Old_OX_Eagle83

I was hoping for positive changes, and am not disappointed. BSA did good on this one.

EagleScout441, thank you for the reminder about Venturing’s BSA Winterfest, I didn’t intend to exclude it when discussing national events. Qwazse, we’re going to have to agree to disagree on this. However, I don’t think the numbers attending an event is the key criteria in recognizing it’s importance as a key National Event. When looking at numbers it’s important to note, as you pointed out, National Order of the Arrow Conference is a mass gathering of a very select group, the scout’s recognized as their fellows as exemplifying the Scout Oath and Law, those who are looked up to my their fellows as models scouts. Following this recommendation, these scouts underwent an arduous test to prove they were worthy, and undertook a binding obligation of servant leadership. Having completed the above, the scout then earned the right to attend the National Order of the Arrow Conference, where he will pay to spend a week learning how to be a more effective servant leader, so he my strengthen the scouting program, his church, and community. What grants a scout the right to attend Jambo, oh yea, writing a check. What do scouts do at Jambo, oh yea, have fun and work on personal advancement. If you’re going to compare numbers it’s important to view things in the correct. I’ll restate my original statement, both Jambo and NOAC are important BSA national events, and deserve to be recognized as such.

I’m not sure I follow the intended purpose is in making reference to the definition of slang terms, and jargon, listed in what were once useful, if cumbersomely bulky reference volumes, now devoid of any redeeming quality , housing such gems as Tweaking, and aint … which Microsoft Word correctly fails to identify as words. We’re comparing the two big national scout gatherings, conventions, which by tradition, and design, are intentionally distinguishable. The key isn’t how they’re different, and the different purposes of each event, but how they are similar. These two events are the only two single session national scout gatherings in this nation; as such, both are clearly defined as national events, and thus the insignia for each should be able to be worn on the uniform in the place reserved for national event insignia.

T2Eagle, everything you say is correct. The issue here is when a Boy Scout troop is using cots on all camp outs. At summer camp, or any place where you're staying in structures, or floorless tents set up for you, and having your gear and attendees delivered to the door, cots are a good choice ... but these scenarios do not represent typical scout camping. When winter camping I use a closed cell foam pad, with an emergency blanket over it, works very well.

Eagle92, neither correlation is shocking. I find the units with the best outdoor programs do it right, because they are proud of their outdoor skills. During my time as SM our troop averaged 14-16 tent camping events a year (not including patrol events).

Yes, no hesitation on that answer. I waited 25 years to take Wood Badge, there was always a reason not to ... Wood Badge helped my become much more efficient in what I do as a volunteer, I used to spend 25-30 hours a week on scouting, now it's 15-20, and I accomplish much more in that time. Wood Badge also gave me an amazing insight into patrol mechanics, and how decisions, personalities, and outside events impact all aspects of patrol function. Not even as a youth leader did I have this type of insight. Frankly, it didn't hurt that I've never had such fun in scouting as an adult! The experience is different for everyone, I'm very analytical, a seasoned leader, who has practiced, and kept his scout skills shard for many years. At the time I took Wood Badge I was changing hats from ADC/Trainer, to SM ... Wood Badge set the tone perfectly. I used to be a Bear ...

If that Eagle Scout would like a rank patch, I have one I can send him.

Twocubdad I don't see the accommodation distinction from Jamboree, except scouts sleep in tents that typically have been erected for then, on cots, with mattresses. The programs are similar, except NOAC has more hands on training in AIA, and more training sessions; in place of merit badge classes (different, but similar). NOAC has more of a leadership and skill development focus, as compared to Jambo's personal advancement focus. Activities are similar, scout skills, team building, with fun activities designed to inspire and motivate. The themes are somewhat different, as they should be. Attendance numbers are similar, although NOAC attendees are typically a few years older on the average. NOAC typically is more reasonable on price, but that's mostly because Council groups add a bunch of unneeded bloat to Jambo trips, that jacks up the price. Have you attended both events?

I hear ya Moose. one of the reason's I reacted is because this is news to me. I've been part of this district for a long time. I just took off the SM hat, but prior to putting it on, I was ADC in charge of Roundtables, and only knew of one unit who did this sort of thing. I find it strange that things have shifted so much in three years. Our troop strictly prohibits cots, and air mattresses. Heck, this past year at summer camp our guys even choose not to use cots. Typically Our scouts use the ultra thin Thermarest type pads, yoga mats, or just a ground cloth.

