oldsm

I agree completely with emb021 and LongHaul on this one! TLT assumes way too much on the part of the SM or whoever is delivering the program. The assumption that an adult has been through the new Woodbadge course is a bit too presumptuous, IMO. The old JLT course was dated, but at least you could put together a decent course by selecting items from a menu of choices. The new TLT forces you to basically develop your own program from the ground up. That is bound to give rise to inconsistent quality of TLT. And for those of us who already work two jobs in addition to our hour a week, it's tough to find time to develop a TLT program.

Calico, I have not found anywhere a prescribed (or proscribed) process for developing any court of honor, Eagle or otherwise. Out troop's long-standing tradition (since before I joined the troop) has been to let the Eagle and his family plan the ECOH, subject to approval of the troop (specifically, the SM). We do provide guidance, resources, samples of past ECOHs, etc., to help develop a meaningful ceremony. The troop then implements the plan. This has the benefit of making the ceremony truly special for both the Eagle and his family. Over the years we have had elaborate ceremonies and very simple ones. Most ECOHs in our troop run a little under one hour, start to finish. We do not take a cookie-cutter approach. I guess my frustration with this one comes from the fact that this particular Eagle has a reputation for doing everything last-minute. The apple did not fall far from the tree. Maybe I expect too much for someone to be considerate enough to be on time for his major event, and to enable his fellow scouts to be prepared to help honor him. In this case, trustworthiness, loyalty, and courtesy were sorely tested.

Yesterday's ECOH for Scout #2 (see the original post) has come and gone. The boys in the troop did a marvelous job of creating a silk purse out of a sow's ear, so to speak. Last Monday (less than a week before his ECOH), I finally saw his first draft of the ceremony. It was very rough, had holes in it, didn't include father's pin, mentor's pin, or the eagle pin the scout's mom had bought for her son to give to his grandmother. Didn't have names of people he wanted to participate: master of ceremonies, presenter, Eagle Charge, invocation/benediction. Had not planned for a rehearsal. We discussed his ceremony and marked up the copy. The scout was to make revisions and email me a copy. I finally got it Saturday afternoon. Scout was 1/2 hour late for his rehearsal. Many changes were made on the fly because he had not thought through logistics (after we had discussed them at length). Parents produced a program after the evening rehearsal. The scout didn't arrive until 40 minutes after the time he was supposed to be there (only 20 minutes before the ceremony), then didn't have the programs, his eagle bust, and scroll that he wanted used in the ceremony. The rest of the troop was standing around waiting for him to get there with the revised-again ceremony. HOWEVER, the scouts did a wonderful job. The SPL was the emcee, the CC, a beloved former SM, and a recent Eagle Scout did most of the "honors". The honor guard, color guard, and various readers were excellent. The candidate's father, an ordained Deacon in his church, did the invocation and benediction. I had little to do except sit back and marvel at how these young men adapted and pulled off a ceremony that at least two scouters (from other units) remarked to me was among the best they had ever seen. (I did have the honor of pinning the Eagle.) We always encourage our Eagle candidates to write their own ceremonies. We provide guidance, steer them to resources, and help to fine-tune (if it's not too last-minute!), and they become memorable occasions for the new Eagles. We feel that an individual ceremony is the way to go, for exactly the kinds of reasons expressed by MollieDuke.

There's the Troop-based version, but it's been watered down too much IMO. The new NYLT is excellent. Consider that your scouts are essentially going to camp for another week: the money pays for certain course materials, food, insurance, staff, etc. I sent two boys last years and they came back so much more enthusiastic and fired up than the boys who went to the earlier version. If the cost is prohibitive for the boys, consider asking your troop committee to budget money to pay all or a significant share of the cost for x number of boys each year. My committee does that (without regard to financial need) and feels that it is money well spent. NYLT is treated as an ADDITIONAL week of camp for the boys that attend.

There are a number of Eagle ceremonies that make reference to a light box that enables illumination of the different colors of the Eagle medallion or the badge. Does anyone know where I can find plans to construct a light box? Or where to purchase one? Haven't had much luck finding one online...I did find one picture that gave no indication of size or any details about how to build it (such as getting the image on a sheet of transluscent plastic, bulb type/wattage, how large it should be to be effective, etc). Any help will be greatly appreciated.

