Oak Tree

Ed, I think you may be over-reacting a bit to this question. You questioned me "That is a huge stretch Oak Tree! What about phone calls?" even though I clearly stated "it's not a YP issue". You questioned scoutldr "OK scoutldr I'll bite. If you feel this is a YP issue, what about phone calls?" even though he agreed with me (that it wasn't a YP issue, even though it could feel like one), and scoutldr's main point was that it was a reasonable question for Apache Bob to ask. Are you saying that Apache Bob shouldn't even have asked the question? Your last statement, "Is there a worry about e-mails & phone calls from adult leaders to Scouts in your unit? If so, you have bigger issues!" sounds to me exactly what some people must have said when the no one-on-one contact rule was first introduced. "If you need that rule, your unit has bigger problems." Not one response here has said that this is a YP issue. But you seem very insistent on arguing that it is not a YP issue. Who are you arguing with? What statement do you disagree with? Have you seen Mark Foley's text messages to his favorite Congressional page? Sometimes it makes you think that it might indeed be a good idea to know that multiple people will read anything you type.

This strikes me as a pretty well-written notification. It lays out the issues clearly, identifies what would have to change and why that is unlikely, and overall makes it difficult to argue against the recommendation. I suppose if I had more information it might be possible to make some other argument (if I were in that council and knew why no units went there, and knew why that could actually chang, for example.) But as it is, it sounds like there are lots of camps close enough that the troops prefer, so it's not clear that this camp is really useful in an economic sense. The great thing about capitalism is that people vote with their dollars, and they end up getting more of what they want and less of what they don't want. Apparently, not enough people really wanted what KMSR had to offer.

Ed, I can take a guess at what Apache Bob is thinking. It's not that it's a written rule anywhere, but that sending email to a youth feels like "one-on-one contact". One-on-one contact between adults and youth members is not permitted. In situations that require personal conferences, such as a Scoutmaster's conference, the meeting is to be conducted in view of other adults and youths. I agree that it's not a YP issue, but I can see why it sort of feels like one.

In our pack, it's usually the CC, CM, Camping Coordinator, Treasurer, and any committee member with an upcoming event (Popcorn Kernel, Pinewood Derby Coordinator, Blue and Gold Coordinator, etc). Our den leaders do not attend, they have a separate meeting. All parents are always invited, but I don't think we've ever had one come out of curiosity.

We usually just catch the books up with TroopMaster periodically. When all the new Scouts are all making rapid progress at the beginning (after crossover) it doesn't matter too much, as you can just assume everyone needs everything. We definitely sync up the books and the program at advancement time, so when the new Scout gets Tenderfoot or Second Class, it's a good time to record what all First Class items he has done. Then after about six months, it gets to be a smaller set who still need various things, and our new Scout ASM will usually update things that he sees get accomplished. It doesn't keep things in perfect synchronicity, but TroopMaster is never too far behind. Also, there are shortcuts in TroopMaster that speed things up. There is a "group credit" function, where you can give a whole set of Scouts a date for completing a requirement. There are also shortcut date entry methods, like 'L' for the last (previous) date you typed, or 'T' for today's date.

I can confirm that Facebook and texting have essentially replaced email for getting in touch with all the teenagers I deal with. I've done both of those to get in touch with Scouts. Not all the Scouts in my troop are my "friends" nor do I have all their phone numbers, so I sometimes have to rely on phone calls or email to the parents. But Facebook has its own email and its own chat, and for the kids, everyone they are friends with in real life, they are friends with there too. So why would you even check email? Facebook has no spam. For younger kids, it might make sense to copy the parents. For older kids, no big deal. It does raise a question about what to call yourself. When you refer to yourself as Mr. Tree with the kids, but as Oak to the parents, how do you sign your emails? A thread will start off being to a parent, but then a response will end up being to a youth and your name veers back and forth...ah, the dilemmas.

