Oak Tree

... ... ...thinking ... ... ...what would I really do if this happened?... ... ... ...hmmm ... ... OK, Twocubdad has talked me off the ledge. If I got this email, I think I'd just look at it bemusedly and think, "I'll go ahead and register my guy, but I bet he's going to get a lot of flak on this one." I might even forward it on to the Chapter Advisor and say "Bill, did you know about this? I'll be curious to see the responses. Seems like it might be overkill. I wonder if he'll get the response he hoped for. (and yes, I did register my OA Rep). - Oak" If someone from my troop showed up and they actually tried to turn him away because we weren't registered (a situation that I actually find pretty hard to imagine) then I would definitely become a bit more aggressive about reaching out to people. Either way, I'd expect the policy to die out pretty quickly. I just wouldn't start out by burning up bridges and demanding policy documents, yada yada yada.

>> He may say that he has the parent's agreement. Who knows? > Does that matter? Yes, in determining the seriousness of the offense, it does matter. The circumstances always matter. You are free to decide that you literally have to call your SE at any time when any leader ever ends up in any one-on-one situation with a Scout. We had one cold-weather camping trip where a Scout woke up in the middle of the night and threw up. We moved him into the tent with his dad and another adult. There's a youth protection violation. Call the SE. I actually think it would be pretty amusing if people took this requirement literally, and any time that there was even one second of one-on-one contact, they called their SE. I feel fairly certain the requirement would get changed. I like acco40's actual suggested approach: "I would approach the Scoutmaster is a non-accusaatory manor and ask him (or her) to explain to you the YPT rules and use that opportunity to educate yourself and possibly have more light shone on the subject."

Here's the way I read it - We want a contact for each troop. If the troop isn't even willing to give us a contact, then they can't participate. I mean, there are additional requirements that aren't written down. Maybe it's that you must return certain emails, or talk to someone on the phone, or something. I think the rule is a ham-handed one and there are friendlier ways to do it, and maybe it's somehow more complicated than I realize, but sometimes I'm just amazed at how eager people are to pick fights over little things. What about this? The new OA Advisor decides the details on the next chapter meeting will be sent out via email to the OA Reps who are registered. No requirement that you register. Is that ok? Sure, it's adding to the requirements. We add to the requirements all the time. We might require that the Scout finds a way to get to the meeting. Or that the Scout actually reads his email or finds some other way to access troop information. We might require that a Scout be able to tell time. Or open snail mail that comes to his house. Maybe Scoutfish is right. I might need a break from the forum.

Let me give a big round of support for Eamonn. This forum is the only place many of these arguments happen. Sometimes I wish people here could get along as well as Scouters do in all of the in-person get-togethers I've ever been a part of. But other times I can think that this is just what the forum is - a place for lively debate. And really, it's pretty good here now. Back when I first starting reading the forum, the poster that Eamonn refers to, who shall not be named, was just awful. There were a significant number of posters who stopped participating just because of him. He got himself suspended from the forum. At times I thought he was a troll or a parody of what a hard-line book-thumper would say. At yet Eamonn met him in person and reported him to be a very nice guy. I do think there are a few times when people could be a bit nicer to new posters. Nobody wants to post how they're doing things just to have others tear them down. That is one thing I do find about the forum - it's much harder to share any ideas about how your unit varies from the BSA policy, whereas in small in-person groups in classes or whatever, those conversations go on all the time. It's just a bunch of bits on a computer screen. Go ahead and vent, get it out of your system. I've actually never met anyone from the forum in real life - I think things might be better if we did know each other. (Well, technically there was one poster that I could identify in real life, but I knew him in person before he posted.) (Oh, and P.S., I think you may have exaggerated just a wee bit in making your point... :-) And don't mind Packsaddle - it takes awhile to fatten them up, so he doesn't get to feast all that often.

I agree that playing fast and loose with the rules can be one of many indicators you should pay attention to. I didn't mean to imply that you should ignore someone who does that. What I was trying to say was, I don't think that one incident like this is equivalent to "playing fast and loose with the rules." OGE could give us more examples of what he meant, but I'm guessing it was more than one time, it was more serious incidents, and the leader was clearly intentionally doing it. Even the unusual situations become easier to avoid if it becomes part of the unit's culture. Other parents know that they can't take the next-to-last kid and leave the Scoutmaster alone with one. There are various subtle things that happen when everyone is naturally looking to prevent the situation. That said, there are still going to be times when you might have to use your judgment. There is not, for example, a rule against leaving a Scout alone at the church when all the leaders leave. So if the next-to-last kid has to leave with his parents, one thing you could do would just be to leave as well. That may not be the most prudent step. Different rules and principles and risks are always in play at different levels, and you have to use your judgment on how to balance them. In the nephew case, Scoutfish could just say his nephew can't come. But that would interfere with one of his principles that he wants to provide fun opportunities for his nephew and see him consistently going to Scout meetings. I don't know what principle was at work in the Scoutmaster's mind on this trip. He may not have even thought about it. He may just apologize. He may say that he has the parent's agreement. Who knows? In this case, the appearance is bad, too. I've never had any reason to think of doing this on a group trip somewhere. Don't do it if you can avoid it, but use judgment with the rules and with getting people to follow the rules.

