Oak Tree

And I agree that all the home school dens shouldn't be doing joint activities without the other dens. Just because they meet at the same place doesn't mean they should do another pack meeting. They could easily do den meetings. Oak Tree

Our pack has many home-schooled and public school boys, and a good set of private school boys too, and they all mix together with no apparent issues. But we don't have segregated dens, either. It would seem that by setting up the dens that way, the original leaders were creating the situation that you now see. I can tell you how we run things, but I don't know if that will help you. We do have all the dens meet at the CO on the same night, in separate rooms. (We do tell the dens they can change their meeting times to whatever they want, but none of them ever change their regular meetings.) We try to split the dens in an intelligent fashion. In particular, we always try to make sure each den has a gung-ho parent or two, so that they can help guide the den. But it could be a little tricky in your case to try to impose some change on the dens. Are any of the home-school dens unhappy? It sounds like they're all doing great. I wouldn't really want to re-mix the den membership right now. I'd probably focus on working with the public school dens, and seeing if I could bring them up to speed. Oak Tree

Where does it say that Webelos should tent with their parents? We pair up the Webelos in tents, and have them act like they're part of a patrol. The parents get to tent in the parents' area and interact with the Boy Scout parents. We try to distract the Webelos parents with some activities for them (e.g. hikes) so that they won't hover over the boys the whole time. Oak Tree

When splitting a den, I've had cases where a boy was clearly not preferred by either of the new den leaders. But they've always sighed and accepted that one of them would have to take the boy (and his parents). I've never had a case as bad as yours, though. The leader book clearly states that "A Scouting unit has the authority to determine its own youth membership on the basis of considerations such as group size or youth behavior..." "The pack committee should review repetitive or serious incidents of misbehavior in consultation with the parents of the child to determine a course of corrective action, including possible revocation of the youth's membership in the pack. When problem behavior persists, units may revoke the Scout's membership in that pack." My policy is to support my valuable den leaders as much as possible. I'd hate to try to force this boy on them. But you certainly want to make sure your committee agrees with you. I'd talk to the CC and try to get him to handle the problem. Most parts of being CM are better than this. Oak Tree

When I first came across these forums, I was impressed by how much relevant material there was, on a whole host of Scouting topics. I was also a little bit disappointed in the bickering that surrounded some of the topics. So I do appreciate that the forum communications are going to stay around long-term in searchable format. The more helpful they can be, the better, and lots of posts with no useful content don't add to the value at all. I support the moderators in their attempt to raise the level of discourse. Oak Tree

I can see where you might have some small short-term effect that people feel like they already know what's going on, and therefore don't feel like they need to attend the meeting (not clear exactly what meeting you're talking about here - do families normally attend your troop meetings?) But I think long-term, it can't hurt you to have people feel like they're in the loop. It's the ones who feel like they're out of the loop who are more likely to drift away. Hard to conduct a double-blind experiment to validate this, but that's my take. Oak Tree

There is a book that you can purchase, but the requirements are also widely available on the internet. The book is titled "Cub Scout Academics and Sports Program Guide", and in the catalog it's C34299B and costs $6.25. For the requirements on the internet, see http://usscouts.org/advance/cubscout/a-s.html, for example. The book has some additional information beyond the requirements. Oak Tree

JOTA is a good one, thanks. For the historic trails, it appears the award itself is limited to Boy Scouts and up (see http://www.scouting.org/forms/34408.pdf), even though the trails are approved for hiking by Cub Scouts. I saw the Good Turn for America web site before, but I don't see any award mentioned anywhere on it. I agree that it's a great program to participate in. Thanks for digging those up. Oak Tree

