Oak Tree

And for my last commentary, after proving I am perhaps not using my time in the wisest possible fashion, Ill look at the Medals and Embroidered Knots page. The Asian American Spirit of Scouting Service Award has a typo, assuming the writer was not trying to write with a Japanese accent. Im surprised that leff pocket made it past spell-check. I like having all the knots on the back page. Actually, its not all the knots. There are 39 knots and only 30 are on the back cover. I guess thats ok the back cover isnt strictly necessary. Its odd that the back cover is in a completely different order from the interior list, though. Maybe its just for artistic impression. Id like to see a comment on whether rows of two knots should be centered or not. Even if it just said rows of two may be worn left-justified or centered at the wearers discretion, that would resolve some discussions. I think the religious youth knot and the religious adult knot should be listed separately. The devices mentioned in the footnote provide one oddity. A Boy Scout, not in the Venturing program, can earn the Venturing device. In this case, the Venturing device represents earning the award as an older Boy Scout since there is no other appropriate device (you want to somehow distinguish it from the younger Boy Scout award). Perhaps even a bit stranger is that a Varsity Scout would also earn the Venturing device. This is stranger because there is in fact a Varsity device that could serve this purpose. There are six devices listed for the Scouters Training Award and the Scouters Key. I think it would be useful to include a picture of a knot with multiple devices on it (either do it of one of these awards or of the youth religious award). I also could find no mention anywhere of a District Committee Training Award, only the District Committee Key. Does such a training award really exist? And would six devices really fit on one knot? Id think youd want the devices to stay within the borders of the knot, but I guess if youve actually earned all six, we could cut you some slack. And why is the Venturing Advisor Award of Merit listed separately? Its the same knot as the Scoutmasters Award of Merit. We dont list the keys or the training awards separately, so why treat the award of merit differently? And there is a Varsity Coach Award of Merit and its not listed here at all, which adds to the idea that they should all be listed under one knot. That's all for now. Going back into hibernation at this time...

I'm not a Venturing expert, so I don't have any comments on that section of the Insignia Guide. But moving on to the "Universal and Nonunit Insignia"... I think this should just be called Nonunit Insignia, and they should move the universal items into the other sections. The guide already includes most other universal items (e.g. interpreter strips) in all the other sections anyway. The only item here that is new here and is truly universal is the nameplate. The lapel pin is universal for adults and could be included in those sections. All of this would benefit from the proposed table/chart format. The Emergency Preparedness Award is already included in the Cub Scout section. If its included here, it should also say that it can be earned by Varsity Scouts, Venturers, and Scouters. The Insignia Guide indicates that without an OA flap, you should wear the nameplate on the right pocket flap. But its much nicer above the pocket. Id prefer this to be changed, so that it's officially correct to wear the nameplate above the pocket even without an OA flap. And for the World Crest, Id like to see a comment on what to do if the knots and stars interfere with it. Optionally centering it vertically between the top of the knots and the top seam sounds reasonable to me. Why is the Adult universal hat pin listed in the Employed Personnel Badges of Office section?

where the X means that the award can be earned and displayed, and the W means the award can be worn at this level if earned in another aspect of the program.

Yes, I agree that would be a good idea. Maybe something like: Award Cub Boy Scout VarsityVenturerScouter 50-miler XXXX Emergency PrepXXXXX OA Flap XXWX Cub ReligiousXWWWW SCUBA XXX

Our pack is similar to yours - does a regular amount of camping, owns a trailer and some communal gear, but doesn't have any tents. We've considered getting a couple, because we do know that some families don't have tents when they start, and we'd like to lower the barrier to that first campout. But we remain in a state similar to yours - thinking it might be a good idea, but not actually acting on it. I think the best case would be if someone would donate an old tent or two that the pack could make available. You don't want to get into a situation where people are continuously depending on the tent, and you don't want to get into contention over who gets to use it. We've told people not to let the lack of a tent stop them - that there are more experienced camping families around that have extra tents and would be willing to lend them. We'll probably just keep it that way.

