Oak Tree

I interpret it that one week of summer camp is permitted, regardless of whether the the Scouts pitched their own tent or were in an adirondack. But no more than one week. I agree it's up to the counselor, but in practice, many counselors ask me for my interpretation of any gray-area requirements.

Calls for volunteers just don't work and have very rarely worked. This is the number one point I make to everyone who calls for volunteers. It is far, far more effective to ask individuals to take on particular tasks. For events like this, I'd suggest moving to a more collaborative model. Have a group meeting. Go to a specific set of people that you want help from, tell them that you think they would be valuable as pack leaders, and that you'd like to have them come to the meeting particularly to help with planning X. Then throw out the general idea, and see if they want the pack to do X. Do they take ownership of the event? Then you have to let them have it, for the most part. If they don't follow through and make things happen, then the event doesn't happen. I guess it's an "ultimatum", but I wouldn't use that word. You're trying to build an organization, not looking to fire employees. Not every event has to happen. What events do the parents really like? Which ones do they want to have continue? Get them to step up to those.

How is withholding information from scouts about available opportunities helping them in any way? There are a thousand things I can promote. I can promote the new outdoor awards. I can use my limited time with the Scouts to highlight service projects or troop activities. I'm trying to steer the Scouts towards the events that I think will be most beneficial for them and for the troop. I don't have to promote the council camporee, and I'm not obligated to bring to the Scouts every possible opportunity that someone mentions to me. I don't see it as "withholding" information, because I'm not the owner of this particular information. I see it as making an intelligent choice about where to encourage my Scouts to spend their time. I guess it's possible I could bring all the opportunities forward in a more formal sense, but I don't have enough time to do all the stuff I'd like to do already. I've grown more protective of my time. At some point I realized I don't have to answer the phone when it rings, I don't have to treat my district commissioners emails as a high priority, and I don't have to keep track of all the opportunities that are presented to me.

I think if you use the term, you have to say it with a British accent.

It's my opinion that the G2SS does not adequately address this situation, especially with regards to Cub Scouts. My interpretation is that because the G2SS is so clearly inadequate in this situation, it's up to the leaders to use their judgment, following a few principles. Camp at an aquarium and everyone's in one big room. Camp on the USS Yorktown, and all the men and boys are in one large room. Camp in cabins, and each den is in one large cabin. It is not a reasonable expectation to have the aquarium provide multiple rooms, nor to divide up a huge space. It's not reasonable to leave an entire room or cabin full of nothing but Cub Scouts. You can throw the G2SS out the window on this one, and it especially gets negative points for acting like it does address this situation. You want private changing areas. Beyond that, is it really a problem to have a large group of people sleeping in one large open space? This same issue can come up with changing rooms, too. If you get to some public aquatics facility and have to change into swimsuits, you generally have to do it in a public locker room, which does not always provide separate changing stalls. You can't demand that the rest of the public leaves, and it seems safer to have your adults there with the kids than to leave them alone with a bunch of strange adults. You can try to plan ahead to avoid the situation, but if it comes up, just use your judgment.

We've never held a true "family" outing. We do permit chaperones to bring along siblings if they are willing to take full responsibility. However it hardly ever happens. If we were to try a real family trip, we'd set it up pretty differently. I don't think we'd focus on the patrol method.

I would have no objection to current event questions, but neither would I worry about them. Our council guide says:The board of review should cover, but is not limited to, these topics:Scout Spirit - living the Scout Oath and Law in his daily life. Scout Participation - what has he accomplished in Scouting. Merit Badges - what they mean to him; his assessment of their value. Duty to God, Country, Home and Self - what these ideas represent to him and how he's demonstrated his commitment to them. Eagle Scout Service Project - Although the project idea must be approved before work is begun, the board of review must determine the manner in which the project was carried out. Questions that must be addressed include: Did the scout demonstrate leadership of others? Did he direct the project rather than do the work himself? Was the project of real value to the religious institution, school or community group? Does the letter from the project recipient verify the projects value? Did the project follow the approved plan? Were changes needed to bring it to its completion?Future Plans - Discuss his Life Purpose Statement; his personal, educational, and Scouting future; his sense of obligation to the Scouts coming along behind him.