Although I don’t want to get the discussion of topic, I felt the need to respond. My intent was not to slight GSA; I was just pointing out a difference in the traditional programs of each organization. My involvement with GSA was between 1990 and 2002. The troop GSA troop in question disbanded fourteen years ago, and to my knowledge the adult leaders are no longer active. I can, and should you still be interested, will, provide the details on the Troop as a personal message. I can’t speak for other GSA Troops, but know about how this operated. This troop strongly favored social activities, with the only regular events, summer camp aside, being a sock hop, a formal dance, and yearly trip to the local amusement park. Outside of summer camp, I can only remember two times the troop actually camped, once in cabins with bunks, the other time in rv’s owned by parents. I tried, as a parent, co-leader, and later member of the parent committee, to get the troop to invest in camping gear. My suggestion to invest in camping gear was essentially taken as a joke, and when the group realized I was in earnest, met with anger. I was told, under no uncertain terms, all funds the troop raised were to be used for a Big Trip to Disney World, and I had no place trying to disrupt this plan. To the kids credit, they did got to Disney World, although the youth had no input in planning the trip. I’m still entirely unsure how Disney World has anything to do with scouting, but that’s water under the bridge. I assume by your response not all Girl Scout Troops are like this, and this is encouraging. If there are Girl Scout leaders out there running quality outdoor programs, I apologize to you, and support what you’re doing with all my heart. I still want to hear what troops use cots; something that apparently the Girl Scouts no longer allow; good choice GSA! Cots are in fact rough on tents, but also just not conducive to scout camping.

Does your troop sleep on cots? I was on site for the last roundtable, but in an OA meeting, so wasn’t aware of what the program topics were. I’m the former SM of our district’s largest troop, and am still involved as UC for our Charter Org, and since my change in responsibilities don’t always attend the Boy Scout Roundtable. My wife, who is the troop’s ASM adviser for the first year scout patrol, had attended the boy scout roundtable program. My son, who was also with us, is a Den Chief and Lodge Officer, so bounces back and forth between the Cub Roundtables, and Chapter meetings. While we’re driving home we started discussing what was covered in the various programs. After my son and I made a few comments, I could tell be the look on my wife’s face something was bothering her. After a few moments she blurted out, “Our Skill was how to effectively use cots on winter camp outsâ€Â; I literally choked on my coffee; but my son rescued me saying “Did you go to the Girl Scout meeting my mistake?â€Â. My wife went on to explain she had questioned if this presentation was for cabin camping, or “Winter Camp†a summer camp like program, put on in the winter, with traditional canvas wall tents and cots, but was told, “no, why do you ask?â€Â. As discussion progressed it became clear that all the troops present, except two, always sleep on cots, in tents, even on weekend camp outs. When asked how they handled this if they had to hike into a camp site, the response was we don’t camp in placed like this. I agree with my son, I did see this in the decade I was a GSA volunteer, but not over my 25 years with BSA. Is it just me, or is this just ridiculous? Will scouts be packing Xboxes, and leaders pulling RV’s next? I for one see scouting as a thing of the outdoors, where you rough it, making sacrifices of comfort to get to places where you don’t find retiree’s camped with 20 foot travel trailers, and we should be constantly training and preparing for true scout camping.

Ouch, not a good first impression. If my child were crossing over to the troop in question I would not have ran for the hills after this fiasco, but would have scheduled a sit down with Troop Leadership to make sure they were fully aware of the issues, and already had a plan in place to resolve them. The only deal breaker I pulled from your post was SM appointed officers; This completely undermines the essential elements of the BSA Troop, and Patrol programs. Honestly, had I heard of this issue, I would have had a private word with the SM, verifying he appointed the officers, and this would be the plan going forward. If the group, I didn't say troop because it would not be one in this case, intended to keep having the SM appoint the SPL and PL's, I would have thanked him for the invitation, packed my den up, and took them home. Actual Boy Scout troops could be located after you got home.

I understand the point your making Qwazse, but the question I was raising is: why is one national event allowed the distinction of unique patch placement, in a place on the uniform reserved for national/world events, when events of nearly identical description, and composition, are not? Local events, and activities, are given a different place on the uniform. We could get into why each area of the uniform is designated for the stated set of insignia, but that's an entirely different discussion.

EagleScout441, the question is "how do we get this policy changed". I've never encountered anyone adverse to this change.

Desertrat77 posted: Past: OA was a society of honor campers; it wasn't easy to be elected. It was also a service organization. Present: OA is neither. Desert, those two things are cause and effect. The OA has lost much of its appeal due to ease of obtaining membership, and a rebranding as "A National Honor Society". A mere change in name caused a huge shift in perception, from an organization based on skills, and passing on that skills, to a group who is honoring inductees.

levi.bowhunter, you can find sash patterns out there, but I would not use one. From my prospective, I prefer to own what I make. When I beaded my original sash I simply looked at my embroidered one, and drew what I saw on graph paper. My version of the legend was made creating my own pictographs for each key segment (I designed it as a prop that would keep me on track in the ceremony). The new sash I'm beading is base on the old one, sans the legend, tweaked to work better in lazy stich.

