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Scoutnut, Unless it's changed, Trails End requires case-lot orders for online ordering. That's too bad, because most people don't want to buy 4 or 6 or 12 units of a product. For us, it's wasted effort to even mention it. I understand that Trails End has to do this because of the high cost of handling and shipping smaller quantities. Do any of your scouts have customers who actually buy directly from Trails end?

My CS days are dim as far as recalling popcorn sales. I know we did them, and for the most part everyone participated. But I don't recall how funds were divided among pack/den. For context, in my Troop, sales are entirely voluntary. All of the profit earned by a boy's popcorn sales go into his troop account to pay for his summer camp, personal scouting equipment, etc. Some boys really make an effort (this year I had one over $1500 and two over $1000, and last year had two over $1500). One of these boys takes the initiative to "hit" a different neighborhood on his bike after school - almost no parental assistance (except for deliveries!). Our troop also does 6 bottle/can drives a year. It's amazing how many people really hate turning their cans and bottles in for the 5-cent deposit. We also raise funds through the district Hike for Scouting. As a result of this, 4 of our boys paid for their entire summer camp (just under $300 this year), and a couple had money left over for future scouting expenses. Almost every other boy contributed a significant portion toward his summer camp. This year we have a new "popcorn colonel". He's an entrepreneur who has run his own sales business for the past 23 years with a great deal of success. He's planning a new approach to generate some excitement for the boys (personal goal-setting, fun, purpose, competition, etc.). He's also signed on as a Salesmanship MBC - popcorn sales are a perfect tie-in for requirement 5a. At the CS level, it's hard to see the real "why" for fundraising, because expenses are really quite low. Maybe the trick would be to educate people beforehand about the importance of helping boys begin to understand that their "hard work" selling popcorn will help them have fun going to summer camp. Of course, we're talking delayed gratification here. Most young boys probably won't make the connection next summer unless someone makes a big point about it. Perhaps someone needs to rethink how the sales message is transmitted to the parents of the cubs. You need to "sell" the parents before you can expect them to support their kids selling. Just my .02.

The trick to getting the word out to SMs is to communicate with them. I know: easier said than done. I don't know your area, but in my district, we have about 40 or so troops. Most of the counseling seems to be with MBCs who are in close proximity to a scout's home or troop - most won't want to drive more than 15 or 20 minutes, which limits the number of units I'm likely to "draw" from. It's a simple matter to get on the phone with the SMs of the various troops and have a pleasant chat with them. I find that they are usually in complete agreement and are glad that I've taken the time to call. As an alternative, you can also reach a good portion of the SMs (or at least representatives of their troops) at monthly roundtables. Even if you're not an SM, SA, CC, etc., but "just" an MBC, I would think that the fact that you would show up and be willing to state your case might impress a lot of people with your concern for their scouts' experience.

For several years my troop has prided itself on wearing the complete uniform. The boys have been involved in so many district and council events that they noticed the name plates that many adults wore over the right pocket. The boys decided that they wanted to make that name plate a part of their uniform too. Once they got them, everyone stood just a little taller. At summer camp, my troop usually is the only one in complete Class A for evening flag and dinner (including socks and belts). Almost always the other units are in waist-up uniform. Friday evening, one of my scouts asked me "Why are we the only troop that wears the complete uniform?" As luck would have it, the troop standing directly opposite ours was in full uniform, too: "Are we?" I said. "Look straight across." At the closing COH on Saturday morning, I was astounded to see every scout in every troop in full Class A. No one has made any kind of a big deal about this (this year or others years), so I have no idea how it happened. (Usually, almost everyone is in civies ready to go home.) What a sight. I'd like to think that the example we set for our scouts, and the example they set for others, makes a positive impression. The results might not be immediate, but patience is usually rewarded.