I didn't think that the quote about the fact that democracy cannot last came from deTocqueville, but I couldn't remember where it did come from. Turns out it's apparently not from anyone of historical significance. It's usually attributed to Alexander Tytler, but that's an urban legend. http://www.lorencollins.net/tytler.html The bread-and-circuses quote does come from a Roman poet, Juvenal, from circa A.D.100, although Rome had not yet fallen.

Mike, I think your thinking is fine. The main advantages that TroopMaster brings to this are 1. a record in case a boy loses his book (not that any of us have *ever* seen that happen), and 2. a quick way to see who all needs those one or two items that you mention. TroopMaster is also faster than doing it by hand, and makes it easy to transfer a Scout to another unit. But as for who would want to see the data, I think you're fine. There is often also an ASM responsible for helping out with this for the new Scouts. I'd be curious to hear if others have been successful (and how they've done it) at getting the PL and/or SPL interested in paying attention to this.

Yeah, such is life sometimes. Sometimes some of the kids just need a kick. How hard are the conferences in your troop? Some kids I'd just let it go. Other times I might steamroll their objections. Have an ASM track down your son, sit down with him, and do the conference. He may even thank them for doing it. Just FYI, I don't think there is any BSA rule that you can't do the Scoutmaster conference. It may be your rule as Scoutmaster, but you could change that if you wanted to.

BadenP, Ok, great, thanks for the link. Let's take a look at what it says. http://bsa-la.org/index.php?page=tax-exempt-status First off, it looks like the Western LA County Council has exactly the same statement as all the other councils that have been referenced.Units must either: 1) obtain their own employer identification number ("EIN") using IRS Form SS-4, or 2) use the EIN of their chartering organization. Sometimes, the IRS correctly explains to a unit the process for an organization to be considered a "subordinate" of a parent organization, and this explanation is interpreted as permission to do so. But, again, the BSA National Council cannot, and never could, declare Scout units to be subordinates. Also, receiving an EIN does not imply tax exempt status; it is nothing more than a unit's "Social Security" number. If a troop's chartering organization is a church (and tax exempt), the troop could be considered tax exempt only if the church let the troop use the church's EIN, or the troop's EIN was included within the church's group exemption by the church. "Unit" gifts would be tax deductible as gifts to the church, not to Scouting. The primary quote I take away here is "Unit" gifts would be tax deductible as gifts to the church, not to Scouting. So this is the way things are normally done, and it all works fine. But that statement appears to be the opposite of what you are stating in your first couple of posts on this topic. BadenP: the WLAACC has a statement that would answer almost all of the questions being asked here BadenP: The troop can not legally use the EIN of their sponsoring church WLAACC: Units must either obtain their own EIN, or use the EIN of their chartering organization. BadenP: A scout unit is considered to be part of the BSA WLAACC: Scout units are not considered subordinate organizations of the BSA BadenP: they are NOT considered to be part of their sponsors 501c3 organization under Federal tax law. WLAACC: Sometimes, the IRS correctly explains to a unit the process for an organization to be considered a "subordinate" of a parent organization, and this explanation is interpreted as permission to do so. I find it hard to reconcile your statements that the WLAACC answers the questions, and yet be consistent with your other positions.

BadenP, I figure this is a fun academic exercise. I realize I'm not likely to get audited over my claiming of Scout meals. I'm not even sure my deductions matter, given the bizarre Alternative Minimum Tax and its application to my return (yes, Mr. Taxman, I'm paying too little federal tax due to the fact that I'm using the well-known tax loopholes of paying state income tax and having kids.) I agree that it only "matters" if you get audited. And then I agree it's important to know how the auditor will interpret the law. But that doesn't change what the law actually is. So can you point me at something that shows what the law is? Where does the law say, or what part of the law is interpreted to say, that Scout troops run by churches would not be able receive tax-deductible donations? This is done all the time, so you'd think that if it weren't the case, somewhere there would be some document saying so. Can you point to any tax court ruling to this effect? I agree you can say "web sites don't matter." "Nothing out there is official." "What the BSA says doesn't matter." "What your church says doesn't matter." So you can discount all the evidence I can easily find on the web, and just say "My personal experience trumps all of that." But can you show me anything that supports your position?

