Old_OX_Eagle83

Looks like it was cleaned up a bit

Pumps for Air Matresses ... I thought I was on the Scouter Forum, not Luxurious RV Getaways ...

So many things to say on this one ... 1. Meeting a requirement does not equate to mastery 2. What is once learned may be forgotten 3. Using a skill, and teaching it are two different things 4. Every group needs a leader 5. The patrol method is based on a group working together to accomplish common goals I've seen this before with Eagles, and likely have been guilty a few times myself. This is "fighter pilot complex". My advice, as an Eagle Scout: this as an opportunity to grow into the new role being contemplated; embrace it.

How does the Charter Org feel about the troops plan to cease operation?

Forcing the issue is simple. The SM should simply drop off a driver info sheet at each committee meeting, with a list of attendees, and say "if you need any additional information for the Tour Pan let me know". Simple enough. The most fun I ever had with this was, due to the ongoing assumption that the SM & ASM's will always drive, we arranged a hike where the drop off an pick up points were different, and told the committee we could not leave vehicles at the drop off. There were work-arounds , but I failed to share those

I'm reading a lot of us and them; that's in the past. The question is what will this new combined pack/den do? Everyone needs to sit down and talk this through, examining what will work best going forward.

Eagle92, thank you for stating the World Crest was an earned award. No one ever believes me when I tell them I earned my world crest

I've never considered having the youth do the tour plans, but I don't see any reason they couldn't.

The key to not only understanding what I’m saying, but how a troop should work, is shockingly found in the SM Handbook. Where each SPL administration starts is with a meeting with the SM, where the SPL’s and the SM’s vision ‘s are forged into a “a shared vision†which becomes the roadmap for the SPL’s term. Where I think we’re splitting hairs is the Scoutmaster’s vision is not for the SPL’s term of office, but is the unit’s long term plan, and one that includes the Charter Org’s expectations, and that of the committee. I did not explain all of this before, as I assumed anyone engaging in this conversation had completed scoutmaster’s training. Before anyone suggests otherwise, this does work. Throughout my tenure as SM I did this with each new SPL, and delivery of a written vision statement was required to be considered for election. The “Shared Vision†statement became the focal point of The Troop Leader Training (yes I know it has a new name don’t recall it offhand). After Troop Leader Training our officers would have a lock in where there would create an outline of how they were going to attempt to accomplish each point of the “shared vision†statement; this outline was used as a roadmap for the PLC over the SPL’s term. The troop I was Scoutmaster of grew to be the largest in our district, as well as the most active. We were, and remain, fully youth ran. All adults do other than provide the youth with the tools they need, is sign checks, and drive scouts to events .. of yea, we do the Tour Plans. I’ve successfully used the same formula of vision statements, training, and an officer created outline that becomes the roadmap as an OA advisor, Crew Advisor, Roundtable Commissioner, and ADC in charge of commissioner training. It works every time, so long as the statements are delivered prior to being allowed to assume an office, and on the date of the assuming office the training and lockin dates are set. This is a program which follows a mantra like this nation: a program of the scouts, for the scouts, by the scouts.

Rick that sounds good, although I enjoyed my Duck

Yet another case of the parents "buying" Eagle. I truly hate when parents pay for the project. A huge part of the project is the budget, fundraising, and how to deal with unexpected issues, including a lack of funding. Honestly, I'd like to see a ironclad statement from BSA forbidding friends and family from underwriting eagle projects. The project is a learning tool, and a test of leadership; when families pay the project all benefit to the scout is removed.

You've got the wrong audience here, I not only would not support bringing electronics, beyond a flashlight into the field, I also don't believe in building program around advancement requirements. When you have a solid, scout based program, advancement is a by product that does not have to be forced. As a leader you should not be thinking about advancement, the scouts should, and that desire will cause it to be part of what you do. By your comments I can tell your a cub leader, and there is some differences between the three program levels, but that's offset by the time the parents spend working with their own child. Try pulling the plug on all the gadgets and gizmos, even chuck the watch for the weekend. Go native, forget requirements, and schedules, and before you know it things will fall into place. I know this is hard to swallow, but try it, you'll see.

Clear Nalgene with a solar light for a lid; the Nalgene light charges during the days activities. Now my water bottle is my flashlight, and I can hang it on the loop inside my tent, making it a lantern. When you can get one piece of gear to replace three (well two, I'd never pack a lantern) it's a very good day. Less is more is my camping motto, and I try not to carry anything that can't be used for multiple purposes.

Joyous Yule my friends, if a day late

I'm in Pack!

They are all real, what a person believes is up to that person, and a part of "reverence" is respecting the beliefs of others ... especially when they differ from your own.

Eagledad, are you kidding? "The problem with your philosophy stosh is that boys don't start or build troops. A troop is only as boy run as the vision of the the adults driving the program." Adults do not drive the program, and the vision isn't ours. As adult leaders our job is not to come up with the vision, but rather to provide the youth with the tools needed to make the vision a reality. Stosh, I know the difference between youth ran, and not, don't worry about that one. It's the whole providing the tools thing, maybe I was providing some instructions on usage. In the end it's all up to the scouts, but the training, and personal growth, we provide/foster, does shape the youth leaders who make the decisions.