I think part of what is missing is the opportunity for the MBC to share his knowledge/insights/love of the subject with the Scout. The purpose of the initial meeting is so that the MBC can explain HOW he wants the scout to do the WHAT (requirements). There is a lot of leeway here. I think that the unstated intent of merit badges is to expose young people to activities that they otherwise might never have any knowledge of, and possibly help the find an interest that might someday develop into a career or serious avocation. Many requirements says DISCUSS {insert topic) with your counselor. Reviewing a previously written report isn't discussing. And a good meaty discussion of a topic isn't going to happen in a "come observe and sign" setting. I refuse to counsel MB if the scout (not a parent) won't contact me beforehand. On the other hand, if a scout conntacts me, meets with me, and explains how he has already done certain requirements in conjunction with school, work, hobbies, etc., and can furnish evidence of having done so, I almost always accept those "prior achievements". Incidentally, swimming MB requires explanation and discussion 2a, 10a, 10b, and 10d. In the example scoutlder cited, the parent clearly was hoping to bypass the requirements. I'm with scoutldr on this one.

My recommendation is Camp Mattatuck, just north of Waterbury CT. It's one of the Connecticut Rivers Council camps and, in my view, has the best program and facilities of the three. It's also only about 100 miles from Albany - a little over 2 hours drive. You can see my comments under the thread "And How Was Your Summer Camp Experience?" http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=135864&p=2. Feel free to PM me if you'd like more information. We keep going back and back and back...

I have always been under the impression that an Eagle can only wear the Eagle Badge on his left pocket until he turns 18, and that after that he wears the Eagle knot. I am now hearing that an Eagle can wear the badge until he turns 21. This is of interest because I have two boys who made Eagle JUST under the wire (by days), but the ECOHs have not been held yet. What is correct?

I had a new scout once who was so proud of his MBs. He showed up at the next COH with them all neatly sewn to his sash, which was worn over his LEFT shoulder. So...the badges were sewn to the back, but they were in front. But they were only TEMPORARY! He got to do some more sewing to make them "permanent".

I agree. The BSA blue card is item 34124, which has only 3-parts.

So far, we've had "personal preference" answers. Where are the U.P.?

Evmori, I'm not certain if you're referring to my troop "wanting to keep everything in-house". Let me explain. It's not that we don't want Council to verify signatures. Virtually every troop in my district had BIG PROBLEMS with Council not returning the blue cards to the local units. That left the troops without their own records. The problem is that the Council registration staff is way too small (only 2 people) and overworked. Checking blue cards was just another low-priority task form them that quickly snowballed into a much larger problem. The solution was for Council to not require the blue cards and rely on the district advancement committee to verify them only for that small percentage that applies for Eagle. By way of example, last January I had a young man who was a candidate for Eagle. I requested a ScoutNet advancement report from Council so that I could verify Council's records against our own troop records. Council was missing 4 of his merit badges: 3 from his first summer camp and one since then. Fortunately, I had our troop copies of his properly-signed MBs and copies of the advancement reports where Council had signed that they'd received them years ago. Needless to say, they corrected their records. Now, how many boys have incorrect records in ScoutNet? And is it really necessary to correct them until it's apparent that one might make Eagle?

Gern, What you describe is the way it's done now, and I believe it is the correct process. We USED TO have to turn in blue cards along with the advancement report - then the blue cards were SUPPOSED TO be returned to the unit. Problem was that the blue cards often didn't get returned. The only potential drawback is that Council cannot easily check the validity of MBC signatures on the cards (I wonder if they ever did!). Oh, well. A scout(er) is supposed to be trustworthy.

