Oak Tree

Once upon a time a court jester decided to entertain the court. Orange trees grew around the castle. "I'll give 100 pieces of gold to anyone who brings me a green orange", he said. Several people ran outside and picked some green oranges off the tree. They brought them in and offered them to the jester. "Ah", the jester said, "that's not a green orange. All oranges are orange." Oak Tree

Ok, that question seems like it has a pretty clear answer. It can't possibly be camping only, because only three of the activities have to involve camping. We consider any troop or patrol activity to count, just as the wording would seem to clearly imply (no, it's more than 'imply', it states it right out). Your SM is definitely adding to the requirements here. Going to the waterpark, or the ballpark, or on a service project should all count as activities. How about my original question - how quickly did your boys make First Class? I'm guessing it takes a little while longer if only campouts are counted. Oak Tree

Eamonn, You're right, it does seem a bit hypocritical to say that you don't need to follow the rules you've been given, but you'd like to add a bunch of rules for other people to follow. I personally don't see the need for a bunch of bylaws, although I have no objection to a unit procedure manual (e.g. our dues are $X, when we go camping we pay for it through some method, here's how we do Scout accounts). I don't know if you have someone particular in mind in your statement (I don't think I'm the target), but I'll take a stab at answering the question anyway. A local unit may find that certain national rules, crafted to cover a million boys, do not apply perfectly in their situation. But they may find that they do need to have another rule or two that do. This might appear to be an awkward ethical position, or maybe it's just adapting the rules to cover the actual situations the unit finds itself in. Oak Tree

Ooooohhhh, this is great! Now I'm duplicitous. But still courteous. And all those packs that don't have complete uniforms as their policy? Duplicitous! Boys' Life climbers/editors? Duplicitous! Maybe some people do ignore the rules because they are inconvenient. I think most rules that are thoughtfully overruled at the local level are done so because the leaders have judged that the rules do not achieve their intended purpose, or may actually interfere with delivering a quality program to the boys. "All you boys, stop having fun!" It could be that many volunteers are actually trying to deliver the best program they can for their Scouts. I think I'll go with that assumption. Oak Tree

Fuzzy Bear, I just wanted to say I absolutely love your postings. And you're right, this discussion is clearly based around Scout socks. Any unit that doesn't include Scout socks as part of their official uniform should have their charter pulled just as if they'd said they won't follow the Youth Protection guidelines. And many units actually do document that their unit uniform does not include the socks, and they publish it for people to see. Did anyone else see Boys' Life this month? All those climbers with no helmets? Oak Tree

Our pack and troop have also had separate CORs for much of their history. If there is a requirement that they be the same person, our council certainly doesn't enforce it. Oak Tree

I think there are 120 merit badges right now. That would mean that 19 palms would be the maximum number that a Scout could earn, assuming he had his Eagle by 13 years, 3 months of age (and assuming that I have my facts and my math correct). I wouldn't be surprised if someone has done it. I found this question in the Scouting archives: http://www.scoutingmagazine.org/issues/9811/d-lett.html The kind of information you seek, however, is not readily available, because the Boy Scouts of America does not keep records, nor do councils, on Eagle Palms or the total number of merit badges earned by any one Scout. Oak Tree

Hi Eamonn, I'll give you my answer, which you probably won't like. Where do they get the right or authority? They get it from being free agents in the universe. We've been endowed by our Creator with the ability to make judgements. That's where it starts...where does it end? I'd say it ends with the underlying principles - thou shalt not harm a child nor allow him to be harmed. I suspect most adults have had to have this discussion with their kids, at least with respect to the speed limit laws. It seems a very small minority of cars actually travel at that limit, and most people can't reasonably claim to routinely not notice that they're actually exceeding the limit. So what do I tell my kids? I tell them that the legislature passed a speed limit, even knowing that people wouldn't follow it. The police actually seem to enforce a higher limit, at a speed that they judge to be unsafe. I try to travel at the speed of prevailing traffic, a speed I judge to be safe, which also generally seems to be within the police's definition. Oak Tree

So how quickly do you all see your the most active of your new Scouts reaching First Class? I think our troop had a couple at about the six-month mark this year. Oak Tree

