Oak Tree

In practice I would almost always take an experienced Cub leader over someone with no experience. Assuming, of course, that the other characteristics were relatively equal. I want someone who is familiar with the program, and in addition, that person usually has the advantage of knowing the other parents and has a good relationship with them, knows how the CO works, knows the logistics, knows some of the Scouts, etc. For the same reason, I would probably take an effective Cub Scout leader over an unknown Eagle Scout. Among the different experiences as Cub Scout leaders, I'd probably give a slight nod to the CM, as he has more experience with some of the aspects of unit leadership. But individual characteristics are going to trump everything. Now, all of the traits that have been mentioned above are relevent, eh? There are certain traits you look for in a CM, and there are other traits you look for in an SM. Like Barry, I've been both. I suspect he did very well at both jobs, and as objective as I can be about myself, it looks like I've been relatively effective at both as well. As CM, I put on a show. It was great fun, but actually, as SM, it's kind of a relief not to have to do that every month. They are very different positions, but there are certainly some skill sets that are relevant to both. So, to answer Scoutfish's original question, I think the characteristics that make a great Scoutmaster are primarily things that are not listed in the question. But some proof of effectiveness and knowledge of the person's temperament are the best thing you can get, and some experience in the program is a secondary factor. Does it take some time to re-train? Yes, but I think it takes longer to train from scratch. In reality, though, we're usually picking a SM from a very small pool.

Fun campouts are not pointless! Absolutely you can do that. Go for it.

I too understand what people mean when they object to adults using "my troop", but I just find it to be a ridiculous way to express this concern. People use the word "my" all the time to mean "the one I am associated with". My homeowners association doesn't allow petunias. My town has a monthly town hall. My team won the AFL championship. My church allows women to be pastors. My home country is great, but I have more opportunities in the U.S. A wedding photographer might say My wedding this weekend is going to be a huge event with thousands of guests. Yes, sometimes "my" can mean "the one I own/control/direct/possess", but that's not the only meaning. I'm all for people who want to say "the troop I serve", I just don't feel the need to be one of them.

And for comparison, here's what the national site says about BALOO training. This training is required for any adult who is in charge of planning a pack campout.

if they do everything their 1st couple seasons, then by Web II you have a hard time getting them to stick around. There is a lot of truth to that. This happens a lot to programs that get stale, both at the Cub level and even more so at the Boy Scout level. It takes work to identify new and different things to do, places to give more opportunities, and it often takes more leaders to make some of these things happen. In a lot of troops, you see a big drop off at around 14, as the Scouts have done everything that the troop has to offer, and don't want to hang around at troop meetings or camping trips for "more of the same". There is certainly a natural progression built into the program, and at the Cub level, where the adults have complete planning authority, you can also introduce some "artificial" progression, as you decide which age groups might have opportunities to do what. I personally like to take everyone camping as much as I can, so I wouldn't make that too much part of the progression, but the program is set up for Webelos to do more camping than the younger kids, for sure. For the record, here's what I found on Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Leaders on the national web site: Webelos den leaders should attend this training before conducting Webelos overnight camping with the boys and parents of the den. It says "should", not "must" or "are required to".

Lisabob, It's supposed to be. But because the Scoutmaster is the visible leader of the program, a lot of the parents come to him directly. Also, he is the one that parents are most likely to complain about, so he's the one who benefits the most directly from having a good relationship with as many parents as possible. And because he is leading on the program side, he's the most likely one to have an up-to-the-minute handle on the issues. The first time I saw Barry's estimate, I thought "Yes! Someone else sees the same thing!" Oak Tree

it's a waste of time trying to track down the information on the BSA National website. This is generally true in my experience as well. It's just not organized conveniently to get to where you want to go. In this case, though, it's even worse than that. The data just isn't there, according to Google. But it is official.

Yeah, ScoutNut, I agree that it could be a big deal to a 4th-grader. That fact is not yet in evidence, though. Right now it's just a dispute with three adults involved, from how I read it. I wouldn't want to deny the Webelos Scout the badge, either, but I'd suggest there are polite ways to effect some change. Re-reading your post, I realize that there was really only one word that I would have toned down (and your post wasn't the most strident one, for sure.) You suggested a pretty good method of approaching it, as far as I was concerned. The only change I would make would be to replace 'show him the policies' with 'show him what the Webelos Scout and his parent learned from the Webelos book'. I think you're right with the way you started your response to me - the more you can make the discussion about what's best for the Webelos Scout, the better. And the book says something like "When a Webelos Scout passes requirements, he takes his book to the Webelos den leader or an adult the leader designates." "Get with your commissioner and District Advancement Chair if all else fails." - This would be a pretty extreme case. Wouldn't it be easier just to make a fun game of memorizing the Oath and Law and being done with it?