OK, a few suggestions. 1. Be sure that everyone speaking is aware of the tenor of the event. You don't want any one speaker to start doing a rah-rah incantation or exhortation. Slow, calm, distinct speech wins the day. 2. Squelch any inappropriate behavior from students or staff immediately, before it spreads like wildfire. 3. Rehearse the color guard ahead of time. Make sure they know how they're going to place the flag(s) on the fire. Is anyone ready with a stick to "help" when part of a flag doesn't burn? 4. When it is time to present the flag(s) for retirment, have everyone stand at attention, hands at sides and silent. When a flag is placed on the fire, eveyone either gives the scout or military salute (depending upon uniform), or places their right hand over their heart. Hats off. The only speaking during this time should be from the one individual who "calls commands". If multiple flags are being retired, it would be nice for those present to drop the salute between flags (it gives the arm a rest), then salute for each subsequent one. Just some thoughts. You will undoubtedly come up with a whole series of protocols that will suit your particular circumstance.

My District maintains a list of MBCs, all of whom must be properly registered (adult application and MBC app). My District also requires a new adult app every year to maintain registration as an MBC (a pain), even if we're also registered as Scouters. Within my troop, I as SM do most of the MBC recruiting among parent ranks, based on what I learn of parent interests and skills, and what our needs are. Of course, they also get registered. We also sign a few people who are not parents, but who have specific interest or skills and maybe some past affiliation with scouting. My scouts do earn most of their MBs at summer camp, but they are also encouraged to work on others throughout the year as individuals or pairs. We insist that they ask for a blue card, get a counselor approved (they can request a particular MBC, but the SM reserves the right to approve or disapprove). The Scout then contacts the counselor, does the work, and hands in his completed blue card to the SM. I've found that advancement records are better if I maintain Troopmaster myself (and get the awards, etc.). No one else seems to be able to stay current. If a scout wants to earn a MB outside the district (perhaps at a sailing camp or some similar activity, I make sure that the proposed counselor is in fact registered in his/her jurisiction. My council used to ask for blue cards along with the advancement reports, but they dropped that - probably because too many units complained about delays and lost blue cards at the council. However, my district advancement chair checks them when a boy comes up for Eagle. Basically, I police the MB process for my unit. It's a pain (only another hour a week), but I've never had a question at Eagle time.

Eamonn, Why a food service? The camp my troop attends has its own cook (just like waterfront director, shooting range director, etc.) who oversees youth staff members. The leaders at camp discussed food service with our Camp Director at the end of the week. The food was always hot when it should be, cold when it should be, and there was plenty to eat. You want seconds? They're available. Everything is served family style except for a fantastic outdoor barbeque picnic on Picture Nite. Nothing ran out. The Camp Director told us that he is able to provide the quality and quantity of food he does for almost the same price as he would have to pay a commercial service - and then there would be smaller portions, etc., etc. The food was excellent all week. The boys said so, both in my troop and in the other troops present. They liked the variety, the "freshness" (it didn't taste like steam table, except for the peas), and the "kid appeal" (meaning stuff they like - not junk food). Maybe if we all avoid the camps with the commercial food services....!

MaScout, Thanks for the update. It appears that you are in a smallish town where shared values are probably more evident than in some of our larger communities. My previous comments still stand. As for the younger set, some advance in-class preparation from their teachers would help. I would try to help them see that the retirement ceremony is something very special that they will understand more as they grow older. Maybe the approach would be for them to observe closely what goes on during the ceremony and then ask the teachers to follow up in class with them. 5th-6th graders could write a report, maybe as homework, younger grades could discuss, draw pictures, etc. I think it's important for the students to see this more in the light of a Memorial Day observance than a 4th of July celebration. In a school this size, I think you have a real opportunity being handed to you. I hope the school will back efforts to tie it in with curriculum. Good luck.