I'm sorry if this sounds negative, but I am really starting to wonder where the "magic" is in achieving Eagle. My troop has produced three eagles in the last year. All of them finished their requirements with only a day or two left before they aged out. Our troop is most definitely not an Eagle mill. We've only "produced" 5 in the last 6-7 years (including these 3). Scout #1 finished his requirements in January, had his EBOR in early March. His ECOH was not held until mid-September, after he was attending college. The purported reason for delaying was the his mom didn't want to deal with it over the summer (she only works part time and was the director for 1 week of Cub Scout Day Camp). Time between EBOR and ECOH: 6 months+. Scout #2 finished his requirements in July, had his EBOR in mid-August. His ECOH is scheduled for February 4. The best reason I've heard is that the family wanted to be sure his grandmother could attend from out of state. Also, they want to get his Cubmaster to attend (from about 900 miles away). The parents had visions of grandeur, expecting to use the high school auditorium to accomodate all the guests: out-of-staters, parents' professional colleagues, boy's friends. Then they found out how much the school was going to charge them for use of the facility. It's now scheduled for the church that charters the troop. I am finally getting to have a meeting with the scout and his parents to see what they've come up with for an ECOH ceremony (I provided advice and suggestions in December). Not much time left to plan a big shindig. Time from EBOR to ECOH: almost 6 months. Scout #3 finished his requirements in late October, had his EBOR in mid-November. Boy has shown virtually no interest in planning an ECOH. Finally got a commitment from him about a date (March 11) and got it scheduled with his church (where he finally decided to have it). In spite of several requests to look at ceremony resources (both printed and online), he has done nothing. Time from EBOR to ECOH: 3.5 months. A very small influencing factor on scheduling ECOHs is our troop calendar - trying to avoid weekends that have too many things already scheduled. That's only a minor factor. Sadly (my lament), none of the boys (oops! men - they're 18 now) will be able to wear the Eagle badge on their uniforms (#2 and #3 are already registered as ASMs). They will have to be content with the Eagle square knot. Is Eagle not perceived by the boys (and their parents) to be the high achievement we adults consider it to be? You would think that there would be excitement and enthusiasm about having an ECOH. That seems not to be the case. Scout #2 and Scout #3 discussed at one point having a joint ECOH. Scout #2's parents nixed that due to the number of people they expect... How much time do you typically experience in your troops between a successful EBOR and a corresponding ECOH? Scout #3 is my oldest son. I supported him through his scouting career but did not do his work for him. My ASM's will vouch for that! Planning or even discussing his ECOH just aren't high on his priority list. And I'm tired of prodding.

I agree. If an adult won't provide a DL number, then he can drive no one except his own family. I wonder how often anyone checks to be sure that the drivers you have on your lists actually have the minimum insurance they said they did the first time they drove for the unit? In my council, I don't know what happens to the tour permit with driver list. I know that the lady checks key items (like destination, activity, training, and number of seats available), approves it and gives me my piece. The rest gets put into a pile. What happens to the pile? Who knows? Maybe they just get tossed after a while if there were no claims. But are they guarded so the DL numbers aren't available to those who don't need to know? Are they just placed in the round file for the trash haulers to peruse? I am not paranoid. I'm just wondering... Pack, the form that requires a SSN is the Adult Application. Now there's one that scares me a bit. Sure, it's blocked out on the 2nd and 3rd pages, but there's nothing to keep someone from copying the first page that shows it clearly and keeping a "more legible" copy for their troop records. Where are the troop records kept? What happens to the original after it's been processed at the Council? I'm sure the SSN gets put into ScoutNet, but is the original shredded? Filed away for 10 years and then discarded intact? I have had MBC's who fought the SSN requirement. Council simply said "No SSN, no counselor. Find another one." They need it to do what we fondly refer to as the "FBI check".

