Old_OX_Eagle83

That is a very interesting statistic, but I'm not as surprised as perhaps I should be. I've been a member of the Order of thirty years, and have had the distinct pleasure of belonging to two fantastic lodges, and one not so great lodge ... my current one. Being a longtime member I've seen a great deal of change in the order, some of it good, most not. When I was a scout the Order of the Arrow was "The Honor Camper Society", and was a program of the camping committee. Somewhere along the line there was a genius idea to restyle the order as scouting's "National Honor Society", and take the program away from the camping committee, and shift the focus out of the camps. The result of these changes, epic failure. The order is a thing of the outdoors, and is a camp based program, according to the orders founder Dr. Goodman. From the start the orders purpose was to recognize, and encourage good camping skills, while supporting the camp. When i was a youth member Order of the Arrow activities were about fellowship, leadership development, and personal growth; today they come across as frat parties without liquor. From the very beginning the order was cloaked in mystery, and that has always appealed to youth. Ceremonies were conducted in the solitude of the far reaches of camp property, where new members were welcomed into a "circle of brothers which widened to receive them". Does this resemble the order today? Perhaps if the order looked for like this it would regain its appeal. Here's another change. Each unit used to have an election quota, based on membership, and only a select few were elected each year. Only those scouts with exceptional camping, and leadership, skills were selected for membership by their peers. Now all eligible scouts are rubber stamped, so much for honoring those who truly stand out. No one wants to hear another story of how things were back when, but the thing it the Order of the Arrow was strong, and viable, back when. We study history to learn from our mistakes, doesn't that apply here? Klamachpin Gentgeen I used to be a Bear ...

Gonzo1: First I'd like to say thank you for your past, and ongoing, service to this great nation. Please don't construe anything I say as disrespect to you, when your county called, you answered, and that commands my respect. I understand what you're questioning, and it's good that we ask these type of questions, and discuss them as scouters. I've asked myself is a flag retirement something for just older scouts; is a flag retirement to much of a downer for a campfire; and are we making flag retirements too common. These are weighty questions. I was unable to serve in the armed forces due to a physical deformity. However, my forefathers did, from my father who is a Marine, to my ancestor who served under General Clark in the American Revolution. I was raised to respect Old Glory, to be a good citizen, and to love my country. As a scout leader I see it as my obligation to instill these traits in today's youth; it is this obligation that made me ask these questions. I laid my doubts to rest by speaking to the scouts, and asking their opinions. Although the cubs did struggle with overlong retirements, they were moved by the experience, becoming better citizens, and having greater respect for the flag, and what it represents. A shorter retirement of a single flag is an easy solution. It is true that a flag retirement sets a somber mood for a campfire closing, and is not the best choice for every campfire; in my opinion you have to consider the purpose of the campfire in question. As far as the frequency of retirements, they should not be a common part of a troop's program, be held apart, as something truly special. As far as who may retire the colors, if you read the entire portion of the code that flag protocol is listed in, it is clear that the code is listing those other than the military who may retire The Flag of the United States. It goes without saying that our servicemen, and women, are the guardians of Old Glory, and all she represents. This is my opinion, take it for what it is.

No official unifor jackets? The information below is directly from the insignia guide. Jackets and Their Insignia Multicolored jackets in nylon, wool, and poplin are available for optional wear by youth members and adult leaders. The universal emblem should be worn on the left pocket or, in case of a jacket without chest pockets, in the same area. The Philmont bull emblem is especially designed for the red wool jac-shirt to be sewn on the left side above the pocket. On all jackets the Philmont Scout Ranch, Philmont Training Center, or high-adventure base emblems may be worn centered on the right pocket or in the same relative position if there is no pocket. The Order of the Arrow has adopted the jac-shirt as its official jacket, and members may wear the �6-inch national Order of the Arrow patch centered on the back. The large Philmont, NESA, jamboree, National Camping School, Scout�master Award of Merit, and international par�ticipant emblems are approved to be worn on the back of the jacket. Only one such emblem may be worn at a time. The Venture/Varsity �letter may be worn on the center of the right side of the red or blaze nylon or poplin jacket. In all cases, the lightweight jacket is an alternate for the jac-shirt, and this insignia may be worn on it in the same way.