The G2SS rule that would seem to apply is: Respect of privacy. Adult leaders must respect the privacy of youth members in situations such as changing clothes and taking showers at camp, and intrude only to the extent that health and safety require. Adults must protect their own privacy in similar situations. The YMCA changing room may feel like a violation of the spirit of the rule, but it's not clear that you would be violating the letter of the rule. In order to maintain discipline and protect your Scouts from older boys and other adults, you need to be in there with them. It's a public place. I think you're fine.

Here's the thing, guys. You may indeed be former IRS agents; I have no reason to doubt you. But what you're saying is contradicted by every IRS and every Boy Scout link I can find. On the deductibility of meals, straight from an IRS publication:Travel. Generally, you can claim a charitable contribution deduction for travel expenses necessarily incurred while you are away from home performing services for a charitable organization only if there is no significant element of personal pleasure, recreation, or vacation in the travel. This applies whether you pay the expenses directly or indirectly. You are paying the expenses indirectly if you make a payment to the charitable organization and the organization pays for your travel expenses. The deduction for travel expenses will not be denied simply because you enjoy providing services to the charitable organization. Even if you enjoy the trip, you can take a charitable contribution deduction for your travel expenses if you are on duty in a genuine and substantial sense throughout the trip. However, if you have only nominal duties, or if for significant parts of the trip you do not have any duties, you cannot deduct your travel expenses. Ok, this seems to make it clear, you can deduct your expenses. Is being a troop leader really what they are talking about here? Well, let's see. Maybe an example comes next.Example 1. You are a troop leader for a tax-exempt youth group and you help take the group on a campng trip. You are responsible for overseeing the setup of the camp and for providing adult supervision for other activities during the entire trip. You participate in the activities of the group and really enjoy your time with them. You oversee the breaking of camp and you help transport the group home. You can deduct your travel expenses. Well, that sure sounds like leading a Boy Scout unit. Now, what expenses are they talking about? Maybe they don't include meals because you're getting something of value. Let's see. Do they define travel expenses or say what's included? Well, yes, later on they do.Deductible travel expenses. These include:Air, rail, and bus transportation,Out-of-pocket expenses for your car,Taxi fares or other costs of transportation between the airport or station and your hotel,Lodging costs, andThe cost of meals.How you can possibly read that and say that meals are not deductible just is beyond me. I'll happily go to court with the IRS if they disallow my meals while directly printing that meals can be deducted. Holy mackerel!

I'm with Twocubdad. Our troop is going through almost the same identical thing - we're just a little behind them in our timetable. We would never have a Scout sleep with dad (barring some emergency). We also tell adults they can't bring anything bigger than a 3-man tent for themselves, or a 4-man tent if they are sharing with another adult. Almost all of adults sleep solo in a two-man tent. But if a dad did bring a 4-man tent and didn't want to set it up just for himself, we'd just say "Scouts tent with Scouts. If you can find another adult to tent with you, great. Or maybe someone else has a space and you can agree to share that and not even set up your own." I think you should be careful about using charitable fund-raising/donated money to buy things for Scouts. That doesn't sound right. I'd say, use your nice treasury to buy tents for the troop, but assign the tent permanently to a patrol (and they can assign them to individuals if they want). But they stay troop property. My vote is for Eureka two-man tents.