I checked the link in epalmer's post above. My troop has made custom neckerchiefs for years. They are a plain cotton broadcloth triangle with our troop patch sewn on. We need new ones - have already obtained new patches with updated text on them, but have not yet cut/sewn the fabric. The last few years, the neckerchiefs seemed to be too small. So last night I followed the directions in the link. If I read correctly, BP's original neckerchief was a 32" (finished size) SQUARE of fabric that was then folded into a triangle before rolling and placing around the neck. While it is "full", I found it almost too full, being very bulky and difficult to roll/fold. I tried another one the same size, but made it triangular. That was better, but still hard to roll - maybe because the sizing has not been washed out of the fabric yet. The other difference I noticed is that following the directions, the grain of the fabric is at a 45-degree angle to the ground (with the point in the back). Our old ones were cut such that the grain is parallel to the ground. Is there likely to be any long-term noticeable difference in how the neckerchief wears/looks/holds up with the different grain?

My district will approve a very limited number of blood drives annually for ESLSPs. The overarching rationale seems to be that a blood drive will qualify if the goal is to bring in some significant increase in donors beyond what the Red Cross would normally expect to get at that time/place. Sometimes it involves recruiting a few additional volunteers to help with shepherding people around, serving refreshments, etc. Most of the "leadership" work is involved in publicity to get more people to show up. I believe that is more "doing the work yourself" than providing leadership. To my way of thinking, a blood drive is a very minimalist experience for an Eagle candidate and rightly belongs on the "banned" list.

Ryan, Welcome to the forums. I'm glad to see that many units are actively involved in Scout Sunday. From my vantage point, the 12th point of the Law gets short shrift. Perhaps my perspective is a bit different. First, I am a Preacher's Kid (my dad was a pastor) so I was in church every week from the day I was born (at least until I got to college and exercised for a couple of years my prerogative NOT to go!). I am also a church organist and choir director (for the past 26 years), so I am very involved with the services at the church I serve. And I am SM for a troop chartered by a different church. That said... At the church I serve, I coordinate Scout Sunday with the approval of the pastor. The church charters a CS pack. Due to the geographical area, there are boys involved in 2 CS packs and 3 BS troops. Some of the dads in the church are active in those units. What we do on Scout Sunday is lead most parts of a standard worship service. The boys (and adult leaders) wear their full uniforms. The boys handle just about everything except the sermon, the pastoral prayer, the benediction, and Communion. That means leading all of the responsive readings, other prayers, reading scripture, greeting and ushering, collecting the offering, etc. We do NOT have a flag procession, and we do not alter the service to emphasize scouting. It is as "standard" a service as possible, the differences being the visibility and participation of the scouts. We use standard hymns, choral music, etc., and do not permit the service to become a Scouts Own or campfire. Both of these have their places, but not in the sanctuary. I agree with the pastor that the primary purpose of worship is to glorify God - not ourselves. I do obtain all of the spoken texts several weeks before. The church uses a standard liturgy with prayers and lessons coming from lectionary. I always type them up in LARGE PRINT, DOUBLE SPACED, with WIDE MARGINS to make it easy for boys to read. I provide phonetic pronunciations for the "hard" words that most boys (and many adults) have trouble with. And we always get together in the sanctuary to practice reading and movement. Most boys have not done public speaking in large spaces. They need to learn to slow down their delivery, pause for punctuation, emphasize the appropriate words, speak to the back row, etc. They need to just "appear" in the right place at the right time to keep the service flowing smoothly without calling attention to themselves. We encourage everyone in the various units to attend and participate regardless of faith; however, nothing is mandatory. We are inclusive of all faiths. At the church that charters my troop (and a feeder pack), there has not been much involvement on Scout Sunday. I spoke with that pastor a couple of weeks ago and his is very anxious to have the scouts participate much as I described above. Obviously, someone else will have to coordinate things, but that's a minor detail. It is going to happen this year. For what it's worth, both churches are Congregational (UCC). We DO NOT change Scout Sunday to accommodate the Super Bowl. The game doesn't even begin until 6:00 p.m. Eastern Time, a full 7 hours after our service has ended. We see no point in bowing to football where there really is no conflict.