In the parent thread, Eagle92 said that custom patrol patches would "hurt the patrol if they have uniform inspections as part of events, like district and council camporees." Our district has never had uniform inspections at a camporee. We don't always go to the council camporees, but I don't ever remember seeing one there, either. Nor at summer camp, nor from a unit commissioner. The only inspections we've ever had have been done within the unit. Is it common for there to be uniform inspections at events in other places?

The story that OGE posts is terrible. May that never happen to any of our units. But still, as a result of that, am I going to call the SE to report that Scoutfish is violating youth protection guidelines by driving his nephew to the meeting? I'm still going to come down on the side of good judgment here. The story said "the boy visited Ritter at his former home in Palmyra Township, Pike County, and slept over Ritters house on several occasions." As Beavah says, that's where the abuse usually takes place. I'm not sure I'd say that this leader is playing fast and loose with the rules, the way Ritter was. Sure, have a friendly conversation with the Scoutmaster. See what he says. I'd be curious to hear what the SE would say if you called him...I cannot imagine that a Scoutmaster would be removed based on this isolated incident. Even if it happened again in a few months. Personally I can't imagine calling the SE based on this, but hey, have at it. If the Scoutmaster was taking a Scout into his tent, that's a different situation. Runintherain, those comments about extreme positions aren't really directed at you - your question is a reasonable one. It's more directed at some of the other respondents, in the way of the forum. Primary rule to remember, once you post, you have to let go of the conversation as it will go all over the place.

There is little that is more miserable than camping in cold weather when you are not prepared for it. You'll find that attitudes on these things vary by troop. Most of our guys don't mind camping in a passing thunderstorm. On the other hand, if there are going to be unrelenting storms for the last six hours of the trip, I think we'd all be fine with just packing up early. I don't think Scouting has changed much at all in these areas, and certainly there is no national trend towards "hardening our boys up by teaching them to endure" - if anything, trends seem to be in the other direction. Somehow there is not a match between your boys and/or you and the troop leadership - it sounds like you don't trust them, and they don't trust you. I'm guessing these are different leaders than the ones you dealt with 10 years ago. Maybe you should just find a troop that's a better match. What do your sons think? What reason did the leaders give? As for the tornado warnings - I think it just depends. We just had some pretty devastating tornadoes here - national news and everything. But it doesn't look like being in a house was much protection. And the actual number of homes damaged is a tiny fraction of the number in the warning area. Did your area have an actual warning and not a watch? Warnings usually only last for about 30 minutes and then they are done. You can't really pack up for a warning; pretty much all you can do is seek shelter. Who knows what another troop would do? It depends on a lot of variables. There are times when I've been happy to pack up, and there are other times when parents called up worried about the conditions and I knew the concerns were ridiculous. But I've never kicked a kid out because his parent pulled him for concern about the conditions. I'm thinking something just got off on the wrong foot here. Just look around, ask around, and try again. I'm sure you can find a place you and your sons will be happier.

Jeez, I keep saying I'm happy with my professionals and yet... "tent platforms that are rotting and cots that collapse." Where do you think the money to repair and replace those items comes from? FOS. So keep your money, and see where that gets you. As far as I'm concerned, the council should price their camp so that they can provide tents and cots as part of the standard fee. Heck, we go out of council for summer camp. I don't think that council's people should be donating money for the cots that we use. your Cubs never got to shoot archery or BB guns? This is a long story, and it goes back to our first time at a district cub-o-ree. They did get to shoot BB guns and bows and arrows there. They just had to stand in a line that was a hundred people long, wait about an hour (and dang, it was hot), and get to shoot five arrows or BBs after listening to a safety lecture that took about eight times longer than the actual shooting time. This was part of the reason that we decided not to go back...even though it sounded cool, it wasn't worth it. We did end up with some other opportunities later, but it's a complicated story and again it was better because it didn't involve a whole district of Scouts. I think if I were to do it again, we'd just take the Cub Scouts to an actual shooting range run by a shooting club and pay a $5 or $10 fee per person and shoot BB guns or bows and arrows. Look - I'm not saying I don't get any value from the district. Talk to Abel or BasementDweller if you want to argue with someone who seems to be receiving negative value from their professionals. My former two DEs I liked pretty well and saw regularly. This new guy I haven't seen at all in something like five months since he took on the job. I literally do not know what he is doing. Maybe he's working with problem units or new units. Maybe he's trying to replace a membership chair. Maybe he's raising money. I don't know. I didn't see him at the district camporee. I'm the Scoutmaster for one of the biggest troops in the district - I would just think I might be seeing a bit more of him - but I'm OK that I'm not, because I'm assuming he's working on things that are important, and also because, and this is key, *I don't really him to do anything*. I would just be curious to see a summary of a month of his time and how much was spent where. Not because I don't trust him, but because I'm honestly curious about how his time is split up.

