Oak Tree

Beavah, I posted a thread on this topic some time back. I hate hearing these statistics repeated at every Eagle ceremony, when they are so clearly bogus. Without knowing how many years the average boy stays with a troop, we can't calculate the real number. I suspect the average is lower than what you use in your example, but I'd still think the real number is 15-20%. And the thing that really irritates me is that the BSA should clearly know this number, but doesn't actually tell us, but instead perpetuates a myth. I do not find their number to be trustworthy. And it's on their web site at 4%. http://www.scouting.org/factsheets/02-516.html Oak Tree

1. We give the boys general guidance. Usually they'll listen to our advice about whether a class would be too boring. They won't always like the advice about whether they're too young for an exciting activity. If it's not a camp rule, just a recommendation, then we'll let the Scouts ignore the recommendation if they want to. If it's a camp rule, then we won't sign the Scout up for something he's not qualified for. 2. I'd advise ignoring this altogether. First I'd say you should just leave it up the Scout, and secondly, I'd advise that they ignore it as well. Our camp has a similar list that ends up with little bearing on the reality of the course. I'd say they should go to camp, and see what they actually do in camp, and finish up any extra work afterwards. Theoretically the camp should give you an accurate list of what was actually accomplished in camp, although this seems to be much more theory than fact at many camps. It should be up to the individual Scout to make sure that he ends up with an accurate blue card for partials, although I'd recommend that you help create these for them as you debrief them the meeting after camp. Oak Tree

Very few of the troops in our area wear them. At summer camp there will alway be a couple troops that have them, and they stand out as being different. Oak Tree

Our pack doesn't use this song, and I wouldn't encourage it with Cub Scout age boys. The troop does use it, though, and they seem to have a great time with it. They seem to take it in the spirit of good fun, so I have no objection to their continuing to use it. Oak Tree

Lisa'bob, Your posts on the forum thus far have shown a great deal of insight, so I'll trust that if you perceive there to be a problem here, there might be one. But I'm not really sure it would stem from the question of whether or not the leader has a boy in the pack. To your points: > 1. ...If these families care enough to have their boys involved, then they should figure out how to get involved... That's true whether or not the existing leaders have boys in the pack. I agree it's important for the leaders to delegate out the work and get others involved, but that's true regardless. > 2. I'm concerned that one person might end up doing the bulk of the work and others will feel they can free ride on that person's efforts.... Also potentially true whether or not the leader has a boy in the pack. I've certainly known plenty of instances where the Cubmaster had a son in the pack and still did all the work. > 3. ...Is asking "old" leaders to return setting up a situation where entrenchment and stale thinking are more likely? This one could be true. But this really gets back to the question of who is the best available person for the job. If you have another, better, candidate, go with them. And 'better' might mean 'fresher ideas'. > 4. ...may ruffle some feathers. This is a pragmatic concern... This seems like an honest concern. This still has nothing to do with whether or not the leader has a boy in the pack, but it certainly might deal with the question of whether he's the best person for the job. > 5. They might be over loaded...or there might be a conflict of interests... They shouldn't be a UC for the pack and the CC at the same time, that's definitely true. As to whether they're overloaded, that's going to depend a lot on the person. Certainly many people are involved with both a pack and a troop and do fine. And again, I'm not sure it really has much to do with whether they have a boy in the pack. So I guess in summary, I'd say you might indeed have valid concerns about this person serving as CC. There might be a better candidate. But I probably wouldn't phrase it with the issue of whether or not they have a boy in the pack. Oak Tree

Lisa'bob, I'd say that it would depend entirely on the person involved. But if they were a good leader before, I'd be happy to have them stay with it. Oak Tree

Trevorum, I don't have access to whatever official records you're looking at - I'm just going by the council websites. The Five Rivers Council site starts off with "Serving the Youth of the Southern Tier of New York and the Northern Tier of Pennsylvania". Check it out for yourself at http://www.fiverivers.org/main_page.html All in good fun. Oak Tree