"must be WELOT trained " - can you show me a reference for this? I don't believe this to be the case, but I'll take a look at a reference. "I don't think that stating that the Tiger den is going camping, and the rest of the Pack can come along too if they want, but everyone else will have to plan their own activities, meals, accommodations, etc, is what BSA has in mind for a Pack campout." - I agree, ScoutNut. It's not what they had in mind. But the program is flexible. "on the PACK CALENDAR, with a PACK BUDGET. It must be communicated as a PACK EVENT, with the entire Pack encouraged to attend. There must be activities included for all age and ability levels. " I think these are all typical things, but I don't think they are mandatory. Our pack actually has two types of campings trips. One, the more formal ones, which are held as you describe, and are well-attended. The other, a much smaller group, are just some extra chances for camping with other pack families, where it's up to everyone who comes to figure out what their own activities are. "If they den camp as a wolf, what's left until they are in a Boy Scout unit?" I really don't like this argument, which might be somewhat of a personal thing, because I heard it all the time as Cubmaster from various places. "Don't do the fun stuff now." Good grief. When the kids get older, the troop can do more stuff that's more exciting and age-appropriate for them. Take the Webelos somewhere that you wouldn't take the Wolves. Take the Boy Scouts places you wouldn't take Webelos. I decided that it was up to the troop to take care of their own program. As Cubmaster, I wasn't going to intentionally lessen my program. And anyway, I'd actually argue it can go the other direction. The families who camp a lot when the kids are young get them very much into the habit, so it's just natural to keep doing it when they are older. Anyway, I'll stick by my answer to WestCoastScouter.

Yeah, WestCoastScouter, I've had that question too. My answer is that for it to be a "pack campout", you have to invite the pack. You also have to follow the pack campout rules, which is mainly that you have to have a BALOO-trained leader. But you could do it. Just send out an email to the pack - "Den 3 is planning a camping trip to Letchworth State Park. They plan to do various den activities together. Anyone in the pack is invited to come along, but will need to plan their own activities." I think that would meet the requirement. If no one else comes along, it's still a pack campout. I don't think you need to organize anything, beyond making sure that there's enough space. I think they use the words "family campout" to emphasize that parents are always invited along and would normally be expected to attend camping trips with their son.

Well, Scoutfish, it's not really the same. Webelos leaders do not have to register as anything else. I guess the principle that is the same is that the award should be approved by the person who is stated as having that authority. For merit badges, it would be someone who is registered as a merit badge counselor, which is indeed a separate registration - although in our council those registrations are so poorly done as to make it almost worthless to actually spend the time filling out the paperwork. For the Webelos badge, it's the Webelos den leader who has the authority. For all those of you who say you should confront the Cubmaster with the rules, it seems to me like that's possibly creating a bigger conflict than necessary. If we had someone who was constantly quoting rules and second-guessing leaders, that person would become fairly unpopular. This is a pretty minor violation in the grand scheme - I'd hold my fire for the more serious issues.

No, it's not common. In fact, I'd say it's pretty uncommon, except for combining den chief with another position. Most troops actually go the other way, giving Scouts positions to make sure that they can advance, even if the position (librarian, historian, whatever) has few or no real duties.

As appealing of an admonition as that is (all-a-dook-a-haz-ar), I'm thinking The Dukes of Hazzard was definitely a 1980's tv "drama", and it was certainly not set in the Great Depression, since 1969 Dodge Chargers were not a common sight in the 1930's.

The powers-that-be in our council have indicated they don't think it's worth a drive. Nice to see if it's close by, but I can't imagine going out of my way to get there.

I'm ok with all different troops running all different kinds of programs. I don't really like the perjorative labelling of other units. But if I were to suggest what symptoms would indicate a 'mill', there are a couple that stand out. 1. Scouts all earn their badges at the same time. Just as everyone graduates from school at the same time. 2. Scouts all (or mostly) earn Eagle at age 14 or so. 3. Scouts mostly drop out after earning Eagle. But some of the so-called "Eagle mills" are very successful troops with lots more going for them. In the council of my youth, there was one troop that always had the most Eagles. They also were the most active troop, the most popular troop, etc. Good for them. I don't think that just having lots of Eagles makes you a mill.

Not officially allowed. The approved answer is to put your nephew in a tent with your son, and have you sleep alone. Or your nephew could sleep alone, but that's probably not what you want. A few times I've slept alone on a campout, after my kids got to the point where they wanted to stay in a tent with a friend. It's nice.