Sorry Moose, I'm being thick headed today ... "missed it by that much * " *Insert picture of football stadium here

"Hispanics hate camping", I've never noticed this, and have been in units with several Hispanic Scouts. Of course I don't tend to profile scouts ...

BDPT00 wrote: ** Then you're clearly not on my training staff or one of my commissioners. If you're in a position to represent the BSA to other Scouts/Scouters, you should be in proper uniform. I won't mess with you if you're not one of mine, but I'll correct your uniform if you're in my charge. BDPT00 BDPT00, just as clearly youre not on my staff, or one of the commissioners in my charge. If you were Id instruct you in the purpose of the program, and the importance of recognizing the accomplishments of the scout, and his scouter mentor. That simple mentor pin not only makes that scouter aware of the impact of this contributions, but also makes it more likely hell continue to contribute. Additionally, that simple pin will instill confidence in the units program, with youth, parents, and volunteers. There is even the added benefit of inspiring youth to greater accomplishments, both the young man who presented the pin, and those who would place another beside it! Mess with me, please, that gave me a good chuckle. Do us all a favor, get the starch out of your corset, and put your focus back on the program. Proper uniform wear. I was visiting with a unit not long ago when I witnessed what I consider proper uniform wear. The youth were working on the tracking merit badge in an adjacent wooded area, and I was speaking with the CC and SM in the parking lot. The scouts emerged from the woods, shirts half untucked, dirt liberally applied, headgear sweat soaked and askew, evidence of a recent visit to the brier patch in their socks, a half torn off patch visible on one scout, and one scout even using his uniform shirt tail to apply pressure to a cut. Now that is correct uniform wear, and what Norman Rockwell should have painted. The scouts where not ashamed, but proud, and we all soon shared the scouts smiles. (This message has been edited by Old_OX_Eagle83)

All told, including District and Council events, about 16 weekends a year. Scouting is all about outing in my opinion. Most of us also do some trainings, and OA events, personally I hit over 20 weekends a year.

Packsaddle: A REAL favor would be to prohibit anyone weighing over 250 pounds from flying. I estimate the lines would be substantially shortened. Now we're going to discriminate based on weight? I'm six-foot-one and over 250 ... although I'm a little flabby now, at one time I weighed more, but had no body fat to speak of, all muscle. What would be the point of your suggestion? I'm going over the terrorist attacks, and can't recall where anything brought on the planes was used ... do these searches actually accomplish anything, other than create an appearance of addressing the issue, and foster an illusion of security? (This message has been edited by Old_OX_Eagle83) Papadaddy: My childrens beloved grandmother passed away, a thousand miles away, are they not going to be allowed to attend to funeral? The problem is not one of weight, or age, it's one of over reaction, and draconian measures. (This message has been edited by Old_OX_Eagle83)

BDPT00 is correct. However, let me say that Id leave it right where the young man put it. Typically Im big on following uniform regs, but in this case, Id where it on my left pocket flap with pride. What I suggest is against policy, but I doubt anyone would ever say a word about it.

I dont see this post as causing trouble. I carried a fixed blade knife as a youth member until my council passed a rule against it. Why carry one, good question? The cool factor undoubtedly played into for me, mine was a Buck Pathfinder, with the black fold over sheaf. Are sheaf knives more useful, not for most tasks. Are sheaf knives less useful, this is often the case based on size, not the fixed blade. Are sheaf knives more dangerous, not by design. Sheaf knives cant fold up on you, but can come out of the sheaf and cause injury; these pretty well balance out. The sheaf knifes bad rap is a product of all the uses a young mans imagination can come up with. Many scouts are responsible, some just cant resist taking out the horde of ninjas, orcs, and, all around bad guys they see in every tree, wall, or anything else the knife can be thrown at, or jabbed into. Yea, I took out a few phantom desperados in my day, poor trees. Has anyone ever tried throwing a scout pocket knife; it works better closed, lol