There are currently ten boys in our troop who crossed over in March 2006. Seven of them are now First Class. Five of them made it in under a year, with the fastest being six months. We hold one typical camping outing every month. Most of these do not accomplish too much in the way of advancement, but there is one campout where we definitely focus on basic Scouting skills, and usually another one or two where various skills will be worked in. It seems like most months we have some other activity as well - a troop training day, or a service project, or meeting at a swimming pool on a Saturday, or a patrol activity where they are preparing for an upcoming campout. Our troop meetings have a variety of things going on, and we do focus on some basic Scoutcraft work for the new Scouts. Also, the more gung-ho Scouts find time during the meetings to take care of some requirements. Certainly its true that the boys whose parents are helping them keep organized and focused are the ones who are making the most progress. I will say that I don't think the sign-offs represent mastery in our troop. If the boy has done the requirement (e.g. successfully tied one bowline), he gets it signed off. So no, he typically would not have really solid skills.

I found the Boy Scout section to be the best, most complete section. As already mentioned in one of the parent threads, the Varsity stuff should be moved out of the Boy Scout section, since it has its own section. The picture on p. 18 shows two service stars. Nowhere in the Insignia Guide does it state how far apart these stars are supposed to be. It has always been and is still indicated this way on the inspection forms (http://www.scouting.org/forms/34048.pdf). Id like to see that kept here. I'm surprised that it's been removed in recent editions. Under Musician, it refers to the Quality Unit Award, which should now technically be the Centennial Quality Unit Award. The Good Turn for America patch should be listed on page 27. The BSA Lifeguard award should include Scouter. Im surprised at this omission here, because most of the awards are carefully and correctly assigned to their proper eligibility guidelines. The Mile Swim award can also be earned by Scouters (most references indicate this, but the closest I could find to official documentation was scoutstuff.org).

Here are my Cub Scout nitpickings in the Insignia Guide. The BB shooting and archery belt loops and pins are not listed. I understand we leave them out of the Program Guide for Cub Scout Academic and Sports because we dont want to encourage people to do the activities on their own. But they should be in the Insignia Guide. The Centennial Quality Unit award is listed as being for youth member and leader. But other awards on the page are also available for leaders, and are not so indicated. The Conservation Good Turn award is definitely for leaders (http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/21-386/index.html). The BSA Family Award is for all family members. The Emergency Preparedness Award and the BSA Physical Fitness Award are both for Scouters. The Good Turn for America patch is also available for Scouters, and also comes with rockers that could be shown here. And speaking of the Emergency Preparedness Award why on earth is it supposed to be centered on the left pocket flap? Theres a button at the center of the pocket flap. The Insignia Guide is correct on this one the description matches the national web site, but I havent seen any pictures. This seems like someone just wrote it down as a quick notation without really thinking it through. And why, in the Cub Scout section, are leaders referred to as leaders, while some other sections refer to them as Scouters? The two terms appear to be used randomly and interchangeably, but it would seem more correct to pick one term and stick with it. And lastly, Id like to see this section actually list all of the awards that Cub Scouts are eligible for, or at least all the ones that national produces. There is the Jamboree-on-the-Air / Jamboree-on-the Internet, Crime Prevention, and Donor Awareness. The only other items that Cub Scouts can wear that are in the book are the International award (p. 50), a nameplate (p. 42), the three heroism awards, and the James E. West Fellowship Award (p. 52). These are correctly identified, but it takes a fine-tooth comb to find them all.

Every now and then I just have to pick a windmill to tilt at. I'll try to be as kind as possible. The worst that happens is that my comments vanish into the ether, but maybe there's a small chance that some feedback actually gets read by someone. And best case, I guess, would be that I'd encourage the Insignia Guide team to get some volunteers to proofread some drafts. One more Varsity item - the Varsity Scout Letter should also indicate Scouter. And since I agree with eolesen that Varsity is fairly neglected, I'll spin off a thread for another section.

We'll always tell you that asking your DE or SE will give you a better personal response than asking a self-selected group of strangers. I'm not sure I understand your problem, though? You're upset that the troop won't let people under 18 drive? I have a bigger problem with the BSA rules that seem to suggest you can't drive to a troop meeting by yourself if you're 17. I can see why you might object to that nonsensical interpretation. What scenario are you upset about? And why are you so focused on this item? It seems like a pretty minor point. Units, chartered organizations, Scout camps, pretty much every group is free to add restrictions to safety policy, and they often do. Of all the things your troop does, this is what's got you upset? Even after everyone tells you they can do it? Are you sure there's not something more going on here? How are you getting along with the troop leadership otherwise?

