Oak Tree

I don't mind the format so much. While all the things Gern mentions would be nice, I'm ok with the simple straightforward experience. (And you can ignore obnoxious users.) But it is slow. I would much appreciate a faster response. Oak Tree

ChuckSt8er, The main advice I have on succession planning is "Do it." You are well ahead of the curve in the fact that you are trying to figure out now who your replacement will be. When I was CM, I had three ACMs in a pack your size. I'd try to make sure at least one or two of them were potential replacements. I didn't recruit them as ACMs specifically to become CM, and I didn't tell them I wanted a new CM when I recruited them as an ACM. But after they've done the ACM role for awhile, then you find a quiet place sometime when you know he's in a good mood and enjoying Scouting, hand him the CM patch, yell, "Tag! You're it!", and run away laughing madly. No, wait, that wasn't exactly it. I told him I'd be stepping down and asked if he'd take on the role. As for what I looked for - someone who was willing to stand up in front of the group and have fun, someone who was organized behind the scenes, someone who was known to the CO, and someone who had enough good sense to deal with the other parents and any issues that might come up. The main person whose advice I sought was that of the CC. Oak Tree

I'd let them both go ahead and try an Eagle project if they want to. To be honest, it's hard to imagine the second boy wanting to do that. My actual answer would depend on more of the situation - how long has it been since they earned Life and what all have they done in that time? But my default option would not be to stand in their way. Oak Tree

I'd probably vote 'no' on someone with a felony conviction within the last year. I'd want to see evidence of improvement. But it would depend on the details of the case. I'm not a big fan of zero-tolerance rules. It seems like soon it will be a felony for bringing scissors to school. SSScout - on your question #1, about 5% of boys who are registered Boy Scouts this year will earn their Eagle. If the average boy is in Scouts for 3 years (and I don't know this number, it's just a guess), that would mean that 15% of the boys who ever register as Boy Scouts would earn Eagle. Oak Tree

Eamonn, There's absolutely no reason for you to be sorry about the way you feel. We all have the jobs that we've volunteered for, and there's no need to worry about saying, good-naturedly, "I'm not involved in those decisions. You should really talk to Sergio Flavinhaus if you want more detail." I've moved on from various volunteer positions, and I don't mind redirecting the occasional question. I figure it just means I was viewed as a valuable resource, and I'm sure the same is even more true in your case. I'm sure things can be depressing at times, but there's no reason to let the district get you down. Just do your best for the ship. Oak Tree

I wonder if the topic has some influence on the ad content? We could try spinning off a new thread on llamas and see if it has any effect. Hunt, you've got me considering what you could use a llama for in terms of earning BSA awards. Certainly it would work as part of the llama husbandry merit badge, although that would likely be incorporated as the 'llama option' of the Animal Science merit badge. You could own llamas as a business, and you could offer llama cart rides, or llama pack animals for rent, or sell llama wool. That could work as part of American Business, Entrepreneurship, and Salesmanship. You could certainly use llama fiber as part of the Textile merit badge. And you could certainly use a llama as your pet for the Pets merit badge. And of course there's the Veterinary Medicine merit badge, where you could prepare a program of health maintenance for your llama. For cinematography or photography you could take pictures of your llama. The surprising thing is that there doesn't appear to be any way to utilize a llama in earning the Animal Science merit badge. I guess you might come across one guarding the sheep upon a visit to a sheep farm, but there's no requirement you can use that for. And I think the most obvious use of a llama in earning an award would be the 50-miler award. The application specifically says that "(In some areas pack animals may be used.)" The word 'llama' actually appears on the national Scouting site. Their survey of council high adventure types includes an option for horse/llama packing. http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/directory/submit.cgi Oak Tree

Well, it's quite a tangent, but I certainly didn't see the kool-aid reference as an insult. We use this phrase all the time at work to indicate that people are getting together in a group and engaging in groupthink, where they all reinforce one another's opinions and don't engage in critical thinking to realize that they are actually, for example, developing a product that no one will actually want to use. It's generally used good-naturedly, but sometimes with a hint of exasperation. It does not suggest that the people are drug users - it is using kool-aid (and in particular, the decision to drink it) as a metaphor for the decision to support whatever the actual (perceived) wrong-headed decision is. At least, that's how I took it. Oak Tree

Nicely phrased. I love the clever accuracy of the wording. But if you think some people find the term "Uniform Police" to be overly negative, wait until you see what happens when you call people "Uniform Pharisees." Oak Tree