John-in-KC has the right of it, regarding the steps to follow, and the attitude this should be approached with. Being a district scouter sometimes I look past the important first steps.(This message has been edited by Old_OX_Eagle83)

I read somewhere that when Lyndon Johnson was President the wealthy, the upper 10% of our society, provided 20% of our tax revenue. Now that number is near 4.5% of our tax revenue. Things have shifted drastically, and for the worse. I dont buy the Trickle Down Economics bunk, its just that. If these numbers are accurate, and I suspect theyre close, this puts the middle class providing 95.5% of the tax revenue. We pride ourselves as a nation on how well we take care of our poor, and that is noble, but we know the lower class are not contributing to this revenue. Of course, whats ironic, is the lower class lives better than the middle class who is paying for their benefits. This system is way out of whack, and our elected officials wont change it, as theyre campaigns are funded by the wealthy, and kept in the office by the votes of those who are getting a free ride on us, and get wealthy off the system.

CalicoPenn wrote: So now I'm wondering - why was all of this just fine under Bush II, Clinton, Bush I, Reagan, Carter, etc. and is now all of a sudden not fine under Obama? If you think this cynicism, I'll wear that badge with honor. No, not cynicism, I've been an Obama supported from day one. I'm just disgusted with our goverment in general. This type of thing has never been fine, and you don't want my thoughts on bush, Jr, or Sr, lol.

I wish this gentleman the best. I plan on sharing his story with the scouts in my troop, as well as the link, so that they can continue to be motivated

I think this unit is a symbol of the need to return to our core scouting program. However, the core program elements have to be packaged in a way that will appeal to current youth. Were drifting away from our purpose, and core methods of scouting. I see example, after example, of units recognizing this, and attempting to address this issue. I wonder why national turns a blind eye, are they caught up in a corporate numbers and dollars game?

Eamonn, perhaps the way I made my post was not the best choice to make my point. Let me come at it another way. Our thread is about sin, but sin is a component of a narrow group of the belief systems our scouts practice. Our discussion, and our programs, should take a wider approach to the topic of values, instead focusing on doing the right thing. Sin is the word you choose, likely because its the one used in your belief system to address this type of topic, but your posts do touch on the larger picture. Old Ox wrote: "Sin is a very subjective thing, one not uniform to all belief systems. To even entertain discussion of this topic with scouts crosses a line we as leaders dont cross." Eamonn wrote: I couldn't disagree more. I'm very much a run of the mill ordinary little fellow. Not really expert in anything and certainly not an expert in religion or the different religions of the world. By volunteering to be a Scout Leader, I set myself up to be and act as an example to the youth members who I serve. All this in an organization that is about doing what it can to teach ethical choices to the youth members. In order to do this I fall back on my values and my beliefs. While at times maybe when things go very wrong I do act as a policeman, judge and jury. I don't impose my religious views on others, still I don't shy away from them. To do so would be wrong. While I don't claim to know a lot about other religions, I respect the religion and the people who follow or practice it. I most definitely don't see discussing right from wrong or sin with the youth we serve as in any way crossing the line. My values and beliefs are very much a part of me and a reason why I volunteered in the fist place. Ea. Eamonn, what I was getting at is we are not an organization of one religion, or even a group of closely related belief systems. We need to take care in presenting our program so that the message reaches all our scouts, and in a positive way. Im sure this is what you do, your posts speak for you, and your concern for the youth in your charge.

Hmm, like the seminar talks. All required merit badges ... not sure I'm crazy about that. Something here kinda sticks in my craw. The trial to eagle, be design, requires the scout to be self motivated, demonstrate leadership, demonstrate organizational skills, and test his limits. This feels like a spoon feeding process. When I earned eagle yea here comes the walked to school, barefoot, uphill both ways, story Eagle scout used to be difficult, and 100% on you. It wasnt expected that you would reach eagle, it was like the holy grail! When you met an eagle scout you were like wow, youre an eagle scout! I was the first to earn eagle at my charter org, in a troop with a 25 year history. Eagle scout was truly something special, and the young men who earned it were truly special. Today the Eagle Scout rank is common, and so are the Eagle Scouts. Maybe we are too concerned with quantity, and not enough with quality?