There are many good posts here explaining what the Order is, has been, and should be. I don’t see the value in restating what the order is, or does. There is one thing I’d like to clarify: The Order of the Arrow is not now, nor has it ever been a secret society. The Order was by intention, knowing it would appeal to adolescent males, cloaked in a pretense of secrecy. Nothing about the Order has ever been concealed for any adult with a true desire to know and understand what the does and what it’s about. In recent years the illusion of secrecy has been watered down by the ease of accessing information on the internet, and by those who misunderstand why everything should be kept from scouts who may be inducted. Simply put, nothing make a young person what to do, or be part of, something then being told he isn’t allowed to. By trying to meet the criteria of membership the youth becomes a stronger scout, a leader in his unit. If you ask me that’s a whole lot of motivation for no effort, but not letting the youth learn about the order and its ceremonies until they are inducted … pure genius.

You may be correct Qwazse, I may be incorrectly assuming my scout carrier was the norm, then and now.

Eagle 92, I agree on our High Adventure Bases as well. I'm aware of uniform policy and right side patch placement; I just don't understand why NOAC and High Adventure base insignia are not allowed placement above the right pocket. A National program is a national program, isn't it? I've been to three NOAC's, did two Philmont Treks, and been to Northern Tier, and just fail to see how these events do not have the same importance as a National Jamboree. I like that you point out that just "one" temp patch can be worn on the right pocket; it makes me nuts when people wear multiple temps on the right pocket, or wear temps on both right and left pocket. For clarification, my post isn't an argument for wearing more insignia; it's an argument to have all National Programs correctly recognized. Eagle Scout 441, I'm not aware of any lack of clarity on what male scouts or leaders are allowed to wear above the right pocket. I have to admit the rebel in me is tempted to follow your suggestions, but as a Lodge Advisor I have to be very aware of the example I set.

I can tell you why I did, but I suspect the answer is not only different individually, but based on generation. When I was a youth, no one knew when the last Eagle was in our troop, or even if there had been one before. I was active on the council level, as a camp staffer, and Arrowman, and only knew of a hand full of active youth eagle scouts, it was just that rare. I wanted the challenge, I wanted to see what I was made of, to set myself apart. I hear people say “an Eagle is an Eagle, but that’s poppycock. With the tools and tech available today, requirements made easier, and the “no fail†policy for boards of reviews, Eagle has become easy. When I got my Eagle I felt tested, like my scout skills and leadership ability had been proven, and I had earned the right to soar where others only dared to dream. We need to put the teeth back in Eagle, and chuck this “everybody wins†garbage, so our youth may again have a challenge they can truly grow from. The OP mentioned the OA, the same there. Let’s get rid of the “everybody gets in†mentality, and make it select again, so that youth will strive to meet the standard set my their fellows. Scouting has gotten soft, and in doing so stopped teaching the lessons it was intended to teach.

I’ve been involved in scouting, and the Order of the Arrow, for many years. I understand most uniform polices, and the reasoning behind them, however there is one I just can't figure out. NOAC is a national event on par with National Jamboree, so why can’t a NOAC patch be work above the right uniform pocket?

If you’re getting bogged down in all the “who works for who in this volunteer organization†hog-wash, you have larger issues. A unit only functions correctly when, in this order: You have excited youth interested in the program You have the support of a Charter Organization You have a Team of committed parents and volunteers You have a BSA Charter You have trained leadership A scout program is being put on You will notice the only word I underlined is Team, it’s what cements everything together. It sounds like there’s some cracks in your units cement. My two cents is set aside unofficial time, outside of meetings and activities, for the unit Key Three to talk. The conversation should start with agreeing on a shared vision of what the unit should be. If the SM is building a swimming pool, the CC a sky scraper, and the COR a pyramid, what you have is a mess! The next topic is creating an outline on how to get there, and the third deciding who will handle what parts. By the time the discussion is over, and the coffee pot empty, you should be a team working on common goals, set to achieve a shared vision. The key three are COR, CC, and SM; although these three players have varying degrees of authority, that should not come into play. Yea, I know, I went old school on this, and page such and such , of publications this and that, will tell you all about powers and chain of command rubbish … once again, if it comes to that … sit down and have this discussion … as often as needed. Oh yea, forgot the most important part: this is the scouts program, the SM should be presenting the shared vision he and the SPL created, to the COR and CC. If things still don’t work, call your UC without delay; or in absence of a UC, your DC. Do not call your DE, he has other things to deal with. This is only my 2 cents, but it has worked very well in the units I’ve served over the past 25 years. I used to be a Bear Todd

The key is taking off strong and not backing off. Your cubs joined to have fun, give it to them! From my experience the biggest mistake you can make is not meeting, and not having activities because it's winter. You will have to give some thought to likely weather conditions for outdoor activities, but there's plenty of fun to be had indoors when prolonged outdoor actives aren't appropriate of the age groups in question. As far as the holidays, I would not set a meeting on a actual holiday, but short of that, business as usual; don't make the error of not meeting this soon after recruiting.

If memory serves, this young man remains a youth member, regardless of age until is Eagle Award is either approved, or rejected. Again, if I'm recalling correctly he should be registered as a youth unless his award has been signed off on.

Nelson Mandela was perhaps the greatest servant leader of the modern era. This is sad news, but this man has left a legacy that will span the ages.