It does say Insignia Guide, but it sounds a lot more like Boy Scout Requirements. We have until May to find out. The 2011 Requirements book is on sale now.

HobcawChaos, I stand corrected. You are right, the $0.15 fee per transaction is gone.

You could make an argument that the red vest is not "official". But there is nowhere that it's written that there is a distinction between "formal" events where the vest is not welcome and "informal" events where the vest is ok. Essentially, it's like any jacket that might be worn on top of the uniform. Are they prohibited at all times? Does this same adult who is making this rule also make sure that Cub Scouts always have official Scout socks on whenever they wear the uniform? Good grief. What adult is trying to suck the fun out of Cub Scouting? If some Cub Scout wants to wear the red vest, which is clearly designed to be worn with the uniform, why would you stop him?

As UCEagle72 says, go to www.squareup.com Anyone (don't have to be a registered business or anything) can take credit cards with their cell phone. Taking payment with a credit card doesn't change the taxability, it doesn't change whether it is a donation, it's no different than if they hand you cash or checks. We always end up with some bad checks from popcorn. I think the credit card fees might be cheaper. The fee is actually 2.75% + 0.15 per transaction. Not a big deal on the more expensive purchases, but if you're buying a $3.50 box of cookies, that can add up. That's why you see some convenience stores saying they won't take credit cards for purchases under some minimum.

Kevin, No such regulation exists. Ask the person who stated that to show you the regulation. If someone wants a particular flag ceremony to be without vests, just ask for that. Don't try to turn it into some so-called rule. Let the kids have fun.

Our council and district occasionally hold them, but I just never forward on the information. If someone finds out about it through another channel, they'd be welcome to go, but that hasn't ever happened, I don't think. I get all kinds of things that I don't forward on. Scout night at Pro Team X, or Harlem Globetrotters, or Minor League team Y, or Ice Capades, or whatever. I figure, if it comes to me, it's my choice what to do with it. I'm happy to camp in the rain or snow, but I have no interest in watching monster trucks. I also have no real interest in promoting merit badge universities. Our guys seem to be able to earn Eagle without them, so it's just one more headache I don't need.

Yes. This is a problem. (I'll put in another plug to check out or http://tinyurl.com/4uhympy for more disucssion on this topic.) How do we stunt the hunter, warrior? (I'm not sure about gatherer). Zero-tolerance policies. Be nice. What do we do to the adventurer? Sit still. Don't take risks. I'm not sure I get number 3. It seems like women still like men. I agree men want women. They want to be admired and respected and loved. But women still like bad boys, I think. Or are the nice guys getting all the women now? The biggest change I see here is that women no longer need a man to be the provider, and that's a bit of a change, but don't let that stop you from going out and winning a woman. By and large, women are doing much better in colleges than men are now. What to do? Go forth, men! Play with rocks, and knives. Climb trees. Run with scissors! Throw off the shackles of your quilting club. Go compete! Take on some intellectual challenges and don't apologize for being smart! Challenge authority! Decide for yourself when the G2SS should apply! Buy a car with a big engine. Stomp on the gas pedal. Enjoy the throaty roar. Impress the women. Go work out with a buddy and see who can lift the most weight. Look a woman in the eye and ask, "How you doin', baby?" If she blows you off, find another. There are plenty of fish in the sea, and you can win one. The male mystique is not about being a nice guy. It's about going after your goals, being confident and self-assured, being interesting, being a maverick. When you're being nice to people, make it obvious that you're putting a veneer of civilization on top of a guy who would be quite willing to shoot someone if necessary. You are a large member of the cat family, prowling the jungle. You look good, you walk confidently, and people have the sense that it's dangerous to provoke you. Aaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrr! (Wow, I feel great.)