I find two things particularly disturbing about this, and the first one is kinda ironic. 1. Yea, I knew the CIA had been running similar ops for years, but this type of operation was always very discreet. Things have gone beyond open, to brazen. Running this type of op openly invites reprisals. Are we asking for another 9-11? 2. The amount of control being shifted from Congress, to the Chief Executive. This is precisely what our constitution was set up to prevent. Sure, it can be argued that the Constitution is 220 years old, and does not allow for the way things work in the world we now live in, and there may be some truth in that. However, the mechanism to correct such flaws is amendment, but be honoring laws which are invalid on the face, because they exceed limits defined by the constitution, such as the Patriot Act. Amendment is difficult be design, for our own well being.

Aye!

A badge fell off that you sewed on, and you were forced to reschedule the BOR. Rule about pinning on the badge, no BSA doesnt have any such rule that Im aware of. I dont know your troop traditions, but this is not the way Id suggest doing things. If its a big deal that the badge is pinned on because of an unforeseen event, Id hand you a needle and thread and say let us know when youre done repairing your uniform. Of course, it could take you 5 mins, or 5 years to sew it on, that ball would be in your court. Every unit is different. Although I would not have handled things the way your troop did, it does not make the troop's decision wrong. Eagle92 wrote: I would LOVE, repeat LOVE to have youth on the T-2-1 BORs again Eagle, some of us still do this. The Advancement Chair, or designee, acts as moderator for the senior scouts doing to BOR. Ive never seen the AC, of designee, say more than hello, and thank you for your time.(This message has been edited by Old_OX_Eagle83)

Sin is a very subjective thing, one not uniform to all belief systems. To even entertain discussion of this topic with scouts crosses a line we as leaders dont cross. This is the province of parents and religious leaders. As far as program, its important that we remain are of, and sensitive too, the restrictions and tenements of all belief systems, and shape our program to not run afoul of any of them. Abrahamic belief systems include sin in greatly varied forms, most others do not. The differences in what is sin is massive when comparing someone who practices Hasidic Judaism, and a Unitarian Universalist, or a follow of Sunni Islamic beliefs to a follower of the Eastern Orthodox Doctrine; all Abrahamic belief systems. To compound discussion of sin further, try explain the concept of sin to a Zoroastrian or Theravada scout. My point is were into something here that should not be a scout program discussion, except in as far as acknowledging the need to use broad strokes when dealing with matters of faith with scouts, or scouters. The definition of A Scout is Reverent, right out of the Boy Scout Handbook sets the scope, and tone, for handling religion as a program element.

Our Chief Spy, the CIA Director is named Secretary of Defense. Our commanding General in the middle-east is named to replace the CIA Director. The government confirms construction is under way on a covert CIA air base, somewhere in the middle east, tasked with running missions, on the sovereign soil of nations, who limit or forbid our operations. Admittedly, these missions will largely be securing, and/or eliminating, suspected terrorists. Who else is disturbed by this series of events? The CIA, which is beyond the control of Congress, is taking on a clear military role. We have our chief spy in charge of the military; our top general leading the CIA on military type operations; were actively planning on violating the sovereignty of other nations; and we are carrying out an active campaign to assassinate suspected terrorists, who will not be allowed trial. Here I thought Bush exceeded the powers of his office, abused his authority, and was in the process of setting himself up as the next King George do we now have Emperor Obama in the making?

Hats off to Cimarron, I hope he pulls it off.

As a youth I tought Wilderness Survival at summer camp for several years, it's amazing just how little you need, and what nature can provide. I think we have a generation that believes "roughing it" is not having a microwave, and cell phone gps/map app on a camp out.

The adult recognition program, like any other, is not without opportunities for improvement. However, like all BSA recognition programs, its designed to encourage people to step up, do the right thing, and then put that person forward as a positive example. Why no CC knot, I dont know. However, I will so no committee position as a knot. The Pack Trainer is not technically a committee position, but a program position. The Cub Scouter Knot is what you should be working toward. Basement Dweller, You may want to take a moment to consider the effectiveness of your communication, as I don't think you came accross the way you intended.