are the questions to ask: 1. Are all my units healthy? 2. Are my units supporting each other (not the same as feeding every scout)? 3. Are my unit leaders communicating? 4. Is the charter or serving all the youth it has planned to serve (Church, school, community - varies)? Summary: Do we have a shared vision of success; a plan to achieve the vision; and leadership in place to carry out the plan, who are communicating and have the required support/resources? Do remember you have to give your leaders time to develop, youth and adult, and this will require some trial and error under the watchful eye of the Charter Org, Unit Commissioner, and DE; I dope all three of these players are In place, and everyone in question is trained for the position they hold.

Qwqzse, you like splitting hairs. Awards are a part of advancement, and the distinction between Venture Scout and Venturing no longer has any relevance. Returning to the actual discussion in progress ... If we're trying to embrace the traditional methods of scouting in the Venture program, which is what I see happening, and we're placing an emphasis on advancement, wouldn't uniform use ne an deal way to support this program change? Yes, some crews do have uniforms that will support wearing the new insignia, but most I'm familiar with use a t-shirt, which won't work will with the new insignia.

With the new super councils a council strip means little, I think Stosh has the right idea. Once uniform, always uniform, right? I still have my red and whites from when I was a cub... I wonder how they'd look on a tan shirt?

Qwqzse, I appreciate the offer, but I have no shortage of patches for my right pocket, but rarely sew them on. I typically cut small pony tail holders in half and sew them to the top edge of temps, so I can change patches when I feel like it. Typically I either wear the temp from my most recent event, or choose something to spark scout interest in a location or activity. Of late I've been wearing my Kodiak Staff patch, as we just wrapped op a course, and I want to promote the program.

My question isn't about what we have done, but how the new program will impact uniforming for Ventures. With actual ranks being added, and a marriage between program and advancement being put into place, as well as a move to traditional scouting program vehicles and delivery methods, it stands to reason that uniforming is now an important topic. My question is will these changes cause BSA to remove the "choose your own uniform" policy it has use for the past sixteen years.

We should attempt to follow uniform guidelines, to set the correct example, and enable uniforming to function as a "method of scouting". "A Scout is Obedient", which means we should attempt to follow uniform guidelines while working to have them clarified, corrected, or changed, where we don't agree with them. With this having been said, BSA has created several messes, like mentor pins, something every scouter is very proud of, which are designated as non-uniform wear. Another great one is the totin-chit and Firem-Chip patches, which are shaped like a pocket flap, but meant to be worn in the temp position "on the packet". I would never call a scouter out on uniform wear, although I might make sure the scouter knows how and were to wear an item on the uniform; sometimes people just don't know. On the other hand, our unit does make it clear that our scouts and scouters, when representing the unit, will follow uniform guidelines. I do educate unit members on correct uniforming, and how to tackle pesky insignia attachment, and uniform alterations. I don't bust chops, I support and educate. Before anyone asks, my unit uniform is perfectly in keeping with all current uniform policies, and I do maintain a separate uniform for my non-unit position.

The new Venture Scout advancement program has four actual cloth rank patches. Early on in the program revamp discussions there was talk of changing from crews choosing whatever uniform they want, to making the “official uniform†a required part of the program. Will Venture Crews now be required to use the official uniform? I don’t know what the end product of the uniform discussion was, but I home we all will be wearing the official uniform. The uniform is a proven method of scouting, tried and true, and in my opinion, just want the Venture program needs. BTW, I love the new changes, the program now feels and flows like a scouting program.

There are three options: 1. Sew it on by hand 2. Sew the pocket shut 3. Remove the pocket, sew on the patch, sew the pocket back on. The answer to your question is: I'm an adult member, I don't earn ranks, so I don't sew them on. The correct question should be "how can my scout sew a rank patch on a shirt without sewing the pocket shut?"