The Scoutmaster could bring it to a head, too. He could say, "I've been approved by the COR/IH to oversee the troop program. Unless they remove me, program decisions go through me, not the committee. The boys will elect their own leaders." Of course, that sets you up for a pretty bang-up adult clash. Going in quoting rules and books isn't going to fix this. At all. If you want to change the troop, you're going to have to change minds, or at least recruit advocates. The Scoutmaster and the CC need to agree on their vision here. You can pick your battles, or you can fight every possible battle until people are sick of you and banish you and all your crazy new-fangled ideas on how to run a troop. Sure it's an unusual method, but there's no reason it wouldn't work. Lots of organizations select leaders in ways like this. I believe LDS troops often have the SPL appointed by the SM. Some of the time, the adults and kids agree on who would do a good job. Sometimes, there's a kid who puts on a good face for adults but isn't respected by the kids. Is this particular election going to go so badly that you want to fight it. Should they do it this way? No. Can they? Yes. Can you find someone in authority who will stop them? Unknown, but I would guess not. Can't hurt to look around and see what everyone thinks (SM, CC, COR, IH). Good luck.

We have a membership coordinator whose job it is to do all of that. The treasurer is also involved, in that we have to take a check from the family and turn in another, smaller check to council. The membership coordinator enters all of the individual's personal information in TroopMaster. We have a separate advancement chair, who is primarily in charge of TroopMaster, and covers advancement, positions of responsibility, etc. We also have an activities chair, who enters all of the trip information in TroopMaster.

The insignia guide recomends you wear no more the 9 knots but its only a recomendation. I've never seen this anywhere. Can you provide a page number or link where I could find it? Sea Scouts has a limit, but I've seen a recommended limit for the Boy Scout uniform. I did find this quote in the official policy, where it lists several reasons for the uniform, including: Achievement. The uniform shows the wearer's activity, responsibility, and achievement. What each youth or adult member has accomplished with program opportunities can be recognized by the insignia worn on the uniform.At the same time, it also says Members should make every effort to keep their uniforms neat and uncluttered. The things this goes on to describe, though, sound more like "Don't have multiple positions of responsibility on your uniform at once. Don't stick temporary badges everywhere. Adults shouldn't wear youth rank badges or merit badges." BSA gives out the awards. They appear to encourage you to wear them, at least to some point. Why is it therefore counter to the BSA's ideals to wear them? That just sounds bizarre. I've known some great people with lots of knots, and I've known some great people with no knots. I've had people with one knot say that they won't get a second one because they'd have to get trained and they already know it all and therefore won't go to training. That's more arrogant than anything I've heard the most decorated people say. If someone has given 10 or 20 years to Scouting, I'm happy to recognize him for all he's accomplished, and I'd say he'd be welcome to wear as many or as few knots as he wants to.

I will tell them that the DC needs to be removed from his District position for making trouble in the units he's supposed to be supporting. You're welcome to do this. I don't know that a different approach would be any better. But here's what I would do. I wouldn't focus on telling them what they should do. They clearly already understand that this guy screwed up. They might already be ready to fire him, but that's hard to know. What I would say is something like: "Our DE, who is supposed to be supporting our program, has instead become a source of great frustration to our leaders. He has lied about us, lied to us, misrepresented our words, and tried to have us removed, all for no apparent cause. We find ourselves completely unable to trust him moving forward, and to protect ourselves, we don't expect to be involved in any district or council activity where we might encounter him. Our unit has been in turmoil, our adults have been ready to quit Scouting altogether, our emotional energy is shot, and our focus has been removed from the boys. We really want to thank those at council who took the time to understand the entire issue and tried to put things right. But things can't possibly seem right to us if we continue to encounter our DE, because every interaction brings back a memory of the pain and discord." People generally don't like to be told what to do. They do often like to view themselves as doing the right thing, and it should be obvious what the right thing here is.

