Oldscout448

Just wanted to thank all you guys who took the time to respond. I read and in some cases reread every one of your posts. for the record; yep I'm an ASM, the scouts ( not a patrol) were given the task by the SM. the other scouter at the fire was some district level bigwig, ( I forgot to say we were at a camporee) I am thinking of offering a class or two in advanced wood cutting skills to the older scouts/scouters. You know felling, limbing, bucking, splitting etc Hey, how about log cabin building?

This has been hashed over and over I know, but I'm still struggling with the last campout campfire. I know that's criptic so allow me to give a thumbnail sketch. About 5 scouts were given the task of building the Saturday night campfire, none of them had a saw or an ax so I lent them mine. My axes are just short of razor sharp,so I followed the scouts to the campfire circle. Firstly to see that no scout got hurt, secondly to see that my ax wasn't going to hit a nice hard rock. It was quickly clear that none of the scouts had ever built a large fire before. I sat on my log and tried to stay out of it. After watching them pile the wood up, and have it fall apart, twice, I asked if I could make a suggestion. they said "uhh sure" "Notch the logs." "How?" "Can I show you?" "OK" So I notched one log and showed then how it would now cradle the log above it. Then I sat back down. They did the rest. It wasn't exactly neat or pretty but it held. They seemed pretty happy with their work. They gave me my tools back and headed back. to their tents. Then the other Scouter there took me to task for " Not letting the scouts learn by failing" he seemed to think that we are not to teach anything, just sit and watch and drink coffee. That I was not allowed to pass on anything I have learned in four decades of hiking and camping unless asked by the scouts first. Now he's a WBer, with a lot more knots than me, but that just doesn't make much sense. Look, I dont want to be a PL again. Or an ASPL, SPL, JASM, QM,or bugler I did all those in my day, now its these scouts turn to learn to lead and teach. But they can not teach what they don;t know, any more than they can ask to be taught what they don't know exists. Am I off base here?

What a flood of memories that question brings! Sunrise on the Tooth, ordeal night, the blacksnake in my sleeping bag, 2001 Jambo, my first meeting as the SPL, on and on. I guess the one that really sticks out ( not counting the Campfire Girl camp where I met my wife to be ) was the first 50 miler. In our troop this event was held every spring, and was be invitation only. I the guys who made it last year asked you, you could go if you wanted, and were first class or higher. This year there were only three scouts from last years hike who were going. two were PLs and the the other was our SPL. I was both honored and amazed that they asked me if I wanted to tag along. no adults were crazy enough to hike with us, so we just went by ourselves. In that day and age it was rather common for patrols to hike and camp alone. We started off headed south on the A trail just west of Gettysburg Pa. on a warm sunny day with heavy canvas packs, and light hearts. Woke up next morning to sore feet and threatening clouds, it started to rain lightly about 10:00 or so by lunchtime it was comming down hard. It rained all the rest of the day... and all night....and the next day... and night...and the next ...and the next.... The small creeks turned into roaring, foaming, torrents that had us searching up and down stream for a fallen tree that we could use as a bridge. Lighting fires got hard, then harder, then impossible (at least for us) so cold food was all we had, the trail was muddy,when it was not actually under water, we slipped and slid and fell repeatedly. The turning point came when I had fallen for what seemed like the hundredth time and just lay there, John the SPL turned and came back asking if I was OK? I told him " I just can't do this." He said " O yes, you can! because you have to! " So I did. We all did. there was a bond between the four of us after that, being teenaged boys, we never tried to put it into words, but it was there, and whenever some Scouter warned us that something would be hard, we just looked at each other and smiled a small secret smile Oldscout