Enjoy the winter backpacking. Very fun. Just make sure you're pretty well prepared. A few things going wrong can be ok, but those aren't much fun as trips to learn from failure. Makes for great stories, though. I considered the hypothesis that this is just a light week, but it seemed like more than that to me. Now you forced me to go back and test the hypothesis a little bit. I searched on posts containing the word "the". The first Wednesday in December this year: 55 posts by 27 posters. The first Wednesday in December last year (also following Thanksgiving): 152 posts by 60 posters. Perhaps I should give more credence to the idea that we have actually solved all the problems...

NealOnWheels, Pub 526 may not mention 501c3, but it does say "You can deduct your contributions only if you make them to a qualified organization. To become a qualified organization, most organizations...must apply to the IRS." It also says, accurately, that organizations typically know if they are tax-exempt, and you should just ask them. In the [...] section of the quote, it says that churches don't have to apply to be 501©(3), but many of them do anyway, according to the instructions for form 1023. And yes, I am now completely convinced that your Scout camp fee is completely deductible, as long as you are on duty. From everything I can see, local Boy Scout councils are normally treated as subordinate to the National Council, but local Boy Scout units are subordinate to their chartered organization. This is consistent with the IRS documentation, which says that a central organization must exert control of the subordinate group, and I think we've pretty well established that is not the case with Boy Scout troops. I understand that the IRS and the tax courts actually determine the meaning of the legislation, but I'd love to see any evidence that donations to Boy Scout troops are not actually tax-deductible, especially when made through their chartered organization. For now, I think I'll live with the assumption that you can still make a tax-deductible donation to my troop through the church.

Didn't there used to be more topics under discussion, and more people discussing them? Has everyone migrated to some other site? Is there a Scouting group on Facebook that has all the old flame wars going strong? Twitter? LinkedIn? Has UseNet made a resurgence, and the scouter mailing lists are now overflowing? Is everyone going to the National site and their new forums? It just seems a little empty in here...

BadenP, you say a unit "can not use the sponsoring organizations EIN " But the BSA explicitly says "Units may use the tax ID number of their chartering organization, if given permission." BadenP, you also say "A scout unit is considered to be part of the BSA" While the BSA says "Scout units are not considered subordinate organizations of the BSA, they are not included within the BSA group exemption, and they are not entitled to use the BSA's Group Exemption Number ("GEN"). This is an IRS rule." So if I understand you correctly, you are saying that BSA has interpreted the law incorrectly (or at least differently than the IRS has). You also, if I'm reading you correctly, say that donations to the church that go to the troop would not be tax-deductible, because they do not benefit the church. Both Vicki and Beavah appear to argue otherwise. How would you advise making donations to the troop, so that they would be tax-deductible?

Also, there's this quote: Chartered Organization Responsibilities By receiving a charter from the Boy Scouts of America, the chartered organization agrees to (List the following on a flip chart.)Conduct Scouting in accordance with its own policies and guidelines as well as those of the BSA. Include Scouting as part of its overall program for youth and families. Appoint a chartered organization representative who is a member of the organization and will represent it to the Scouting district and council, serving as a voting member of each. Select a unit committee of parents and members of the organization who will screen and select unit leaders... [emphasis added]Here the BSA is explicitly saying it's the chartered organization's responsibility to select leaders. I don't believe this is compatible with having the BSA choose the leaders. [Edited for formatting](This message has been edited by Oak Tree)

AvidSM, I find this quote to be curious: The BSA has a right to choose its leaders. Certainly the BSA has the right to choose its own district, council, and national leaders. And the BSA can choose who should not have membership. But all the other BSA literature emphasizes that the CO chooses the leaders, not the BSA. There's a whole supplemental training unit on the national site on how to select quality unit leaders. Quoting from that training: Target AudienceChartered organization representatives Scoutmasters and assistant Scoutmasters Varsity team Coaches and assistant Coaches Troop or team committee chairs Troop or team committee members Nowhere does it list unit commissioners or any other representative of the council. The idea that "the BSA has a right to choose its leaders", when applied to unit leaders, just does not jibe with any of my experience or anything I've seen anywhere else from the BSA. I will grant you that the BSA has the right to veto people's membership. How does the book say the unit commissioner should convince the IH to remove the terrible leader?