Like Lisabob, I look at some of the attitudes represented here and think "I've never seen that." Certainly I didn't see any student or staff member at my Wood Badge express any opinion like that. Maybe I just don't run in the Good Old Boy circles, but they did ask me to be on staff this year, so it doesn't appear that any such club membership is required. The staffers I saw did a good job teaching the material. Sure, some of it was a repeat of stuff I've had before. But the course was well done, and our patrol had a great time. The networking was excellent (one reason I wouldn't recommend taking Wood Badge out of council). I haven't heard anyone say that the old Wood Badge course was inadequate. I don't think it was. Nor is the new the end-all and be-all of training. It's a training course. I tried to learn what I could, and network where I could. There were one or two students who didn't seem to have the best attitude, but otherwise, people were enthusiastic. It's fun to be around enthusiastic people. Sometimes I feel like this forum doesn't provide that - it's easy for cynicism to creep in - but there are a few who make up for it.

does the SMC have to be done prior to the BOR? Yes. The purposes of the board of review include the objective: "To make sure the Scout has done what he was supposed to do for the rank." Also, "When a boy satisfactorily completes his board of review for a rank, tenure for his next rank begins immediately." It doesn't say 'unless he has another requirement to complete.' And "After a Scout has completed all requirements for [ranks], he appears before a board of review." [emphasis added] I'm with Twocubdad on how to handle Scoutmaster conferences by the letter of the law - but the same practical result can be achieved in any number of ways.

Around here we regularly see LDS people at roundtable, at the University of Scouting, at district events, and at training sessions as both students and instructors. From what I've seen, that's all good and the people doing that are fine. However, it's also the case that in the council office it appears to be an accepted fact that LDS units are hard to get a hold of, will be the last ones to verify their membership rolls, and generally seem to be more likely to be off the reservation. And yes, I've seen non-LDS units do that, and there look to be some good LDS units, but statistically there's definitely a difference. The LDS units stand out for reasons both important and unimportant. There is constantly a distinction being made "LDS troops will camp together over near the exit at the district camporee so that they can all leave on Saturday evening without disrupting the other troops." Or, "We're going to run IOLS on two Saturdays to accommodate the LDS units." Or, "LDS troops don't split up their boys this way", "LDS troops don't choose their leaders this way", "LDS troops work hard to have all their boys earn Eagle by age 15", "LDS leaders have their own training week at Philmont." I'd prefer not to have one group that so consistently stood out as being just a little bit different. Are the differences bad? I'm sure we could debate each one individually. Quite honestly, it doesn't affect me much. They can run their troops their way, and I can watch them and learn from them just as I'd watch and learn from any other troop.