Well I'm back, all in all it went pretty well, considering the ceremonies team had only managed to get in two practice sessions beforehand and only 3 out of 4 showed up for those. A far cry from " back in the day" when we met every Tuesday from January to June. There was the newbie who did Friday night Meteu, I just sort of expected him to stand there and just recite his lines. He moved , he gestured, he made eye contact, the " You who love ... " was delivered in almost a whisper, the "thunder in the mountains" line echoed off the trees fifty yards away! I was sitting at the big drum (we only have 5 scouts on the team) eyes wide. Holy cow this kid is good! Afterward the scouts who had been on the team for years freely admitted he carried the ceremony, and made them look like beginners. When asked how he had managed to deliver such a performance he just said " 5 years of drama classes, and 4 years of high school plays" Ah ha! I have a coach! Nope, He says he is off to some out of state collage in the fall. Arrrrrg! But it was cold up there boys, I'm from western New York, and Maryland weather seldom bothers me, but the Pre is held up on a ridge and the wind just kept blowing harder and harder, and I was sitting very still at the drum so as not to draw attention, as a scouter I really should not even be drumming, but there was simply no one else there. We had 5 scouts that makes the four speaking parts and one torch bearer. Now our chapter is so small, we have joint ordeals with a nearby chapter, we went first Friday night 8:45-9:30. they were slated for the 9:45-10:30 slot. We finished up about 9:40 and I told my boys who were starting to shake from the cold to go in, get warm, get some coffee or something, I'll stay and keep an eye on the 15 blazes (modified tikki torches) until the other team get here. They scuttled off and I sat back down to wait, 9:50 no team, 10:00 still no team, about 10:10 I could feel my self going hypo, so I got up and grabbed the two small deerskins (with hair) we like to hang up because they look "Indian-ish" and wrapped my self up them. Slowly warmed up a bit. About 10:25 the other team showed up, too cold to yell at them ( not my team anyway) I thankfully stood up to head back to the warmness of the lodge and some coffee if there was any left.. "Ummm sir? could you drum for us? please?" Their team had only 4 members, and their advisor stayed back at the lodge. "gathered now to help and serve" " Sure, but I am keeping the deerskins" I did not drum very well, drumstick kept slipping in my numbed fingers. Was well after 11:00 when we got back to the lodge, told my team "good job" and headed for the kitchen, the cook crew had been waiting for us ( God bless 'em) and the cracker barrel and coffee was most welcome indeed. After I thawed out a bit I looked around for the other advisor, but I think he had gone to bed.

Well, we have the bells, feathers, deerskins, drum, 15 blazes, etc,etc, all loaded up. Now off to the deep, dark woods. without wi-fi or cells. Gonna get down to about freezing temps tonight. Guess I need to stay near the "fire" See you on Sunday Oldscout

Thanks Tahawk, You made me smile, After my Ordeal I joined the team, I wanted to be the " Mighty Chief " when I asked if I could have the part the older guys just smiled a little and said " Sure thing kid, all ya gotta do is do it better than Roger does." Roger was about 6'-3" , 220 lbs. and had a booming voice. The kind that rattled windows. He just loved being Allowat. He had also practiced for years. He was good, he was very very good. I accepted a smaller part in the Friday night ceremony, without another word. I also watched Roger every Tuesday night. How he moved, what words he gave more "punch", where he paused..... Everyone knew what I was doing and no one minded at all. Even Roger! The mindset was " We are here to do the best ceremony possible for the scouts, if you can do it better, the job is yours." I got better, did most of the other parts but, I was never good enough to beat Roger out for the job, but when he turned 21, I got the role After the ceremony some of the new members come up to tell me how "awesome" I looked. I thanked 'em but couldn't help but think " Kid, you have no idea what awesome is. I do and it's not me"

Interesting to see this topic back again, scoutson #4 is on the ceremonies team for our little chapter ( has about a dozen active members) and we have managed to get the brotherhood ceremony moved to 7:30pm. None of the under 21 members have ever seen an after dark ceremony. I hope its the start of a trend. For what it is worth, my Ordeal ceremony started about 8:30 on October 4, 1974. and I can state for a fact that I was cold, tired, and hungry. but it was one of the coolest things I had ever seen. the team ( there hadto be about 20 of them) practiced year round just for these two weekends, and man did they put on a show! The beadwork was amazing, the parts done from memory, the movements were smooth, and that was the biggest fire I had ever seen! In short I was so caught up, I plain forgot I was hungry untill it was all over