Qwazse, I don't misconstrue you, as you said in your first post in this thread you're presenting the other point of view. Certainly none of this is personal; I think we're done pretty well exploring the topic. I didn't think I'd change your opinion to begin with, nor did I think you'd change mine; but I think it was productive to explore the topic.

Basement, we've not always agreed on everything in the past, but I'll be the first in line to shake your hand. Your troop has took the bull by the horns, and created a solid, strong scout program to be proud of. I took the campaign hat off last year, and stepped down as SM. I now wish I had taken a tougher stance on attendance and cut the dead weight loose. The good news is, as UC for the units are the Charter Org, and mentor for the new SM, I still have some influence

The issue here has nothing to do with the OA, it's a SM who does not understand how a Boy Scout Troop works. Your actions, and that of the scouts, should be to correct the actual issue. Once the troop is back on the correct course, I have no doubt there will be elections. Cause and effect

I deal with this every year, but from a different point of view, as a non-Christian. I think the reason it's hard to understand the reactions is that the reactions you get to your “Merry Christmas†are not only different, but for different reasons, and often with varied purpose. To get this out of the way, I appreciate anyone wishing me well, and am always glad they are embracing their faith. Where things change for me is where: a well-wishing is either an “feeler†for a potential faith conversion pitch; a placing of “the chip†on the shoulder, so that an attack can be made if the other person responds with a well wishing that is appropriate to their faith; and lastly when it is an act of political outrage. You can see by example some of the possible different reasons. We live in a compound culture, a true mixing pot, as is evidenced at any large scout gathering. We should respect our differences, find strength in them, and act to protect “everyone’s right to the freedom of religionâ€Â. I don’t mean to give offense by this, but all too often a zealous Christian will react in way that creates the stigma that causes the “PC†policies to be adopted. To better demonstrate my point, I’ll use my wife as an example. My wife works with the public, and just yesterday she had finished a transaction with a customer, who them wished her “Merry Christmasâ€Â, it had the intended effect, she genuinely felt good, and smiled, saying “and a Joyous Yule to youâ€Â. Her client’s reaction was: “Aren’t you allowed to say Merry Christmas?â€Â. My wife didn’t choose to respond with “Merry Christmas†because she could not, she chose not to, as we do not celebrate Christmas, but did return a heartfelt well wishing, that was not well received. The story does not end there, as my wife, assuming she was dealing with a reasonable human being, went on to explain that her employer did allow all employees to say “Merry Christmasâ€Â, but “Joyous Yule†was appropriate to her own beliefs. I’ll not reproduce the whole dialogue here, although as you can guess, I was told about every detail when my wife came home thoroughly upset, and clearly no longer enjoying her winter holiday. Will I will share is that the client did inform my wife that “Jesus is the reason for the seasonâ€Â, and she was sick to death of people trying to remove Jesus from his own holiday; followed by probing questions regarding my wife’s own beliefs, and repeated efforts to get her to “x†religious leader, so that she can hear the truth, and be put on the correct path. The icing on the cake was when a supervisor asked my wife what had happened, and after hearing her explanation responded with “couldn’t you just say Merry Christmasâ€Â. Now my wife fears religious persecution in the work place. Does seeing this from another point of view help you understand? I deeply revere the teaching of Jesus Christ, and from my understanding of his ministry, can’t imagine this woman’s actions were in keeping with his teachings. The sad thing is, from my experience, about 1 in 3 Christians react in a similar way. The end effect, polies, and laws, are adopted to protect everyone, and their religious practices. I wish everyone could act like the mature, educated, adults we are, and everyone would accept all “well wishingâ€Â, with a big smile, and a warm heart … maybe one day we all can sit at the table of equality, and there will truly be peace on earth.

I've found each unit is different, although being a bit old school, I'm intrigued, and encouraged, to find out tough attendance and participation requirements working. My mentioned how your troop went form dead, to the perfect size in a year; what did that for you? What type of program does the unit run? I'm asking because it sounds like you got something very right, and may have some good ideas others may benefit from.

Qwazse, the OA program is hardly a sub-culture, having been national program for almost 100 years, and a staple program in nearly very camp and council. The last number I saw for the annual value of service provided by the OA to BSA properties, and outer outdoor program areas, was in the billions, that's "billion", with a "B". No matter your personal opinions, you can't deny the good this program does for scouting in this nations, on so many levels. I'm guessing you have either had a bad experience somewhere, are part of one of the unofficial honor societies, or have never participated in a strong OA program. We are the same in that we each have a strong preference, but different in that I recognize the importance, and strong contributions, of both these national programs, where you do not.

I to find that units tend to find a correct level naturally, but your unit is clearly quite healthy as it is ran. Are there other near by units for scouts to join? How will you deal with age balance if new scouts aren't crossing to your unit, no new scouts can be a very bad thing over time.

How do you backpack with Bakers and Cots? BTW, there are many reason's I don't live in Texas, you have named several of them. I'm more of a 50 degree guy, although it gets over 100 here, and we have insane humidity. I enjoyed the climate at Philmont, hot, but dry ... unless you hit monsoon season.