I'm trying to think of what support I need or want from my council. The answer I find is not much, but there are some items that are convenient, and there are some items we've made some use of. I do expect my council to be polite to me, tell me the truth, answer questions about the program, etc. They do all of these things. The most convenient support I receive is that council operates the Scout store. It's nice that it's well-stocked. I guess I could order everything from national, but it's nice that I don't have to. The district sponsors roundtables. These are fine, but in reality, I'm not sure I learn all that much. The district offers training and the council runs the UoS. Training, in general, is not great and could mostly be replaced with on-line education and actual testing to verify that you've learned the material. University of Scouting is actually pretty good. Wood Badge was well done. It's nice that these are provided, but I view them as bonuses. Most of the other leaders in the troop don't make too much use of them. The district helps with rechartering. This is clearly a process that should be entirely on-line and could be done by a national center. Special events - I don't know. I guess it would be nice if they came to a big award ceremony. We did have a Scout funeral - multiple tv cameras, probably 600 people. No one from council. It was ok with me. They weren't the people who were special to the Scout. But the DE did arrange for a guest speaker for our troop meeting and he attended that meeting. It was very well done. Camporees - We usually go to our district camporee but only occasionally go to the council camporee. They've been good some years, not so good other years. Really, I think our Scouts would be just as happy to do something else that month, and sometimes they do plan options. We usually have at least some Scouts who want to go to the district camporee because of tap-out. That's another thing the district does - run the local OA chapter. Our Scouts hardly make any use of it. The council processes our tour permits. This is a virtually useless process. The same thing could be accomplished just by having us enter the data via a web form and they could store it somewhere. It's not like they need to "approve" it anyways. They've provided us a unit commissioner. We've had some nice people over the years. Always friendly. Rarely did we have anything we asked them to do at all. District Eagle boards. I guess the district pretty much has to have some way to do these. Ours is working pretty well. My sense is that the biggest things the council does are 1) try to start new units, 2) raise money, 3) run a summer camp, and 4) fight fires. Our troop didn't get started that way, we don't benefit much from the fund-raising, and we go out of council for summer camp. Someone has to be there to deal with the inevitable personality conflicts or youth protection violations or whatever, but I can't recall anyone in the troop talking to council on an issue like this since I've been SM. I know of one or two items earlier in troop history. So what do I really expect of council? 1. Be reasonably effective at processing whatever bureaucracy is being imposed on the units. (tour permits, recharter, provide any required training, ...) 2. Run a good Scout store. 3. Help do the Eagle boards of review (district, really) 4. Be polite/friendly/reasonable, don't lie, don't be jerks. Everything above that is a bonus. RRR3 - what do you expect from council? So far we've heard about two items - attendance at a heroism award, and expecting them to process the award without lying. I do expect the latter, but would view the former as just a bonus. You clearly perceive some serious issues here, but I don't think we've really seen enough to understand. Why do you think they lied to you about the heroism paperwork? Do they have it out for you and/or your Scouts? Were they embarrassed by their incompetence and didn't want to admit to it? At any rate, no, I don't see the same problems you do. Some other forum members do, and have posted about them in the past. At the same time, as long the council lets us run the program, I don't really expect much else from them.

I typically see my UC once a month at roundtable, where I also see my DC. I'm happy to see them, we're friendly. There's really nothing I need from them, though. I think a good UC can be helpful to a unit, just as any experienced Scouter can. I'd be happy to have more volunteers, but I don't need them to stop by at meetings and just check in on us. I don't really expect anything of my UC, but if he helps out, that's a bonus. SeattlePioneer - you sounds like you're doing good work. I know my DC seems to put in about 70 hours a week doing Scouting stuff - he's retired and this is what is his focus. People in these positions who are truly working to help the units can be a great asset. I don't think it's easy to find them, and a good unit can easily function without them, but like every volunteer, the things you do can make a big difference to those that you're working with. Thanks for your service.

This is troubling all the way around, no matter what. The boys complained to their parents, but wouldn't mention anything in the troop. The parents execute a power play to remove the Scoutmaster. The CC/COR/IH/UC/DE go along with this. It's all just very sad, and a bit odd. Stosh acknowledges that the root of the problem was communication. I've always envied his ability to focus on working with the boys, but I always felt I had to spend half my time talking with adults about the program (or sending out emails that accomplish some of that same "good news preaching"). I don't really blame the Scouts - I can imagine them wanting not to act like they are not doing their assignments when they're with the troop - and it's really hard to know how the interpersonal relationships are shaping up. But no one came back to discuss this with the Scoutmaster? No one? I'm really amazed by this. I guess I can see how it might happen with a Scoutmaster who devotes 100% of his time to working with the boys. Especially if he happened to do something that rubbed someone the wrong way. Things like that can fester - and without communication to wear away any perceived rough edges, I guess eventually it can explode. It's really a shame, all the way around.

The most accurate way to figure it would probably be the total number of eagles related to the total that left scouting that year. Pack212Scouter, that's a reasonable method. In any given year, approximately 50,000 Eagles leave Scouting. Approximately 300,000 Scouts leave Scouting altogether. So 16.7% of Scouts are Eagles. Once upon a time I did a long post on this topic, tracing an imagined set of cohorts of Scouts through the system and having various numbers of them drop out in various years and various numbers of them earning Eagle in various years. In the end, all it shows is that you can use the average numbers per year just as well.