Welcome back mgood, You are not alone many of us stopped scouting for a year or two or 10 or 20. Then came back when we could. Be warned! the hills are steeper. the sleeping pads thinner, and the creaking joints tend to give us away when stalking animals. But the smiles on scouts faces when they reach the top of a mountain ( of any sort ) are still there, so are the sunsets, and the good friends made around the campfire. Oldscout

Jason, glad to see I'm not alone. When I go for a walk in the woods/fields I want to be able to identify every bird, tree, track, bug etc ....as well as understanding their uses and/or habits. Will I ever get there? Nope. I don't have the 20-30 years of free time it would take (and that's just in my neck of the woods) Will I stop trying? No again I just love it when a tenderfoot shows me a "cool track" he found in the mud. Then we can figure out what made it together.

Petey, I too grew up in that area and spent a fair amount of time at the mall where the Lyons sisters were last seen. I know its been in the news again because they think they may ( at long last) have a good idea where they were taken. But things have changed indeed they have. In 75 I was 16 walked and biked for miles around, to go hiking fishing etc Sometimes with my scouting buddies but most often alone I now live a little north of there but still in Maryland ( sorry SSS I'm not from Ballmor) Last summer my 16 year old son decided to walk to his friends house about 5 miles away. He had just come back from Philmont so 5 miles at sea level was nothing much. Local police saw him walking down the road, stopped him, asked where he was going, then called me. Told me I had to come and get him or they would have to take him to the police station ( for his own safety ) " Safe from exactly what?" I asked the officer when I got there. "Well he might gethit by a car or something. No sidewalks on this road you know" Now he seemed to be a nice enough fellow in his mid 20s I guess, I almost told him that my son as well as his four siblings had been walking these very same roads for 25 years or more, and had the brains to move out of the way when a car came by. But I just sighed and told scoutson to get in the car, I would drive him the rest of the way

Ah, some good stuff there. thanks much Eagle 94

Back in the '70s-'80s when I did such things we made all our own stuff. We mostly used blackfoot style for two reasons; first Hollywood had sadly pre-programmed people to think beads and feathered war bonnets whenever they heard the word " Indian" and if the cubs didn't see such stuff they came away disappointed, secondly it was fancy and being teenaged boys we liked it. We spent many an hour wrapping feathers, sewing leather, learning beadwork, studying old photos. As I remember it took over 100 hours to make our first war bonnet. I also made some very good friends, and learned to respect much of the "Indian" way of life Now days you have countless vids on how to make almost everything at the click of a mouse. and you can buy a lot of premade stuff. If you need it fast you may have no other choice. Crazycrow is your friend, Greyowl used to be pretty good as well but I hear they have gone " el cheapo" in the last few years. YIB Oldscout PS I am currently making a 20 inch drum for the dance team. as it is a lot bigger than any I made on the past and my memory of 40 years ago is a bit fuzzy, any one have any tips?

So their is a scout in my troop who has one last merit badge to earn in the next few days before he turns 18. It is Citizenship in the Community and he is having trouble with req. 4b, interview a member of your local government about an issue of concern in you area. It seems no one at town hall has time for some kid. That seems to be how they see him. Any of you old pros have some advice for a frustrated scout?

I agree "boy hood is short" But I must point out that the rank of Eagle should not be the only measure of a Scouts success in the program. Many a Scout (96%?) doesn't make Eagle, but they still learn some skills, some leadership, some friendship, etc. and in later years count it as one of the highlights of their youth. I have known a lot of scouts who would rather not spend a weekend in the woods, but they endure it just to be with their friends, who love it. But as others have rightly pointed out, scouting is largely about the outdoors. Thats where we go to let the scouts learn to do things for themselves. Two of my sons aged 15 and 17 changed troops, when the new dictatorial SM told them' my way or the highway' so I do understand how hard it can be to leave good friends behind. As dads we want the world to be fair and wonderful for our sons. Sadly it just aint always so. and all we can say is 'Life is a series of choices, time to make one" Oldscout

About 8-10 scouts from our chapter were were all gung-ho to go ( a reverse sash?! cool! ) then they saw the price tag... $800 plus. You could just see their minds racing " that's months of no gas for the car, no dinners, or movies with girlfriend (real or just hoped for), no summer camp, no... awww the heck with it." I understand that to some of us 800 isn't much, but I fear very few boys or dads for that matter, from my neck of the woods will be going. I know that renting a place that big costs a bundle (or two) Perhaps we could do something locally for the 100th.