I'm a qualified range officer for Cub Scouts. The book "Shooting Sports for Cub Scouting" lists the training required to be a range officer, and it has Cub Scout specific items in the training, with sections like "Training Cub Scouts", "Tiger Cubs and Archery", and "Cub Scout Shooting Sports Award". Having taken this training, I felt comfortable overseeing Cubs, and I'm sure most of it applies to Boy Scouts, but it does seem like a different class. And the gun training was with BB-guns, which seems very different. I would have thought that separate training was required for Boy Scouts. Oak Tree

Trevorum, Thanks for looking that up. The two additional councils in Pennsylvania are Allegheny Highlands and Five Rivers. Both look to be headquartered in New York, but both include multiple counties in Pennsylvania. And they both have active web sites, so I don't think they've merged. So does Pennsylvania move into sole ownership of second place? Oak Tree

Actually, Cub Scouts are allowed to wear the blue belt with the green pants. Their belt loops won't fit on the green belt. I see the Scout with the Quality Unit patch on the left sleeve, but the leader immediately in front of him has the Quality unit on the right sleeve. And I do see the merit badge sash on the belt (which still seems like a convenient way to wear it in certain situations). I'll choose to take the mistakes as meaning that there are more important things in life. Oak Tree

Trevorum, The last time I looked, Pennsylvania had 21 councils. How many do your data show? Several of Pennsylvania's councils cross state lines, so I guess it might depend on how you count. I've often wished that National would create a big U.S. map that had outlines of all the councils and stick it up on the web. It's surprisingly (at least to me) difficult to find official council listings. I like trivia, too...it would be interesting to know things like the largest council (population and/or area) and the smallest. Oak Tree

Ah yes, the famous "adding to the requirements" discussion. Despite the fact that JollyMon has indicated from the start that he's not adding to the requirements, a bunch of people jump in to tell him he can't add to the requirements. Interpreting a requirement is not adding to it. Now, if he'd said, "We have a hard and fast rule that no more than 25% of the work can be done by the Scout", that would be adding to the requirement. Saying that we expect other people to do most of the work because in order to demonstrate leadership you actually need to lead people, that's not adding. That's just saying what leadership is. Or at least a typical interpretation of it. I agree, I'd be concerned about this project. I'd like to go back to the proposal and see what the Scout anticipated in terms of getting others to help out. Was this how it was planned from the beginning? If not, what went wrong? If it was, and it was approved, then there must have been some other aspects of leadership involved. I'd start by asking him how he showed leadership, and follow up in depth on each of his responses. Oak Tree

I guess I don't see it so black and white. Is it a bad idea to enforce some policies and not others? Some may think so, but policemen do it every day. There are minor breaches of the law, and major ones. And there are things that seem illegal and wrong all of the time, and other things only seem wrong in certain situations. And policemen let minor violations go by all the time. That's how I feel about the Scouting policies, too. I'm fine with holding to the spirit of the rules, but holding to the letter of the rules seems often to defy common sense. The most important rule is to use good judgement. That can be true whether something is ok by the rules, but clearly unsafe, or prohibited by the rules, but easily judged safe. I have a pretty clear grip on risk analysis and try to keep a good safety margin in all our activities. But the actions required to maintain that safety margin certainly vary with circumstances. Somehow I feel like we've had this discussion before on this board, though... Oak Tree

Respect: 1. To feel or show deferential regard for; esteem. 2. To avoid violation of or interference with When I say I will respect the beliefs of others, I'm using meaning #2, which is the way I perceive the Scout law to intend. When I say "respect must be earned", I'm using definition #1. Oak Tree

Eamonn, I know what you mean. It's Friends of Scouting time again, and the parents in my pack are largely against spending any time at a pack meeting (or anywhere else, really) on this item. The Council says that it costs $120 for each boy in Scouting. Well, we have 70 boys in the pack, and I'm quite confident we aren't getting $8400 worth of service. Like you, I'm pretty sure we could run the pack just fine with no DE at all. I don't have any idea about the council finances, but I suspect that some part of the average expense goes into the camps. And the pack doesn't really use the camps at all. Well, we camped there once, and found it below the standards of the state parks that we typically use. And those parks are pretty cheap, too. I'm not sure what the best answer is. I'm sure that in our area it would be better just to charge what it actually costs, and not be hitting people up for donations all the time. Oak Tree