The links that AlFansome posts are so identical in nature that it seems they must all originate from a common source. The quote "Units may use the tax ID number of their chartering organization, if given permission. This may be especially useful for the unit if that organization is tax-exempt" occurs there, and also on the page of the Potawatomi Council, which is interestingly enough a subpage of the national website, scouting.org. This certainly contrasts with what BadenP says is the official policy of the IRS. Not that I have any good way to tell which is more "correct".

BadenP, There's so much rich content in your post I hardly know where to start to ask you to explain further.As a former IRS agent I will offer this, if the XYZ Church sponsors Troop 222 and a person donates material to scout Johnny doing an Eagle project that donation is to the scout not the troop or the church and therefore is not tax deductible since it does not benefit the church which is the only legal 501c3 entity.Ok, so if the person writes a check to Johnny Scout, then I think we could all see that would be non-deductible. But the donor could also write the check to XYZ Church, or to Troop 222, or to the recipient of the project, let's call it Non-profit ABC. Any of those could pay for the project. If the donor writes the check to Non-profit ABC, also a 501c3 entity, wouldn't that also be deductible? Churches spend their money on community projects all the time. Aren't gifts to the church that are used for community projects also tax-deductible?The troop can not legally use the EIN of their sponsoring church since they are considered seperate legal entities, the troop can file for their own EIN number, if they meet certain requirements, but that is a bigger hassle than its worth.What is the distinction that makes something a separate legal entity?An EIN can only be used by the organization it was issued to, not an affiliated organization which a boy scout troop is considered to be, and I can tell you from first hand experience if the person claiming the deduction gets audited the letter from the troop using the EIN of the church not only will the deduction be denied but the church would also be contacted by the IRS and receive a warning letter for violating the terms of a 501c3 status organization.Is the church choir an affiliated organization? What is the test that makes something an affiliated organization? What if the church considers the Scout troop to be a part of the church, and issues a statement on church letterhead?The only exception to this would be that the project directly benefitted the church and the person got a letter on the Churchs letterhead signed by the pastor or other church official. This is because in that case the donation would be recorded in the churches records and could be substantiated by the auditor.Ok, no problem there. Everyone agrees that a donation to the church that benefits the church and is documented by the church is tax-deductible. What about dancinfox's situation? If someone donates $2500 to the church with a memo line "for your Scout troop", is that donation tax-deductible? Does that donation benefit the church? It seems like you're saying that if the donation doesn't directly benefit the church, it's not deductible. But surely there is some way to donate money to a Scout troop that is tax-deductible. The Schedule A instructions specifically list Boy Scouts as an example of a qualified charitable organization. (Edited formatting)(This message has been edited by Oak Tree)

To follow on to scoutldr's comments, Quoting Schedule A instructions: If you made a gift and received a benefit in return, such as food, entertainment, or merchandise, you can generally only deduct the amount that is more than the value of the benefit. So, does your camp fee just cover the value of the room and board? I'm thinking the value of the board is pretty low, and the food's not too high, either. But you only paid $100. Let's see, 17 meals and 6 nights in a leaky two-man canvas tent. At $3 a meal and $3 a night, that's $69.00. Deduct the other $31.00? Save $8.68 on your taxes.