Ok, rather than pick holes in a volunteers uniform, Ill present another option and discuss what I consider some shortcomings in the Insignia Guide, be they errors, omissions, or just oddities. For reference, Ive got the May 2007 version. I'll just do one section at a time. Feel free to agree, point out more errors, or explain why my confusion is misplaced. But no fair complaining that I'm picking nits. I'm admitting right up front that's what I'm doing, and since it is the official Insignia Guide, I've got to think that it's fair game. First topic - Varsity Scouting First off, Ill include an outright error. On page 18, under Boy Scout Program Identification, it lists the Varsity strip as orange on tan. This might be what youd think, given that the Varsity color is orange, but on page 32 it is correctly listed as red on tan. Even if it were orange, I think the guide would call it blaze, anyway. The guide does not state whether or not leaders should wear this strip. Perhaps its obvious, but the answer should be included here and the answer is yes, based on the official adult uniform inspection sheet. http://www.scouting.org/forms/34048.pdf (why isnt this entire sheet included in the Insignia Guide?) The fact that the Varsity strip is listed twice is an oddity in itself. If its going to be listed in the Varsity section, it really doesnt belong in the Boy Scout section. There appears to be a random set of decisions at work throughout the book to decide which badges to include in which different places. The Varsity letter and Varsity pins are in the Boy Scout section. The Varsity letter is listed in the Varsity section, but the pins are not. Lots of awards are mentioned as a repeat in the Venturing section, but are not included in the Varsity section. I'd contend that the Varsity items should only be in the Varsity section, and that a statement that Varsity Scouts are also eligible for all awards in the Boy Scout section would be appropriate.

Great story! Thanks for posting.

I take Mr. Coronado's uniform as a confirmation of the idea that having a perfect uniform is not what national is looking for when they look for great success stories. This conversation is another example of how these threads don't mirror the real world. In the real world, we'd probably all offer our thanks and congratulations. That would make for a pretty boring thread, though. I'll take the fact that his world crest is too low as a reminder to focus on the important things.

Yeah, Beavah, you're probably right. But there aren't that many active threads right now, and I just felt strangely compelled to post something.

Well, the exact quote is "Be sure water is dispensed into each person's own drinking cup."

Griesinger's father George has an Eagle Scout project proposal that describes the stone in detail. The proposal was signed by Scout leaders and by an employee of the Recreation District. Probably shouldn't have been approved that way if they weren't going to allow it later. I'm guessing they just didn't notice, and then later assumed they didn't know (or didn't want to admit they knew). There are lots of monuments out there from the past that make similar declarations. But it's tough to get any such new items approved in today's climate. I would have been doubtful on this one from the start. I'll bet it would be hard to get a stone that says "In God we trust", even though it's printed on all our money.

Ok - I'm willing to answer the questions without any specifics. I'll just fill in the assumptions. Is it legal to take BSA rules from the Guide to Safe Scouting and change the rules to what you want the troop to have and then have the Scout and parent sign the agreement? It's not against the law. But I'll assume you're asking more informally, meaning whether you can do this by BSA policy. I don't think that you could stay within BSA policy if you loosen or contradict the rules. But you could augment them or interpret them. Who does the liability fall on then if it is not written verbatim? As Beavah says, liability always falls on the adults and the CO. Or on whoever the courts say it does. As a registered volunteer, you have no liability except for gross negligence. And the CO is backed by the BSA for insurance claims. You can search on 'insurance' for long discussions of this topic. the Scout can have disiplinary action taken if he knows he has violated the Guide to Save Scouting rules The Scout can have disciplinary action taken for any action. It doesn't have to be explicitly against the rules. It's probably not against the G2SS to tip over an outhouse, or to throw an unopened can of beans in the fire, or to eat a bouquet of daisies that another Scout picked. But I'd be happy to discipline a Scout - depending on the definition of discipline. But I do think I know where you're coming from here. The problem can be whether or not the Scout could reasonably be expected to know that something was a rule. Is it ok to wear a 12-inch machete in a sheath on your belt (not explicitly prohibited in the G2SS) or to put your lips on the public water supply (which is prohibited)? The problem with the G2SS is that there are too many rules to expect a Scout to remember every one. If I think it's reasonable that a Scout may not realize something is a rule, I'll just remind them of the rule and expect them to adjust. If I think they are intentionally breaking a rule, then that's a different discussion. I'd warn a Scout about any prohibited activity, be it written down or not, and feel free to discipline accordingly (where my method of disciplining is pretty much what Eamonn describes in the spun thread.)