I've been asked what are all the available Cub Scout awards, and what their requirements are. After searching around for awhile, I've concluded that it's not an easy, clear-cut question. It would be handy if there were a "Cub Scout Requirements 2005" book, but I'm not aware of such a publication. Here is my list of known awards, along with some questions. I found some additional information located at unofficial web sites, but I'm trying to compile only official information for my answer. All the following are from the handbooks: Tiger Totem, Tiger Patch, Tiger Tracks Bobcat Wolf Badge, Arrow Points Bear Badge, Arrow Points Whittling Chip Webelos Badge, Compass and Points Arrow of Light Religious Awards World Conservation Award Leave No Trace Belt Loops and Pins And these are from the national website, http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=ca, click on Awards 75th anniversary Outdoor Activity Emergency Preparedness BSA Physical Fitness Award Heroism Awards so there are no real questions about those. Then there are the following awards that aren't specifically listed in either of the two above resources. Recruiting strip - clearly official Summertime award - also official - http://www.scouting.org/forms/33748.pdf Interpreter Strip - listed as an optional requirement in the Language & Culture belt loop requirements, so it's official Family award - can't find an official web site, but it's in the book International Activity - national web site says each council will have their own requirements. (see http://www.scouting.org/international/recognitions.html#iap) Crime Prevention - can't find official national site, but do find official council information for some councils (e.g. http://www.chicagobsa.org/forms/cub_crime.pdf). Does this apply to all councils? Is there official national info somewhere? Donor Awareness - no information on national site, but it does appear on some council web sites (e.g. http://www.sfbac.org/awards/aw_cs_donorawareness.cfm) Is this an approved national award? Where would it say so? Conservation Good Turn - this activity is mentioned on the national site (http://www.scouting.org/factsheets/02-519.html), but I can only find reference to patches on unofficial sites. Is there an official award for this, or is it just an activity? Are there any other awards? I can probably go with the information I've found - most of the references seem to be semi-official. I'd like to have them confirmed, and it would be nice to have an official reference. The only really open question is what are our council's requirements for the International Activity Award. usscouts.org is a pretty good site (http://usscouts.org/advancementTOC.asp). But it doesn't list the summertime award, the family award, or the conservation good turn award, so it's possible that there are other awards that it doesn't list, either. Plus, of course, it's not official. Thanks for any help. Oak Tree

Good luck! Oak Tree

The shirt color is optional. But the oval Webelos badge and the Arrow of Light patch are only approved on the tan shirt. I'm all for using your best judgement in deciding how to apply the rules, and there are no uniform police, so do what you think is best. But if the boy is going to cross into Boy Scouts, it seems like you may as well buy the tan shirt. Here are the quotes from the Webelos book: There are two different Webelos rank badges... 1. A tan oval-shaped cloth badge with an embroidered Webelos symbol. This badge is worn on the tan uniform shirt. ... After earning the Arrow of Light Award, a Webelos Scout who chooses to wear the tan shirt and oval Webelos badge may wear the Arrow of Light Award below the left pocket, as it is worn in Boy Scouting. This is consistent with the Insignia Guide diagram Oak Tree

Another suggestion from an attorney in our pack was to have the trailer owned by an individual. That individual would sign a power of attorney, giving the right to the pack to reassign ownership if it ever wanted to. I don't know the specific answer to your question about established formats, but surely there's a standard form for creating a 501©3. I don't see any reason why your proposed organization would be unique. Oak Tree

Our recent summer camp doesn't do blue cards. They do give us a list of the accomplishments that each boy has completed. These lists are uniformly egregiously exaggerated. We have each Scout review the list, to make sure he's getting credit for what he actually did. We take the Scout's word for what he's completed. The Scouts all tell the truth (as far as we can tell) and claim far fewer accomplishments than the camp gave them credit for. Oak Tree

FScouter, The current Den Chief Handbook says "This is a job that will make you a leader for Tiger Cubs, Wolf and Bear Cub Scouts, or Webelos Scouts" (p. 1, ©2004 edition, 33211B) My 2001 Cub Scout Leader Book does have the quote that you give, about Tiger dens not having Den Chiefs, but I think I'll go with the Den Chief Handbook. Those dens wouldn't be the first den that I'd assign Den Chiefs to, but if I have boys who want to be the Den Chief for a Tiger den, and the Den Leader wants to have a Den Chief, well, I don't think I'll object. Oak Tree

"Yes, but several of you do not support the BSA on anything" Well, this just saddens me to see this attitude attributed to myself and others. I do support the BSA on many, many things. My boys have a great time in Scouts. Our pack is thriving and growing. Our troop is thriving and growing. The boys and the families have a great time together. Many of my sons' good long-term friends are the ones they've met in Scouts. Many of my friends are their parents. We have a great time doing the activities, including some wonderful camping trips. I'm glad I've had the opportunity to work with these people. Our district volunteers do a nice job. Our DE is great. Our Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmasters are excellent. I support them fully. My assumption has always been that the great majority of people on these forums do support the BSA on most things, or they wouldn't continue to be involved in Scouting. There are more things that unite us than divide us. I'm sorry that you post the things you do, at the times when people discuss what they don't like about the program, or how they might like things to be different. Maybe you're right, that we could spend more time discussing the things we do like. I'll try to keep that in mind. I'd love it if everyone *cough*Bob*cough* would work to make the forums a more positive place. Oak Tree