From what you've posted here, it doesn't appear that you are at all out of line. Learning by doing, trial and error, it can work better than any other method. I had a Scout the other day ensuring that his patrol box had tongs after trying to cook everything with a skewer on the last camping trip. Nothing I could have said would have produced the same motivation. Finding the line between boy-run and boy-run-into-the-ground can be an art form. I tend not to let things "flop horribly". When I watch the boys, I try to see if the error is something that they can learn from, and where "the punishment fits the crime", as it were. I would not, for example, let 10 adults drive two hours in the wrong direction because a Scout sends out the wrong name of a park. I also tend not to allow for disastrous organizational failures, where one Scout's inability to plan things can ruin things for everyone else, especially if it doesn't seem like there's going to be appropriate learning. The level can be different for everyone, though. You need to have it at a level that you feel comfortable. Is it normal to get flak from parents? Yes and no. You probably can't get rid of it all, but you can do a lot to build bridges with the other leaders and the parents. I estimate that I spend at least 50% of my time with the adults, talking to them about how the troop runs, sharing a common vision, sending out emails, etc. You can certainly say "I'm the Scoutmaster, so we do it my way. If you don't like it, find another Scoutmaster." That is not, in my experience, a very effective way to lead a group of parents and adult volunteers. It will almost guarantee that you'll get more flak from the parents. So yes, your troop operation sounds fine. Being efficient is not one of the goals of a troop. And change is often hard for people. You're going to want to have allies in this - get as many adults on board as you can.

AvidSM, A leader can definitely be removed, and it's even described in the literature, but the removal is not done by the unit commissioner. You say the commissioner can help to have the IH make the change. But that's true of anyone - a parent, the CC, the COR - anyone can tell the IH that a leader should be removed. The commissioner has no more authority than they do. The BSA itself would have only a couple of options for removing a leader. They can revoke his membership in BSA. Or they can go to the IH and say, "Remove him as a leader or we will revoke your charter." The commissioner does not have either of those powers. But beyond that, this just isn't how BSA is set up. You could make an argument that this type of hierarchy might make sense as being something we're all familiar with, but it is definitely not in line with the chartering system. From BSA, here are the roles a commissioner plays:The commissioner is a friend of the unit. Of all their roles, this one is the most important. It springs from the attitude, "I care, I am here to help,what can I do for you?" Caring is the ingredient that makes commissioner service successful. He or she is an advocate of unit needs. A commissioner who makes himself known and accepted now will be called on in future times of trouble. The commissioner is a representative. The average unit leader is totally occupied in working with kids. Some have little if any contact with the Boy Scouts of America other than a commissioner's visit to their meeting. To them, the commissioner may be the BSA. The commissioner helps represent the ideals, the principles, and the policies of the Scouting movement. The commissioner is a unit "doctor." In their role as "doctor," they know that prevention is better than a cure, so they try to see that their units make good "health practices" a way of life. When problems arise, and they will even in the best unit, they act quickly. They observe symptoms, diagnose the real ailment, prescribe a remedy, and follow up on the patient. The commissioner is a teacher. As a commissioner, they will have a wonderful opportunity to participate in the growth of unit leaders by sharing knowledge with them. They teach not just in an academic environment, but where it counts mostas an immediate response to a need to know. That is the best adult learning situation since the lesson is instantly reinforced by practical application of the new knowledge. The commissioner is a counselor. As a Scouting counselor, they will help units solve their own problems. Counseling is the best role when unit leaders don't recognize a problem and where solutions are not clear-cut. Everyone needs counseling from time to time, even experienced leaders.Now the only one of these that comes close to what you describe is doctor. And yes, I'm sure that there are extreme circumstances where a majority of people in the unit might welcome the help of a commissioner in getting rid of a unit leader. But in general, the attitude you take with "I would look upon a leader who does not want one of my TRUSTED Unit Commissioners to visit them as being a poor team player or having bad chemistry -both valid reasons for replacement. does not sound at all like being a friend of the unit. Just because you trust the unit commissioner doesn't automatically mean the unit should. Trust is earned. And the idea that the commissioner is there to Physically check up on these leaders to make sure that they are doing their jobs. Make these leaders accountable. is pretty much bound to make the commissioner unwelcome. The unit leader may have a very good working relationship with the IH. The idea that you're going to go to the IH and tell him or her to remove the unit leader because he or she doesn't want a visit from the unit commissioner just sounds ludicrous to me.