First off, MaScout, what grade level is your school? Middle School? High School? How many students are there? I think the dynamics would be quite different with different age groups and whether you have 400 or 1200 students My biggest concern with a large gathering like that - especially with kids who can be so hard-pressed to restrain themselves anytime there's a spectacle - would be making certain that the occasion is extremely dignified. Pageantry can be useful, but it can be overblown to the point that the symbolism of the retirement is lost and it risks becoming a celebration (read carnival). For Middle Schoolers, I would suggest that the message needs to center on what our country stands for and why it is great. Tie it in with what they are learning in the curriculum, and explain that the flag retirment is a very special and solemn act. Include some quiet time. I would not go after the band playing a bunch of patriotic songs. Perhaps just the Star-Spangled Banner at the outset, maybe taps at the end. Keep it simple, and it will probably make a bigger impression on them. Maybe have a veteran or two participate with the Scouts. For High School students, you can address freedom and responsibility on an adult level. Discuss sacrifices. Perhaps ask people in the audience who have family members on active duty or in a reserve unit to stand (quietly). Invite a veteran to speak. Perhaps have the class valedictorian write and deliver a suitable speech. If the scouts lead the observance, let it be "owned" by the entire student body. All of this is easier said than done. Others will surely have more ideas - probably better ones, too. I wish you well. It's a service that should be done more often, in my opinion.

I'm sure everyone will have their own take on what makes a good camp. Here's my 3 cents. WELL-TRAINED STAFF. The staff delivers the program, from instructional boating and swimming to merit badges and everything else. A quality camp makes sure that all of the staff knows what their jobs are, how their jobs serve the troops who camp there, and hold the staff accountable for delivering the program that the scouts expect. Most of this stems from the attitude at the top - the camp director and his deputies. COMMUNICATION. Establishing a relationship with a camp should not be like making a hotel reservation. It certainly can't be done by just consulting web sites. A good camp will engage in a dialogue with the troop before they attend. This provides a way to let troops know what to expect: showers in campsites or at a central location? private or shared-with-the-public lake? limitations (age requirements) for special activiites (such as climbing tower or C.O.P.E program)? accomodations for special needs? troop responsibilites? food arrangements (do troops do their own cooking or eat in a dining hall)? This kind of open and advance conversation lets everyone know what to expect, so there are no big surprises -- maybe just a bunch of small, pleasant surprises. ATTITUDE. This works both ways. A camp that has an attitude of wanting and trying to do everything possible to serve their guest troops has a major advantage over a camp that doesn't, regardless of the assortment of activities. The best facility won't overcome poor attitude from the staff. On the other hand, troops using the camp's services also need to be considerate and not expect to be waited upon as though they were staying in a 5-star hotel. Expect to clean your own latrines, be on time for meals in the dining hall, wait your turn politely when necessary, offer to do a conservation project to benefit the camp, provide extra eyes on the waterfront, etc. Be flexible: the camp staff can't be blamed for closing the waterfront when a thunderstorm comes up. Say "thank you" to the staff. Smile! and have fun.

What I recall from researching flag retirements is that there is no one correct way to do it. While burning may be the preferred method, burial is also acceptable. (Aside: How many just get tossed in the trash with all the other detritus of daily life?) Another misconception is that only the military or the Boy Scouts can retire a flag properly. That is untrue. ANYONE can do it, even in their own backyard or fireplace, or wherever. The key is dignity. We prefer to retire flags in a private troop setting rather than making it a public spectacle. I recall reading somewhere that if a large quantity of flags are to be retired, that only one (or a few) should be retired publicly; the remainder are to be retired more privately so that it does not become a spectacle. I recall seeing this this at a Scout Show several years ago, where a large pyre had been prepared at a distance by the OA, whose members stayed up all night retiring the large quantity individually. For the public, the representative retirements were both meaningful and adequate. There is nothing magical about the grommets. I think the only real reason to retrieve them is to Leave No Trace. My troop prefers to retire flags "whole". We don't believe in rending the union. Even though most retirments seem to concentrate on the sacrfices made by our dead and wounded, it is important to realize that the flag stands for all of us. There are a great many people who are not in uniform who work equally hard and in many cases under extremetly trying conditions to defend and uphold our Constitution through other means. I would think that the flag is big enough to represent all citizens of our great country. I always preface retirements by drawing a contrast between the flag burnings that make the TV news, where our flag is burned in anger and protest, versus the burning that we do in a retirement. The paradox is not lost on the scouts. They understand that what we are burning is not our country, but merely a symbol of our country - of what we stand for. In fact, they see that even as an old worn-out flag is consumed by the flames, that it burns even brighter, and that the ideals we stand for will not be put out. May we each capture that flame in our hearts.