Well, several of us don't seem to support it. But I guess we're all irrational. What harm could come from adding all kinds of lame requirements? Why not say the boys must wear their uniform to school one day? How could that be bad? Why was the recruiting requirement ever dropped? Obviously a bunch of irrational people thought that it would be good to drop it. I know boys who will think this is a really stupid requirement. I don't think it's a good thing to have boys thinking that about the requirements. Put me down in the "seems like a desparate move by National" camp. Oak Tree

So seriously, the BSA won't defend an untrained leader? Wow. That'd be a pretty strong reason to get trained. Is there any documentation of that fact? And is the standard that "a reasonable effort" has to be made, or does any violation of the G2SS void the coverage? Going 1 mph over the speed limit is a violation of the G2SS, but most people don't regard going 1 mph over the speed limit as an unreasonable safety risk. Swimming in water 13 ft deep? Two cars travelling together ("in convoy")? Oak Tree

FScouter's answer is certainly more reassuring from a liability point of view. Bob's answer is what scares off people. How to tell which one is true? Take all available training? Follow every policy in G2SS precisely? But it's exactly that one time that a policy isn't being followed that is most likely to be the time something goes wrong. In fact, I'd guess that most accidents involve some combination of leaders who aren't trained and/or some violation of the G2SS. Has the BSA not defended any of those people? I'd love to see actual case studies of Scouting accidents, what went wrong, and what the outcome was from a legal point of view. There are obviously a bunch of these cases around. It would be very educational from a safety perspective, and it would also shed some light on the liability issue. Oak Tree

acco40, your statement used to be true. The Arrow of Light was previously listed as placed on the left pocket flap. But that is no longer true in the more recent editions of the Insignia Guide (2003-2005) or the Webelos book. It's now in the same place as in Boy Scouts. Both diamond and oval Webelos badges are available, but the Webelos book says that the oval badge and the Arrow of Light patch only go on the tan shirt. It's all like arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin as far as my pack is concerned...the boys have always received the award at their last Cub Scout meeting. But if someone wanted to get it earlier, they could. And they could wear it, as long as they'd moved up to the tan shirt, where they'd put it below the pocket. Oak Tree

Apollo 13 Oak Tree

Oh good grief. Shakespeare didn't "say" the phrase "Let's kill all the lawyers!" He wrote a play where a character by the name of Dick the Butcher says the phrase to a mob. I think the idea is it's to show how stupid the idea would be. I used to think lawyer jokes were funny until I got to know a number of lawyers. We've received great volunteer help from people who just happen to be lawyers. Oak Tree

Most of the youth who do drink seem to have figured out that it's a "Don't ask, don't tell" kind of thing with the authorities. Here's a site with some interesting statistics: http://www.health.org/govpubs/rpo990/ So 40% of 10th graders are drinking once a month. And 89% say alcohol is readily available to them. So 40% of kids are being abused and should be reported to the authorities? Or should it just be the ones who are going to admit it? Oak Tree

Many fifth-grade boys will be at least 10 years 6 months old by September, and will therefore be eligible to earn the AoL. It does seem unlikely that the entire den would be eligible, though. Oak Tree

There are a few packs of that size in our district. They all meet in churches with large fellowship halls, so the space doesn't seem to be a problem. Our own pack is about 70, and we've decided to limit the size to 80, because that's about all our facilities can hold. There are some packs and troops around here with over 100 boys. Some of them have pretty much stopped recruiting - just through word of mouth they get enough new Scouts. Can you deliver a quality program at this size? Obviously lots of folks see the answer as yes. It does take more logistical support, but in order for the units to get that big in the first place, they probably had pretty good support across the board. The feel of a large unit is definitely different from a small unit. Different boys might prefer different environments. Oak Tree

I'm still seeing the glitch. But no matter. I fully accept that the moderators would want a private area to discuss personnel issues. While it would be great fun to look over their shoulders and see who was arguing which point, I also have the sense that if I did get to see things, it wouldn't be nearly so juicy as I might imagine. So anyway, no objections here. If the big perk of being a moderator is that you get to see the secret forums, then I think the pay doesn't match the work effort, and we'd still owe the moderators a big hand. Oak Tree