I'd also say 'no' to Eamonn's question. I've known many, many leaders who would wink at socks, but would not allow boys to violate the life jacket rule. The rules were made by people, in order to achieve certain ends. Most adults have reached a point where they can apply their judgement to the rules and decide which rules are most important to follow, and which ones may not be absolutely necessary under the circumstances. I had a friend who worked at a pizza delivery store. Their rule was that if the customer wasn't satisfied with the pizza, they didn't give refunds, they gave store credit - i.e. another pizza. Once they accidentally delivered a pizza that was the half-eaten staff pizza. The customer came back, was upset, and wanted his money back, and he wasn't going to take another pizza from this incompetent set of people. The store manager wouldn't give him his money back, and the customer flew into a rage. Should he have broken the rule and given the customer his money back? Oak Tree

And since the youngest age a boy can join Scouts is 10 years old, the minimum age would be 11 years, 5 months (or more technically, 11 years, 4 months, and 30 days). There would be all manner of practical obstacles to overcome in order to reach that. You'd have to have three campouts as part of the 10 troop activities in the first month. You'd also need to have Boards of Review scheduled on unusual nights - say, always the 1st of the month, which would vary in which weeknight it was, from month to month. Oak Tree

Ok, IANAL, but based on the definition above, I'd say this could easily be "sexual harassment". The definition given above included this phrase (extra words deleted): "the behavior has the effect of creating an offensive environment." If the girl was offended, then the behavior created an offensive environment. Certainly any major company that has a sexual harassment policy would consider this behavior to be sexual harassment and would want to put a stop to it immediately. But to play devil's advocate on my own position, I'll say that just because it might count as harassment doesn't mean it is (or should be) illegal. I don't think people have a right never to be offended. Some people are jerks and will offend you from time to time. Probably best to just learn to deal with it. Different levels of offense might apply to different situations. Work environments are generally pretty free of anything like this, but in social environments, I'd hope the girl could roll her eyes and walk away. Oak Tree

I guess I'd ask myself the question of what you hope to get from your CO. There seem to be many units where the CO is very hands-off, and it works fine for everyone. You only have so much time, and you have to prioritize where you spend it. It certainly is good to make sure you have cordial relations with whoever signs your paperwork, and to make sure that you have the same understanding about the relationship that they do. And in some situations, it can be beneficial to build the relationship up. But if they're happy with a hands-off relationship, and you're happy with it, I'd probably look to some other area to see how I serve the unit more effectively. Oak Tree

I'm not aware of any age guidelines on Whittling Chip, and I don't think there are any - I've looked, and if they exist, they're well enough hidden that they may as well not exist. But it is part of the Bear program, and we've told our parents it is something to be earned that year, and not before that. I'm just figuring there's probably a good reason National put it into the program at that age, and that matches up fairly well with my own observation. Oak Tree

As unit commissioner, you can only do so much. I think you're right to identify the problem, but you can only lead the horse to water. We have found that generic requests for help do not do much. While many of our parents are willing to help, most won't step forward on their own. What we've really had success with is by asking specific individuals to do specific tasks. In general they are happy to do what we're asking. We do tell parents that we expect everyone to contribute in some volunteer fashion, which helps to set expectations. Oak Tree

That's quite an official looking application form. Can you enlighten me on why you would need it? Our council store just sells the patches to anyone who wants one, no application required. Oak Tree

Our troop uses troop-based merit badge counselors. Any merit badge that some boy wants, there will be an adult in the troop willing to do the counseling. This is obviously not the "official" way, but like several others here, that's what works for us, and our council/district don't give any hint of having some other way to do it. Oak Tree

The way you describe the shop as not recording the awards sounds strange to me, and not allowable, but still, could you get around the problem like this? Buy a few extra awards at the nearby council shop, and keep them on hand. When any boy achieves rank, give him the award you have on hand, and turn in the advancement form to your local council, thereby refilling your supply. Sure, it can cost you a few bucks in inventory lying around, but it can make your life easier. Oak Tree

I'm in favor of using adult patrols as a low-key, static display. The adults do need to sign up, they need to eat, etc. Giving them a patrol name doesn't seem all that harmful. Most groups seem to do it in the right spirit, not to distract from the boys. Your mileage may vary. Oak Tree

My 2001 Cub Scout Leader Book shows the Cubmaster on the org chart as reporting to the pack committee. It also says that the Cubmaster is "appointed by the pack committee with the approval of the chartered organization". But the question you pose is only partly administrative. It's much more of a political question. Small businesses go through this frequently, when they grow big enough that the founder is no longer really qualified to run the business (depends a lot on the founder, of course, some do fine, but many fail). So how do you convince the founder that he needs to let someone else take over? It would certainly be much better if you didn't have to force him out, if someone could sit down with him and review the status of the pack, and get him to recognize the problems. In the end, you would need to have the support of the CO if you really wanted to effect a change of leadership. Would they agree, or would they stick with the current CM? Then again, if you switch CO's (technically starting a new pack with a new CO) you'd have the chance to have the new CO approve a different CM. Oak Tree