Well, there was an " Order of the White Swastika" back in the '20s ans '30s in New York. From what I little I have read it seemed somewhat like the OA. The name was changed after Hitler came to power and the public view of the swastika changed.

Fun thread! As a certified member of the "old goat" patrol, I do indeed remember the old hot rock trick,as well as a number of others. It is worth noting that digging a hole is needed only when the rocks are so hot they are a fire/ melting hazard. Just heat a number of football sized rocks (start early- rotate often) until you can just hold them, wrap 'em up in a towel, and place them about the tent. They stay warm for hours. In the old days winter camping often meant using the big heavy Baker tents. With the front flap up and a small fire ( with reflector) going in front we were toasty warm all night Old scout

Unless o' course ye ha' a kilt! (Not that I advise telling a Scotsman that )

S'all good, Stosh

Stosh, I was trying to respond to the question of rank required ( or not ) for a POR not a question of numbers of den chiefs, Instructors, etc. For the record, "my" troop has 3 den chiefs, and two instructors, but we are not big enough to need two ASPLs yet. My hypothetical bugler contest was only to show that I want some one who can and will do the work required for the job. I would has no objection to a pair of buglers ( I love echo taps ) but right now we only have one scout who owns a bugle. It would make it somewhat difficult for the second bugler to practice. And as a one time trumpet, bugle, french horn player, I know how vital practice is. Oldscout PS. I have not read all of your 4,916 posts Stosh, but the ones I have read over the last few years, convince me that you and I are much alike in our desire to see Scouts elect their own leaders, run their own program, lead their own patrols, make ( and learn from ) their own mistakes. I am always glad to teach a scouting skill to the scouts,be it felling a dead tree or lashing, but I am much happier to stand back and watch the older scouts teach it. Not that they always do it as well as I could but that they are the ones learning to teach and lead and mature. And that I guess is why I'm still in Scouting after all these years.

Advancement is to be signed off by a "troop leader" the handbook does not specify a position or rank, but if the troop is to be scout led it follows that most of the TF to 1st class should by tested and signed off by the PL. He is the one who is spending the most time with Tommy Tenderfoot right? So it follows that when possible a PL should know the skills and know them well, ergo he should be first class. There are of course cases where that is not going to happen (a new troop, or a patrol where the only first class scout or higher is a bully or just plain lazy and everyone in the patrol knows it ). A good reason to have an ASPL around to sign off the books. As for the appointed PORs rank does not matter as long as they can (and will) do their job. If I have two scouts who want to be troop bugler, I don't look at the patches of rank on their shirts, I just hand them a bugle, close my eyes, and say "play' to the colors' the one who plays it best gets the patch. Oldscout

Welcome the the " campfire" youngster, pull up a log and set yore self down, good to hear a fresh voice. Oldscout Provided naturally that you are not a troll

If the video indeed shows that the CPB did everything right, then why are they refusing to show it? Fox may well be off on some things, ask any three witnesses what happened and you will got three slightly different stories, but a drawn gun is a very memorable thing. Its not some small detail. I had an idiot point a 303 enfield in my face once and I assure you he got my entire and complete attention. Have any of the other witnesses given any public statements yet? Oldscout

I talked with my nephew (a lodge chief in New York)a few days ago he said they were shown a preview of the new Ceremony a few months ago at a conclave. The response was 10% thumbs up,10% don't know, and 80% thumbs down. That does not fill me with optimism

Thanks guys, I guess I sorta knew that but was in a mild state of shock, there was no warning.... everything seemed fine.... I don't know what caused it and right now I'm not about to ask I think everyone of the scouts not out of town on vacation showed up in class A. for the viewing, funeral, and graveside service' Now for the car washing etc Frank I like the black strip idea how do you add it on?