There's only so much you can do. No matter what kind of program you run, there will almost always be dropouts. People have lots of choices, and they prefer different things, and some of them will choose something other than Scouting. Running a great program is a good way to keep them in, making sure it's fun, and that the boys get recognition. Working with the parents to keep them engaged as well is important. Oak Tree

All of Lisabob's suggestions are good. Those are the basics that we do with our Webelos as well. Sometimes you can make things a bit more exciting by making it a competition - which group can build a fire that burns through a string first? (or fewest matches, or whatever). You might be able to build some impressive catapults for the Engineer requirement - who can throw the farthest, or the most accurate? Split the Webelos up with different Boy Scout partners and let them compete together as teams. Which team can teach knots the best to their Webelos? I think you do want the Webelos to see some of the fun that the troop has. Don't just focus on getting requirements done. Oak Tree

I've heard the "no camouflage" rule other places as well, but I can't imagine that it's an actual rule. I expect that the actual regulation being mentioned is in the Insignia Guide, page 2. "Imitation of United States Army, Navy, or Marine Corps uniforms is prohibited, in accordance with the provisions of the organization's Congressional Charter." So I guess we can presume that imitating USAF uniforms would be fine, but the rule does suggest that completely imitating the Army's all-camouflage uniform wouldn't be allowed. Camouflage vests, though? Sounds ok to me. I do agree that there's a little bit of a military connotation to camouflage in some places. In others, I'm sure it's more of a hunting thing. Heck, the whole Boy Scout uniform has a little bit of a military feel to it. Those rows of knots look a lot like medals. Oak Tree

Eamonn, I'm with uz2bnowl. It's very hard to tell someone else what will really make them happy. Your son has told you something that is important to him - and it's for an activity you fully support. Sounds like a pretty good deal. Enjoy him and encourage him while you can. If your uniform police conscience continues to nag at you, go ahead and register him as something - merit badge counselor, ASM, whatever - and make him legal. But it doesn't seem necessary to me - being active in OA seems like enough of a reason to wear the uniform. Oak Tree

Ed, I don't know how many boys earn First Class, but I've got to believe it's a substantial majority. I do know that way more than 5% of boys earn Eagle, and every time I hear someone repeat that bogus information it grates on my nerves. It's on the official BSA site, too, so it's not you - it's the National organization that isn't very trustworthy with their information. About 50,000 out of one million Scouts will earn Eagle this year. And another 50,000 will earn it next year, too. It will be a different 50,000, but it won't be a different million boys. Most of the potential pool will be the same. Without knowing how long the average boy stays in Scouts, it's not possible to tell what percentage of boys really earns Eagle, but I'm betting it's more like 15-20%. Still a significant achievement, but not as rare as it's portrayed. Oak Tree

Thanks to everyone who has responded. We decided to go with a former Scoutmaster (had to give him something to do, I guess, since we don't have any Scoutmaster Emeritus patches), which is in line with what many of you indicate that your units do. Acco, ScoutNut, while I appreciate your attempts to enlighten me on the question of who selects whom, you can rest assured that I am quite familiar with the official documentation on the process. I had in fact talked with the IH, and he asked who we wanted for our COR, in a situation that I would assume is common. Oak Tree

We've had the discussion on our committe about whom we should ask to be our COR. Our CO is a church. Should the COR be: a) Someone in a position of responsibility in the church? This would arguably give our unit more visibility to the church leadership. The downside would be that this person may not have much time to put into actually being a COR. b) Someone more connected to the Scouting side of things (e.g. a parent)? This person may have more time, but wouldn't know any more about the CO than the rest of us. And to be honest, if I have a parent volunteer available, I have other things I could use them for. c) Someone from the CO who just lets us use their name? No real participation on either side. I know the district would like us to find d) someone who would actually fulfill the documented role of the COR by attending troop committee, pack committee, and district committee meetings. This is a pipe dream on their part, as far as I can tell. So, who do you have? And which would you recommend? Oak Tree

On the adult leader application form (http://www.scouting.org/forms/28-501.pdf), it says "All leaders must be 21 years of age or older, except assistant Scoutmaster, assistant den leaders, assistant Cubmaster, assistant Webelos den leaders, and assistant Varsity Scout coaches, who must be 18 or older." One of the position codes on the form is for merit badge counselor. This would lead me to believe that a merit badge counselor must be 21. But on the merit badge counselor information form (http://www.scouting.org/forms/34405.pdf), it says "you must be at least 18 years old." So what age limit do you use? Oak Tree