The main point of individual accounts would seem to be, in fact, to encourage people to "work their butts off." Our Troop does this, but our Pack does not. It appears the boys get to be a bit more aware of those things as they grow older. If parents were told that part of the money they raised would go directly to their son, then they might reasonably expect that money to stay with their son. I'm with Prairie_Scouter - you can offer them their money back or to let them donate it to the pack. As for encouraging people to fund raise, we usually ham it up for the Cubs, give out some awards for the top sellers, make a big deal out of thanking everyone who sells. Also, for the parents and the kids, you can go over what all the fund raisers will pay for, and how all their work makes all the plans possible. I agree that individual accounts could be a big hassle. Maybe you could also offer people a chance to donate money if they don't want to do fund raising. Oak Tree

I think many CO's are happy to provide a place for the Scouts to meet, but don't really see a need to get more involved than that. We've never had a need for our COR to do anything more for us. He's been helpful with everything we've asked, but I'd feel very awkward going back to him and telling him that now he has to go to training. Of all the people in our unit, he's really the last one I'd worry about - everyone else has significantly more to do than he does. And I'm sure there are other units where that's not the case, but that's just my perspective. Oak Tree

Here are some ideas (I like what EagleInKY wrote, too): Something on the vision of Scouting Quick highlights of big events (e.g. Pinewood Derby) Calendar for the year List of what uniform items they need Directions to the Scout store How the Committee/Den Leaders work Dues and what they pay for Contact information for the leaders Cheat sheet on insignia placement, specific to your pack How to join the pack mailing list How to get started camping And, of course, all the extra rules that your pack has Oak Tree(This message has been edited by Oak Tree)

ScoutMomAng, Most of your suggestions seem like good ones. I think that most Cub Scouts benefit from changing things up, and not making it seem like another school class. But your statement that "most ADD and ADHD children are in the near genius range" didn't ring at all true to me - it sounded like something most parents want to believe (and for all I know, yours may well be). I did a quick search and found this web site http://www.samgoldstein.com/template.php?page=postings&type=articles&id=30 that has lots of information about ADHD. The article included this quote, "Why then does it continue to be suggested anecdotally that children with ADHD fall inordinately at the higher end of the intellectual distribution?" so apparently it's a well-known phenomenon that parents believe this. It also says, "the research in this area is well-grounded, and has been generated and replicated over a twelve to fifteen-year span... There is no scientific data to suggest that children with ADHD are more intelligent nor creative." So that's the other point of view. Feel free to hold to yours. As for the original question, I'd say the good of the many has to outweigh the one. If one boy is driving away other boys, you can't let that continue. Definitely try the various suggestions, but in the end, you might have to make the call. Oak Tree(This message has been edited by Oak Tree)

Having done both sports and Scouts, and having observed/participated in both as a parent, I can say that I don't find the Scouting and sports analogy to be at all close, although I'll admit for a few similarities. Sports teams have practices and games, where the practices are entirely focused on how to become better so that you can win the games. Scouts have troop meetings and the random contest or two, but the troop meetings are not entirely focused on preparing to win the Klondike Derby (well, maybe in a troop or two they are). Sports have a limited number of players on a team, with the players competing for the starting positions, whereas everyone is welcome in Scouts. In sports, the slower or less talented player just can't keep up with the better players. In Scouts, with enough perseverance, even the clumsy kid who's not the brightest can eventually earn Eagle. In basketball, if you say you were the high scorer on the team, I have a pretty good idea that you know how to shoot. But if you say you have an Eagle, I'm not even sure you can tie a bowline. I do know that you've done a bunch of stuff at least once, and have been camping a number of times, and have stuck to the program for awhile, but beyond that... If I had to make up my own analogy, I'd say Scouting more closely resembles the other clubs that schools/churches offer - ski club, chess club, church youth groups, cycling club. Feel free to poke your own holes; Scouting does take it a bit further than these groups, with the uniforming and rank advancement. And at the elementary school level, where sports teams practice once a week and everyone plays roughly equal time, I'll grant you more similarity to Cub Scouts. But the focus on one specific set of skills is still very different from Cub Scouts. Not that one's better or worse than the other. Oak Tree