I think it's a sad thing that either phrase you use, "Happy Holidays", or "Merry Christmas", someone can choose to be offended. Both choices are a way to express good wishes for the day and the season. I used to be able to say either one with nary a thought for the implications. Now, whichever one I pick, I feel like I'm choosing sides in a culture war. I think you did fine. Let it roll off your back. There are more important things in life. Oak Tree

We also don't tie crossover to the B&G. We do the banquet in February, and do crossover in March. We try to use the Blue and Gold to celebrate all of Scouting, including whatever we've done that year, and we usually have a fair number of rank advancements to hand out at all ranks. We do normally present Arrows of Light on Crossover night, but I agree that there's nothing that would need to officially tie these together. And I can't imagine altering our schedule to allow for one Scout's awards. If they aren't ready to get it at the Blue and Gold, they can just get it the next month when they are ready. Oak Tree

I do not believe there is an official "policy" on this topic. But the Cub Scout Program Helps 2005-2006 says "Planning for den involvement in pack meetings is most important. Each den should have their participation scheduled in advance." I would take that as implying that normally most or all dens should be participating in each pack meeting. You also have to be flexible about things. For very large packs, it might be difficult to have every den do something every month. And for any pack, in certain months, you might have special activities that would pre-empt some of the skits/songs. But in general, I'd say your instincts are right on. It's great to give the boys a chance to get up front. Oak Tree

For the last two years, we've had about 8 boys cross over. In both cases the numbers have actually grown since then, as they've brought friends in. I think there's been one drop out. But in the years before that there was tremendous attrition. I believe it was because the troop was so disorganized that it was no fun at all for the new boys - violating rule number 1 above. The SM called it "boy-led" and thought it was working correctly, but the results sure didn't bear that out. Oak Tree

I interpret overnight camping to allow for multiple nights, and so do all the other packs I've talked to. In fact, it hardly even ever comes up as a question, never, actually, other than on this board. I did take BALOO training and don't remember anything about one-night-only rules. Our Webelos dens do lots of weekend campouts and have great times. Not that we've ever gone halfway across the country... And yes, we do file trip permits, and council has never complained. They let us camp for multiple nights at their camps. Evidence here is strongly in favor of multiple night camping (the old Webelos book specifically allowed it). Your mileage may vary. Oak Tree

Prairie_Scouter, We agree on the two questions in the original post. But on the side question of requiring parental attendance, I'm not sure you've got that one right. The Guide to Safe Scouting says "In most cases, each youth member will be under the supervision of a parent or guardian. In all cases, each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult." Certainly it's preferable for the parents to be there, but under extenuating circumstances we'll allow another parent to take responsibility for a boy, which seems to be in line with these guidelines. Oak Tree

You can have one adult per car, so long as there is more than one Cub Scout in the car (no one-on-one contact). But each cub must have his own seat belt. Oak Tree

Lisa'bob, To answer one of your questions, our council will take donations on behalf of a unit and give that money to the unit. So it would seem to be possible. Oak Tree

I explained the blue card system to a new Scout. He thought about it for a minute, and then asked if the best way to deal with this problem would be to ask for all 120 blue cards as soon as you start Scouts, and then everything you do will be able to count. I agreed with him that that would be one way to make sure you got credit for all your activities. I don't think he'll actually do anything about it, but I do see where his idea makes some kind of theoretical sense, and is similar to SeattlePioneer's suggestion. Might be a little much to manage, though. Oak Tree

Den Chief training can be done for both adults and Den Chiefs. At our last district training session, the class was maybe 2/3 Boy Scouts, and 1/3 Scouters. It was the one class that had the broadest possible audience...Boy Scouts, Boy Scout Leaders, Cub Scout Leaders. If you don't have the opportunity to take the class, grab the Den Chief Handbook. It'll give you a pretty good overview. Oak Tree