For the past 2 years or so I have been having SM/SA meetings for exactly the reasons so many others do. We call them ALCs (Adult Leader Councils). They're held at a regular time (3rd Monday of each month) so they don't conflict with troop or committe meeting, and they are published on on troop calendar. These meetings are especially important since I can't seem to get anyone other than my CC to attend roundtables. If you're not holding meetings like this, I encourage you do to so. It is time well spent.

My two sons have both been on camp staffs. Son #1 was a CIT the first year and loved it. He worked kitchen last year. His kitchen day typically began at 6:00 a.m. so that "early" breakfast was ready for staff, followed by "everyone else" breakfast, then ended after clean-up from staff snack around 10:00 p.m. He slept in a canvas tent just like almost everyone else. He did have an hour break in the morning and one in the afternoon - chance to roam, relax, or get a shower(!). This year he decided to work maintenance at a nearby resort. It pays more and he gets his own bed every night. My other son is in his 4th year on staff at a Cub Scout camp. the first year was as a "staff kid" on the archery range (he was "adopted" by a family friend on staff), the next as a CIT, and the last two as waterfront staff (he earned BSA Lifeguard his during staff week his first year after CIT). He puts in long, tiring days. He's also sleeping in a canvas tent with whatever pack happens to be there that week. When not on duty at the waterfront (which is also serving a day camp), he helps out with any number of other tasks that need to be done. When asked about the long days, low pay, tiring work, he says (always with a smile on his face), "You work summer camp because you love Scouting; the paycheck is just a fringe benefit." The boys worked at camps in opposite directions from home. Yes it was trying. They generally were free to go after 10:00 on Saturday morning and had to be back by 10:00 Sunday morning (one was 9:00 and 9:00). A chance to do laundry, check email, phone a friend, SLEEP, and start all over again. During staff week they were putting up tents, moving platforms from one site to another, clearing brush, putting in docks at the waterfront, preparing program areas, and all sorts of things that are necessary to get the camp ready to operate for the summer. During the closing staff week, they'll be taking things down, putting them away, etc. It has to be done. We do have some volunteers and the OA to do some of this, but the staff plays an integral part in the total success of the camps. Did my boys complain about the work/hours/fatigue? A little. But my wife and I did not baby them. Instead, we praised their decisions to work at camp and encouraged them simply to live up to the Scout Oath and Law. What do/did they get out of the experience? A real sense of accomplishment. Pride in their ability. A strong work ethic. A sense they they were helping other people have a good time. They grew as a result. The hours: long The pay: minimal The experience: Priceless