A number of years ago we had a similar problem. We solved it by letting the boys identify the problems and come up with the solutions. What they developed over a period of 2 or 3 weeks was a sort of contract that every member of the troop - and their parents - was required to agree to and sign. It spells out basic expectations that the boys identified (such as decorum, having the scout handbook, wearing the uniform, a few specific discipline items) and a series of consequences (also developed by the boys). Yes, putting up the sign, appealing to the Scout Oath and Law, training...none of them were effective. Since the "contract", the preferred methods have been able to work quite nicely. What I'm saying is that sometimes you need a single major impact to wipe out the many small things that get in the way - sort of to get everyone's attention and get everyone back on the same page. If anyone is interested in seeing what our boys came up with, send me a PM and I'll forward it to you.

Last night I passed out copies of the two photos to each of the patrols and asked them during the evening to see if they could identify who was in the pictures. No other info provided. In the closing circle, I asked them if they figured it out. Two boys volunteered that Gerald Ford was in the picture, but weren't sure which one he was ("I don't know what he looked like as an adult..."). I guess those two were at least aware of the "news" of the last week and put two and two together. Anyway, for my SM minute, I set the stage for the political sense at the time (Agnew/Nixon, Vietnam War, dissension, etc.), then read some of the news reports that I found on the web that pertained specifically to how scouting's values influenced Ford his entire life. I especially liked one statement to the effect that when Ford was criticized for acting too much like a Boy Scout, his ready reply was that "more people should act like Boy Scouts." The minute was a bit longer than usual, but this was an exceptional "teaching moment" and I chose to seize it.

I wonder how many of the leaders in those photos imagined at the time - even a teeny bit - that they were helping to mold a young man who would one day be President of the United States. How many of our own young men are destined for greatness?

"The National Council authorizes a local council to use BSA proprietary marks (i.e., insignia, words, phrases, designation marks, pictorial representations, and descriptive marks relating to the BSA) on materials created solely for the council to use in the promotion and delivery of the Scouting program." So does this clause permit me, at the unit level, to use the proprietary marks as part of my unit program? For example, on my unit's letterhead, recruiting materials, powerpoint presentation, etc., where I do the design and production and no outside party is involved? Does my unit "count" as being part of the Council's program? I think the policy above does not address the things that matter the most to unit scouters. It seems to be directed primarily at district/council activities.

I would have done exactly what you did. In my experience, youth frequently fail to follow through. They don't seem to get too upset if an event gets canceled or throttled back because of their inaction. Money doesn't seem to be a big issue for them, because their parents are always willing to reach into their pockets. There's another problem with youth following up on some of these things: town hall (for permits, etc.) is usually open only during the hours these kids are in school. That automatically restricts their access. Sometimes we adults just have to assume the responsibility and communicate the result to the youth. I think you did the best you could under the circumstances and have no need to feel guilty. You were providing some of that thing we call adult guidance.

[RANT] I think our society has become entirely to focussed on feelings. In our perhaps well-intentioned (perhaps misguided) efforts avoid offending anyone at any time, we have become a nation devoid of humanity. We are so fearful of even the possibility of offending someone that we minimize ourselves. Humor has always worked by having someone/something as an object. Sometimes it's men, sometimes women, sometimes the "disadvantaged", sometimes blondes, sometimes [fill-in-the-blank]. I firmly believe that if you happen to be part of the object group, and you find a joke offensive, GET OVER IT AND MOVE ON. I'll bet that everyone at some point in their life has told a joke at someone else's expense. It is part of life - always has been and always will be. Accept that diversity in our society means that there will always be people (good people) who enjoy poking a little fun at someone else. And I think we all know that a pendulum swings both ways. If you don't identify with a group's/person's behavior, remove yourself from the situation. For myself, I try not to offend. But I'm also not opposed to ribald humor in the appropriate setting. Political correctness has run roughshod over our society, and I for one am tired of it. [END RANT]

Is BSA going to come after me because I use the BSA logo on my own troop's publicity materials (a full-color brochure that I design and print)? And on our troop letterhead? How about the printed materials that I have produced for adult recruitment conferences? (The materials were printed gratis - no one made any money.) There are legitimate needs to control the use of trademarks. Doing so to excess is a double-edged sword. BSA may be about to be hoist on its own petard.