When I took IOLS, they combined half the sessions with a BALOO group. I'd think you'd be fine. Quite frankly, I find all of these courses to be aimed at a novice - and while I see the need to train novices, it can be really slow moving for experienced people. And most of the attendees are experienced. I always find the best part of the training session to be the contacts you make with other Scouters. You can do that fine regardless of what color of shoulder loops you wear. Oak Tree

We had this exact situation happen in 2002, under the old requirements. What can you do? In that case it would have been fairly difficult to overrule the instructor - so we let the awards stand. With most other awards it's easy enough to ask the boys to actually complete the requirements, but not with archery and BB guns, since they can't do them on their own. I'd go with the camp's statement. After that event, I was glad to see that National changed the requirements in 2003, almost seemingly in response to our experience (or maybe it was the experience of thousands like us). This, the bending of requirements, is still a common situation, where the council tries to award things without actually ensuring they are completed. Boy Scout camp can be a terrible example of this. You just need to use your judgement in each situation on the best way to handle it. Oak Tree

As mentioned above, the web site gives an unambiguous, official answer to the question: May Cub Scouts earn badges such as the 50-Miler Award or Mile Swim, BSA? Answer: Cub Scouts are not eligible to earn these awards, which are part of the Boy Scout program. Unfortunately it goes on to say All of the awards that Cub Scouts may earn are listed in their handbooks or listed on this Web site, and refers to the web site http://www.scouting.org/cubscouts/awards/youth/index.html. But that statement is clearly just wishful thinking by whoever wrote it. There are many, many official Cub Scout awards that are not listed in their handbooks, nor on that web site, but are listed in other official Scouting literature. So the question of what are official Cub Scout awards will clearly not be settled, although it appears MarkS was well aware of that. For example, the following awards do not appear on that website, and I dont think most of them appear in the handbooks (although there may be a reference here or there): Interpreter Strips Heroism/Meritorious conduct knots/medals James E. West knot Good Turn for America Conservation Good Turn BSA Family Award Summertime Award Jamboree-on-the-Air/Jamboree-on-the-Internet Donor Awareness International Activity Recruiter Strip Attendance pin and bars Service stars Crime Prevention BSA Physical Fitness The Insignia Guide is a more complete reference it includes maybe 9 or so of the above list, but even it is not complete. It is consistent in that it does not list Mile Swim as a Cub Scout award. It also doesnt list that as a Scouter award, but our summer camp hands out lots of them to Scouters. The Insignia Guide clearly has an error on BSA Lifeguard, where it only lists it as for Scouts and not Scouters, so this leads to some uncertainty about the accuracy of the other omissions. But the web site leaves no uncertainty about the mile swim. At any rate, even if its not an official Cub Scout award, theres nothing stopping you from issuing it as a pack award. Call it the Mile Swim Pack 356 award, or whatever strikes your fancy.

There was a fairly lengthy discussion of this earlier this year - see http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=132151#id_132999 I'd say the goal is to make sure that people are prepared for the conditions, and that they have a good time when camping. You need to use your judgement to decide exactly how that applies to your situation. Oak Tree

I would say no, it doesn't count. The wording is pretty explicitly for the day camp that councils run during the summer. Or at least that's my read. The main thing the award seems to be for, in fact, is attending day camp. The rest of the requirements are pretty easy and most every Scout would meet them, or could do so easily. A Scout has his entire Cub Scout career to earn that patch. If he never goes to day camp the entire time he's a Cub Scout, then I don't see any reason to bend the rules to give him that patch. When I was Cubmaster, I only gave the award to those who attended summer day camp (or Webelos resident camp), and let that serve as an incentive for the rest to attend day camp next year. Oak Tree

FScouter's suggestion is a good one, because the advancement chair won't be able to show you any official documentation to that effect. It's one of the many Scouting myths floating around. No numbers are discussed in the Insignia Guide. Oak Tree