I just got back a week ago from what was probably the BEST WEEK of summer camp I've had in the 5 or 6 years I've been doing the Boy Scout thing (as opposed to Cubs). My troop always goes to Camp Mattatuck, one of three BS camps our council operates, and all of which are within about a 1.5-hour drive. Mattatuck is consistently our choice. One of the others is too small and has civilization encroaching - no "wilderness" feel at all. The other has the reputation of being a merit badge factory, which the boys resent. Mattatuck emphasizes quality and fun. The camp director flat out tells leaders at the pre-camp meeting that the primary goal of this camp is for the boys to have fun doing scouting. Merit badges are just a happy by-product of a fun week. He tells the boys at the closing COH that he hopes parents' first question will be not "how many MBs did you earn" but "did you have fun". Week 1 spanned the 4th of July. The census was way down this year - only 107 boys in about 7 troops (I had 13, plus 1 other adult). The staff might still a little "green" the first week (not seriously so), but week 2 had 280 scouts. I'll take less crowding, less competing for resources, no closed-out MBs, etc. Food here is terrific. The camp has its own cook, so we don't have food service portion-controlled hog-slopping. The boys enjoyed real french toast (no frozen stuff), ham and cheese omeletes, calzones, fried chicken, good salad bar, etc., etc. Quantity is "all you can eat". The staff is consistently top-notch; probably 50% or more have been there multiple years - I think that says something. Swimming and boating are in a lake wholly owned by the camp. Special features include a fantastic 5-sided climbing tower and COPE course with 300+ foot zip line. Amenities for leaders include hot coffee or tea (hi-test or decaf) served in the campsites in the early morning along with a daily camp newsletter, newspapers at the dining hall, coffee served by the staff to leaders at all meals, and a daily briefing with the camp director or his assistant to assess how things are going, what needs there are in the various units or campsites, observations about impending weather situations, etc. The staff is uniformly respectful of scouts and leaders alike and anxious to please. Our boys enthusiastically participate in a conservation project at the camp every year. They like this camp and are more than glad to help preserve it. I generally limit my boys to 3 merit badges, partly so they do justice to the ones they earn, and partly to be sure that they're not so overscheduled that they can't enjoy the week. Some boys only try 2 MBs, depending on scheduling. They enjoy swimming, boating, archery, rifle, mountain biking, whitewater, canoeing, fishing, and a whole lot more. We've been burned in past years by the homesickness plague on parents night (Wednesday). As a result, we've asked parents not to come out. We explain why, and they understand and so far have respected our request. The problem has always been weepy moms and weak dads - never the boys. The parents save $3.00 a gallon, too! This year I had 8 1st- and 2nd-year boys try the Mile Swim. I had 8 finish it! In the lake (there's no pool). They were proud as peacocks. It's probably the hardest that any of them had ever pushed themselves. I am happy for them. My most treasured moments this year are the time after prayer bell and taps when I can just sit and talk with some of the scouts who aren't quite ready to go to bed. I get to know these young people in a way that I otherwise would not be able to - certainly not at a regular troop meeting or a weekend outing. They're so open, looking for information, sharing thoughts. Priceless moments. The other thing was the way this bunch of kids who don't want to gather firewood took it upon themselves to have a troop campfire the last night. Entirely on their own (without any prompting or urging from adults), they gathered wood, put together a program with songs and skits, and invited guests. I think they invited every staff member they could find; 19 of them showed up! With the turnout and the mood of the evening, I suggested thay they add a flag retirement (one boy had brought a worn-out flag, just in case). As it was being consumed with everyone standing at attention, the prayer bell rang. It was a serendipitous moment that brought tears to my eyes. Two staff members remarked afterward that they were quite moved by the retirement. "My troop never does that; I'll have to get them to do this, too. Thank you." I could go on and on. We have no need to go out of council, nor do the other troops we share the week with (almost always the same troops). If southern New England is within your travel distance, I encourage you to consider Camp Mattatuck (Connecticut Rivers Council).

Hear! Hear! Gray areas are only an opinion and not official Policy? That's some of the best news I've heard in a while. Even the boys are complaining about the prohibitions on so-called gray areas and political correctness. EveryBODY uses TP, goes "wee", etc. To all the PC crowd, I say "Get over it. Let the boys have some fun. After all, I'll bet that every one of you chuckled or, more likely, guffawed at nearly identical scenarios when you were scout age. Don't deprive today's youth of this important part of being boys and growing up." I can't wait for the next camporee.

"I must say that the reason I steered clear of the OA is because it's dominated by haughty arrogant people" Gee, that's what I've often felt about people who've taken woodbadge.

I'm told by our OA that they can't even tap (lightly touch) a person on the shoulder anymore - no touching permitted. So now it's a "call-out" ceremony. What a shame. How pathetic. I refuse to be PC just for the sake of being CP.