In my troop, the scout merely lists on his application the names and contact information information "who would be willing" to provide a reference. Our practice has been that our Committee Chairman telephones those individuals and has a personal chat with them, taking notes as they talk. Occasionally he gets a couple to actually write a letter of recommendation. Last summer I assumed the reference task while our CC was out of town for several weeks, so that an EBOR could be held two days after he returned (I also set up the EBOR for him). I didn't have time to call everyone, so I produced a nice letter that I cribbed off another thread on this forum and sent them to the named individuals with a stamped, addressed return envelope (sent to the CC). The results were amazing. My CC now asks me to "send out those letters" for the new applicants. My council doesn't seem to care how we check references. In fact, they don't even want written ones attached to the Eagle Application.

"We have a bunch of old merit badge pamphlets in our quartermaster, but I don't think there are any that old." Don't you let your quartermaster have any real food? I hope they were tasty!

My troop joins with a number of other interested people helping to sort toys contributed to the Toys for Tots campaign. Locally it's sponsored by the Marine Corps Reserves unit. We spend a day unloading truckloads (as in 40-foot trailers) stuffed with bags and bags of toys, then sort them by age/gender, then pick items to fulfill requests made to them by various community-based social service agencies. For example, one agency might need 15 toys for boys aged 4-5 and 22 toys for girls aged 11-13. It's a fast-paced operation. I can't imagine how many tons of toys are handled. No wrapping - just bagging. And we have fun doing it. We'll be doing it this Saturday, 12/16. If you want pix, PM me and I'll take some.

Perhaps a CE who denies seeing something might be demonstrating "plausible deniability". Even though he might have seen it or knows of it, he could believe that saying that he doesn't know anything about it might infer that it does not exist. Maybe that's the game plan from Texas? This kind of stuff happens frequently in the corporate world. The truth eventually comes out.

Epalmer84, thanks for the explanation of hoist by one's own petard. When I posted before I had a hunch that it might have a meaning similar to this, but was too lazy to look it up. And I never caught the line when last I saw Hamlet... The etymology conjures up images that I'm not sure I want to pursue, especially when linking it the the hoist phrase. OK, I'll behave now.

Petard? I had never run across that word before. It shows up as one of the WordPower entries in the (I think) current issue of Reader's Digest. Now I see it here (and, like FB, am curious as to how one would be hung on one).

Does anyone have a copy of the aforementioned communication from National about this? I just checked the website and it appears that nothing in this area has been changed since June, 2005. If there are changes in procedures for us to be able to use the BSA logos, it would be good to know about them before we need to use them. Making an example out of a unit is a poor way to foster cooperation.

Eamonn, I'm sorry if I misunderstood your intent. When you mentioned drugs and alcohol, I took that to refer to illicit drugs - not prescribed meds. I apologize. Based upon the picture that I saw and the news coverage, I would bet that drugs/alcohol were not involved. I also suspect that there is shared culpability. In a parade, one normally cannot drive fast - usually about a walking speed or slower. Therefore, the likelihood of unsettling bumps and quick starts/stops is very much minimized. There were no reports of driver misbehavior, and his vehicle did not strike another. There was no indication that there was anything for the lad to hang on to. He was probably sitting near the edge and simply lost his balance, or was perhaps shifting position, or who knows what. Maybe he was being energetic, as cubs are wont to be. A driver cannot have his eyes constantly on every boy on his trailer/float while also watching the vehicle in front of him, bystanders (who may jump out), etc. It is physically impossible. That's why we should also have adults on the float, no? To supervise the young ones. I suspect that the police investigation is probably trying to reconcile the various eyewitness accounts that I am sure they have. Who really saw what happened? Who remembers it the way they wanted to see it? Who was influenced by news reports? Who has suppressed what they saw? Other than the driver, who was responsible for making sure that the G2SS was followed? Was the driver even aware that it exists? I feel very sorry for everyone involved. It was a tragedy likely caused by a number of factors.