greenSM, You ask "Why are so many scouters so intent on bending and distorting not only the rules but the entire program? " First off, I'll say that I don't see any Scouters on this thread who are advocating bending the rules. Other threads, yes, but not here. But nevertheless, I'll go ahead and answer your question, based on a previous thread on this forum. Herewith, the canonical reasons why people bend the rules (a collaborative effort): 1. The rule is unjust. (I think this can justify even secretly disobeying a rule--such as failing to turn over Jews to the Nazis and lying aboout it). 2. The purpose for the rule clearly does not apply to the particular situation. (This may be the case with Kahuna's visit to the waterfront. Another simple one might be the requirement to "take a number" when there is nobody else waiting.) 3. The rule is routinely violated and rarely enforced. (This is probably the true reason most people speed a few mph over the limit.) 4. The rule is silly. (Perhaps the fact that although it is shaped like a pocket flap, a Tot'n Chip is not supposed to be worn on the pocket flap of the uniform.) 5. The rule is inconsequential, and the consequences of violating it are too small to matter. (This is in the eye of the beholder, of course--perhaps wearing green socks that are identical to Scout socks, but without the red stripe, under long pants.) 6. The rule is inconvenient. (Ignoring two-deep leadership because a second adult wasn't available would be an example.) 7. You just think you know better than the people who make the rules. (Taking scouts to play laser tag or paintball, maybe.) 7a. The person really does know better than the rulemaker, because of unique personal expertise, or insufficient time/attention paid by the rulemaker. 8. Following the rule will cause one person to be singled out/embarrassed (I've seen this happen, in a case where #5 (inconsequential) also applied, in my judgement) This might be similar to #1 (unjust), although it's not that the rule itself is unjust, it's just that the penalty for breaking the rule is unjustly out of proportion. 9. Other substantial negative consequences to following the rule (maybe, in Cub Scouts, one family's tent collapses during a rainstorm in the middle of the night, and they move in with another family who has a large tent.) This might be a version of #6 (inconvenient), but just calling it "inconvenient" may not capture the effort/consequences of following the rule. When I hear "inconvenient", I think that someone is just trying to avoid some work, but the effect of following the rule might be more than that. Another example might be when a pack is going camping, but their one BALOO trained individual gets sick on the day of the trip. Following the rule may require cancelling the trip, affecting the plans of dozens of families. That would be more than inconvenient. And if there is another capable leader ready, the consequences of violating the rule may be too small to matter (a version of #5). 10. It's the spirit of the rule that matters, not the letter of the rule (maybe allowing a couple who has been together for 15 years, but isn't technically married, to share the same tent) 11. There is an overriding reason of a health or safety emergency (often comes up in these discussions, but is non-controversial in reality, as everyone tends to agree it's ok to break a rule to save a life). Possibly a subset of #2. 12. The rules suck all the fun out of the activity. (maybe the rule is you have to listen to a one-hour safety lecture before firing a bb-gun. Or, at a local camp-o-ree, here are the local rules, which were thought up by someone who seemed to have no experience with actual Scouts) 13. The rules, as written, appear to be bizarrely complex (say, doing a flight plan with all its details, for a program run by Young Eagles). This is also the effect that the local "Camp Nazi" had on some of the parents in my pack when she came by at the camp-o-ree and ran down her checklist of all the rules we were supposedly violating. 14. The rulemaker exceeded his authority in making the rule. Oak Tree

Lisa'bob, I too find it frustrating that BSA scatters its official policies across a wide variety of documentation, which seems to encourage any number of Scouting myths to propagate. Putting them all in one place wouldn't stop it entirely, but it seems like it would help. Like fgoodwin, I wonder about the one-night restriction. It seems like we've had this discussion before, relative to pack overnighters. Does it mean one night, or more than one? Different readers might have different opinions. The G2SS says "A Webelos Scout may participate in overnight den camping when supervised by an adult." So, does that mean it can only be one night? I can see how you might think it means one night, but I know the normal practice around here is to do two nights, and I think it's a valid interpretation to mean any number of nights. The G2SS also says "Webelos Scouts may participate in a resident overnight camping program operating under BSA National Camping School-trained leadership and managed by the council." These are definitely more than one night, so I think it's safe to say that a one-night limit is not implied by the word 'overnight'. I don't mean to put words in your mouth, so if you have another source for the restriction, my apologies for guessing at what you were referring to. Oak Tree

Jo's solution is especially effective if you can do it at a pack meeting in front of all the other parents. That way they can get the message right from the start. Or, if someone doesn't quite get it, you can say to them in a private conversation, "Hey, Bob, the Scout sign is supposed to be a silent signal, and I love the way it works when it's effective. Shouting 'Sign's up' defeats that purpose. Can I ask you to stop doing that?" Or, if you really want to whack them all down, if you're in a big meeting and someone shouts "Sign's up!", you can respond with "Scouts, when Mr. Smith shouted 'Sign's up!', that's something he should never have to do. Let's practice paying quick attention to the sign and we'll get the adults to promise that they won't shout for your attention." Then do the practice screaming which stops when the sign goes up, and have both groups shout their agreement to the policy - "Scouts, do you promise to pay attention to the sign?" Scouts shout "Yes!" "I can't hear you." etc... "Adults, do you promise to use the sign as a silent signal?"... "Whoops, too loud for a silent promise, maybe you should all nod your heads silently. Adults, do you promise to use the sign as a silent signal?" Adjust to taste. Oak Tree