We never let an individual den get bigger than 13. One time we split one den, we had the two den leaders sit down and divvy up the kids. They worked it out ok. Primarily they appeared to focus on giving each den an equal number of the more challenging kids - there wasn't too much debate on the rest. Another time we split one with essentially all the longer-tenure kids staying in one den, and all the newer kids splitting off to form their own den. Depending on friendships, and amount of parental involvement, this is a process that could possibly cause some issues. And the bigger deal you make out of the split, the more possible "helpful input" you might get. I had thought about what I'd do if we had to split a den and no other den leader could be found. I think I would have put the kids (of all the non-volunteers) into a hat, and drawn them out randomly and assigned them to dens. And in the worst case, if a den has no den leader step forward, then the den disbands. It doesn't even have to be a random selection, depending on a variety of factors. My pack has never disbanded a den, but I do know a CM that did have to do that. Sometimes that has to be the threat (even if it's just implied, initially). If people know that there is a backup option (i.e., that good old Joe will let us stay in his den if none of us volunteer), they are that much less likely to step forward. In your case, I would definitely go with three dens given the numbers that you have right now.

Eagle92 - I think a "17 yr. star" would be a pretty unique item :-) If God's not a UNC fan, then why he did make the sky Carolina blue? I hadn't thought about it, but apparently BSA is also a UNC supporter.

When you say that you have been placed in the middle on this, who is on the other side? Are some parents complaining? I agree with you that on point 1 he is increasing the requirements. Whether this is an issue worth fighting over, I don't know. Is this the one item that is going to prevent some Webelos Scouts from getting their Webelos badge? I'd try something like this: "Hey, Mr. CM, I've heard some grumbling that you are increasing the requirements for Webelos. Any suggestion on how I should respond to those complaints when I hear them?" See how he responds, and take the conversation from there. If he's truly "by the book", then he should be fine with doing what the book says, and all the book says is "explain". As for his wanting to do the testing himself, I'd let that one go. Unless there's some sort of big scheduling problem, it shouldn't really matter who does the testing. Plus, if they don't actually have to recite the Oath and Law, then this problem would go away anyhow. I think it would be reasonable if he said that he wanted to test all the Arrow of Light candidates himself - kind of makes the issue feel a little more important. You are correct on the technical point - the den leader has the authority to sign the book.

You have it correct. If the unit has existed for 25 years or more, everyone in the unit can wear the bar. Service stars represent individual tenure.

I'm not so sure that there's no such thing as a dumb question. I'm pretty sure I've heard some seriously dumb questions. There was this one woman in my Wood Badge class... But no, Scoutfish, I haven't seen any dumb questions from you. Basic questions, sure. Questions from being new to the program, yes. But that's all expected. Those aren't dumb questions. New leaders are great. Wanting to learn is even better. Ask away.

I can confirm the Second Class thing. In my dad's Handbook for Boys from 1949, it states "Second Class Scouts may earn five Merit Badges from a list of forty-six." And just to show that things were apparently never simple, in addition to those five, they could also earn the four aviation merit badges and First Aid, or a total of 10. Very few of the choices exist today by the same name. A Second Class Scout might have earned badges like Aeronautics, Aerodynamics, Airplane Design, Airplane Structure, Beef Production, Corn Farming, Dairying, Farm Layout and Building Arrangement, and Fruit Culture.

I wasn't following the global warming thread. I'm fine with the decision to close the gay thread. It had certainly strayed a bit beyond what I had requested when I started it, and I too am not a big fan of any threatening behavior in a forum. Sometimes I wonder if it might be better to censor individuals, rather than closing threads, but I know that can quickly seem heavy-handed as well. I'm not as sure about the 'typical troop' thread. It seemed to me that GaHB was asking for commentary on his own personal perception of troops. As such, it didn't seem out of hand just yet. Now, it does seem like it could very easily have gotten out of hand, based on some of the statements therein. Also, it included way too many topics for an initial post. Still, I think I could have responded civilly to that one.

NJCubScouter, congratulations on starting a thread where you enticed Merlyn to contribute a joke. You must have a good sense of humor if you can pull good humor out of others. I am confident that such people as described in your post would absolutely be forfeiting all of their Scout insurance. :-)

Scoutfish, As with so many things, I think the answer is "It depends." There are some rules about what you need for boating or swimming, but for activities in general, there is no rule. And it would vary a lot. We had three adults managing 35 boys at Scout camp - everything worked fine. The Scouts were older, more mature, and the troop is functioning smoothly. I've been on other trips where five leaders weren't enough to manage 15 Boy Scouts. For Cub Scouts, we never really came anywhere close to a limit, because we always had so many parents around. I think it would depend on the boys, on how close a watch you needed to keep on them, on your available transportation or the ease with which you could call for backup, etc. And it's going to depend on good the adults are at managing the kids. I think that your suggestion of roughly two leaders per den sounds like a reasonable starting point.