King, I was aware of the earlier releases, but was looking a the current one when making my post. I can certainly see why people would be upset if those already working towards Webelo or AOL had to switch to the new requirements in mid-stream. Keep in mind AOL and Webelo were both a combined 12 month program not that many years ago. It's also important to recall the entire Cub program was once a three year program, in which you had to earn Bobcat, Wolf, and Bear, before working on Webelo, and you had to earn Webelo before beginning work on the AOL. All the ranks, including AOL, are very possible under the new plan. I'm also concerned about some of the "Duty of God" wording, but I'm sure a finial polish is in the works. It's also important to keep things in perspective, advancement is one method of scouting, and not the purpose of scouting, and neither one of aims of scouting, nor it's purpose. Ranks are the carrot held in front of the horse to keep it moving at a good pace in the correct direction.

An important item to mention here is a council may authorize a special patch, or patches, to be worn by members within the council borders. If the council officially authorizes the patch, and placement, it is uniform. With the most recent shake up on insignia approval guidelines and procedures this may have changed. I know many years ago it took the Council Committee recommending the insignia to the SE who gave it a thumbs up or down. I'm not sure is the SE had to obtain approval from another person or group within BSA. My point is there is a way for the council to approval insignia for use within the council; the OP's patch my be official. Our district has a patch, that has fallen into disuse, but was worn by adult scouters in the district beginning some time between 1932 and 1944, until about three years ago. Our patch was approved upon issue, as I was told by our SE in the 80's, who said it is official. Since this time we've went through a council merger, but our district lines and name have not changed. I'm going to speak with our current SE to get his take on issuing these patches again, and doubt I'll get resistance as most of our districts do have a district patch.

In reviewing the Cub changes I’d say the assessment is dead on. After a very careful review I only find one change I have any issue with, not having to earn Webelo for Arrow of Light, although I can see why this change was made. King, you’re reaction appears to stem form the fact that the program you’ve known and used is changing, and not from an objection to the new program. The only thing that’s constant with BSA is change, and I’ve seen many. If it was up to me I’d go back to cubs earning ranks sequentially, and remove age specific dens. Why do I say this, because it’s what I know, experienced, and used. You knew, used, and experienced, something different, and in a decade, or two, it will happen again. This is all part of staying relevant. Look wide, see past the difficulties that will crop up in the very brief period of transition.

Fantastic story, we need to recognize those who support the program, and provide positive role models.

Essentially we have the franchise on Youth Development programs in the USA; what would be the advantage of stepping away from that? I fail to see how our Congressional Charter brings anything but benefits.

We embrace the best of both worlds, rotating between our local camp and an away camp every other year.

Welcome! It's great to see scouts stay with troops after becoming an adult, scouts have an easier time relating to people closer in age.

Just fold the sash over like an "s" at shoulder level and drop a roll of stitching at the top and bottom of the "s", will take less time then this post. I miss the days when scouts had to know how to sew to earn Second Class.

Honestly, a scout who's hurting this bad for service time has bigger issues. Over the past four years the average number of service hours, per scout, per year, in our troop was just under 100 hours a year ... I can't imagine this is abnormal.

The best thing that could happen to summer camps is a removal of merit badge programs.

No, OA service, and especially that performed as part of the Ordeal is to be "unselfish service". If service time is used for advancement it is no longer unselfish. This is not a SM's opinion thing, if Ordeal service is used for rank the candidate is failing the spirit of the Ordeal, and disrespecting the customs and traditions of the Order of the Arrow.

I found an easy mentor pin solution. I cut out a 3 inch round piece of leather, covered it with green felt the color of scout pants, and attached a button loop. I put my mentor pins on my leather temp patch sized disc wear it as a temp patch.

Yes, they can do this, although this isn't the example they should be setting. Decide where you want to be, and go there.

Dens are the building blocks of patrols and should learn to camp and function cooperatively.

Were exact expectations communicated to the officer at the outset of his term, and did he meet these? If he met the clearly defined, and clearly communicated expectations for his position, he gets credit, if not he doesn't. As pointed out above your SPL appears to have a handle on things, and this young man works for the SPL, not you. It's best to have frequent SMC's for office performance through the year to attempt to keep things on track, but in the end the scout has to own the position, and fulfill his duties, and on one can do that for him