I agree with the last three posters that when I hear the phrase, it's a reminder that we're not in the Man Scouts. I've had the same issue at pack meetings, reminding people that the meeting is for the boys, and if you get up front to say something, say it to the boys. That said, I don't think there's anything wrong with the adults having a good time on the campouts. If the adults are enjoying it, it's more likely that they and their sons will stick with it. Sure, my sons are making good friends, but so am I. I put a lot of work into Scouting, but I don't view it as a sacrifice. So I don't really think of the whole experience as being "for the boys". I think of it as being for everyone involved. Some parts, like pack meetings, are indeed for the boys. But some events, like district recognition dinners, are for the adults. And many events are somewhere in between. If I weren't having fun, I wouldn't be doing it.

MVScouter, I certainly wouldn't worry about what Andy says - I've observed his factual answers to be frequently wrong, and his opinions to be to be stated arrogantly as fact. I do think it's a tough thing, though, to correct other people's uniforms. I have a Scout in my unit who wears two religious knots, and it bugs me, too. I've even had another Scout complain to me about it. We did hold a uniform inspection where I thought I could naturally mention it to him, but he was absent that day. It's funny - of all the uniforming errors in the troop, this is the one that grates on me the most, too - I guess I'm like you in that regard. While Eamonn is of course right that no one has the authority to tell someone else to fix their uniform, I think people are more likely to wear their uniform correctly if they know that other people notice how their uniform looks, and if they are occasionally reminded what the correct uniform is. I've found that I can do this fairly inoffensively at a unit uniform inspection. The adults will usually go along with the idea of being inspected as a fun comparison with the Scouts. We haven't done it often - maybe once every year or two - but it's one way to do a level-set.

Gold Winger - yes, the ads are always keyed off of the discussion. You can see a thread here where we rose up as a group at Hunt's suggestion and managed to get llama ads to appear on the right. I think it's always tricky when a public place of residence (college, military, jail, ...) tries to give worshipers an option of feeling at home in their worship. Privately many of us would hold positions that aren't ok for the government to advocate. Like llama-ownership, for example.

Chase, Troop Tracker looks like a pretty new program. When did you switch to it? Has it been a bug-free experience? The first users often are the ones that find the obscure bugs that the testers missed. What's your position in the troop and what use do you make of Troop Tracker? And why do you think it's better than TroopMaster? Was there some pain point with TroopMaster that is completely fixed with Troop Tracker that provides the huge relief? Some of their web site is still under construction. Is it really ready to go? E.g. FAQ, Legal, Support, Client Testimonials. I'm really not excited about buying a software product where the support page is still under construction.

To quote the form: "At least 70 percent of our youth members had an outdoor experience or one activity per month, or improve the percentage over last year. ______ percent last year ________ percent this year" I agree that the most straightforward interpretation of this requirement is to count how many boys attended all months. But that's a crazy interpretation, because very few boys will, or would be expected to, attend every activity in a year. We interpreted it by calculating the percentage of boys who attended in each month. I agree it could be worded more clearly. It's also, in my opinion, odd to calculate this in early November, with two months still left to go.

Like AnaMaria, I assumed the title meant going camping without a backpack. If you go car camping, you can pack all your stuff in any manner of container. I find rubbermaid tubs are definitely recommended. But if you're going to the back-country without a pack, then you're doing real survival camping. Sort of like the shoe-box campouts. I guess you could do a bed-roll like they used to in the old days. Or you could use a bag and a tump line (that's one of my favorite words...tump...tump...tump). But if you just want to go without your Cub Scout pack - well, sure, go right ahead. I'd encourage it, in fact.

Gloom, despair, and agony on me... I prefer to take the long, bright view. We live at a time of unbelievable capabilities. Over the last 100 years our productivity has increased immensely. Our life spans have increased to record levels. We live in bigger houses and drive better cars, on average. We live in a country with tremendous freedom. Our taxes are relatively low, as is our unemployment and inflation. We have a stable government and our currency is reliable enough to be the world's standard. High-school graduation and college graduation rates are high. Our environment is becoming less polluted - species are moving off the endangered species list. We have more national parks, more state parks, and more national trail systems being completed. Sure, we should advocate and support the causes we believe in, to keep things moving in the right direction. But long-term - it's been an incredible ride so far - and the future's so bright, I gotta wear shades.

I'm with Barry. This Scout heard that you can light snow on fire and wanted to try it himself. Attempted arson? Kick him out of the troop? Not in my mind. Now, admittedly, we don't want everyone doing this - so some service project clean-up work seems reasonable. Maybe a reprimand and a little bit of a delay in a BoR. But I do like the idea of conducting an official experiment and see if snow will really burn. That would be something fun.