I encourage custom patrol patches, but we always have them fit the standard circle. I would not want to dampen the guys' enthusiasm, though. Were they told they could do any shape or size that they wanted? How much larger are we talking? Is it a different shape? How long would you expect these patrol patches would be around (do you change patrol names every six months, or every six decades)? I'd go back to the TwoCub Doctrine: Pride and Enthusiasm trump uniform rules and guidelines.

I'm with qwazse on this one - the last thing a Scoutmaster wants is some type of "gotcha" mentality among the parents where they are going to report to the CC every time they notice the SM doing something in a gray area. It may be that a couple of cars were traveling together and the SM doesn't feel that there is any YPT violation in that situation. Just ask him about it. Your troop sounds quite active and reasonably on top of things, and your past posts show you've been happy with the SM's judgment before. Quite honestly, the risk of anything bad happening in this scenario is pretty minimal. Scoutmasters always have the opportunity to have private conversations with Scouts. Still, I emphasize that for consistency and for avoiding any possible appearance of impropriety, I would recommend avoiding the situation when practical. In this case, give the guy a break. It's not like he's doing the job for the money. Find a way to help him, rather than complain about him.

Yes, I would view this as a violation of the youth protection requirements for no one-on-one situations - it is a situation we try to avoid. I did have it come up once though that there were only two of us going in one direction, and as we're good friends with the family, I checked with the mom and she agreed that we'd just treat it like "friends of the family" for the drive. So if the Scout's parents already know about it and are ok with it, I wouldn't sweat it much. If there were more people available, then it would be good to set a good example and go by the book, and I wouldn't like to see it as a regular practice.

Why not just go on the site and register someone? If you have someone who wants to participate in OA, make them the OA rep. Am I missing something? Why would this be hard?

I guess I'd ask myself, "What good do I think will come from my mentioning this again?" Is he likely to realize the error of his ways and repent? I'm guessing not. What you need to do is get yourself invited as the guest speaker at a pack meeting, where you can talk about the contribution that disabled veterans have made to the country. Talk about how your husband was so happy to have a son, and when you look at a father and his son (and here you point to or look at the scout leader in question), you're reminded of how your husband looked at his own son. You see all these kids and the way they look at their fathers, and while your son admires your husband very much, you wish your son could look at his father in person the same way that these kids do. Talk about some of the ways that a country recognizes its disabled veterans - it accords them various honors (e.g., Purple Hearts), and even helps out with small items like handicapped parking spots. These are but small tokens compared to what these men and women have given up. When you watch a parade, and a disabled veteran comes past, and the people give him a standing ovation, it just tears at your heartstrings and fills you with pride that these people recognize what the veterans have done for them. And every one of the fathers in the room now has the chance to lead their own sons every day. The boys hear what their fathers say. They watch what their fathers do. You've heard stories of Vietnam and how disabled soldiers returned to their country to be spit upon, and you can't imagine the ache this must have caused. You wince when people talk dismissively about the disabled. You feel betrayed when you see a non-handicapped person parking in a handicapped spot. You cry for those soldiers who can't manage to get themselves reintegrated into society. You thank them for their time, tell them you're proud of them for the good examples that you know they are setting for their sons.

Our committee meetings happen during a troop meeting, so the SPL has other things to do to occupy his time. I would think that mostly he would find it boring. Driver reimbursement policy, merit badge counselor recruiting, when to schedule the Friends of Scouting pitch - I really don't think he's missing much.

> Ummmm. I wonder how THAT happened! I don't think it was the council professionals whipping up some JavaScript. I know National does stuff. We also pay dues to National. The question asked at the beginning of the thread was what DEs and SEs do.

Lisa's description of Frank is great. That's the kind of thing that resonates with me. Even if the DE is spending his time with weaker units, helping them, I can understand that. All I can say to you is no man or unit is an island but it sounds to me that's what you view yourself as and believe me you are in the minority. I wouldn't call us an island. More like we're steering our own fairly standard ship (units). Things are going well, we don't need the Coast Guard (professionals), even though it's nice to know they are out there if we need them. Like it or not you and your unit are part of a council that provides services and facilities to all units whether you use them or not. Yep, that's a good sales pitch. "We're going to offer this function whether you want it or not, and now we'd like you to pay for it." Online training is just for the very basic stuff, the more advanced training can not be done online and you know that. I agree, and I did say that making sure the training chair is in place was the one obvious valid duty that we encountered (and remember, I'm talking from the pack perspective now - the troop has a bit more interaction with the council. We've had a fair number of people take BALOO and a few go to University of Scouting. So there is indeed a little bit of value there. Rechartering online most councils still don't have that ability, That goes back to my complaint about inefficient processes - it cannot be that hard to do chartering online. but who do you think processes the online charters? Processes? Mails me a piece of paper? Again, can't be that hard for a computer to do. Your pack doesn't attend cub summer camp and other camp experiences offered for them, then it sounds like you are depriving your boys of some fun experiences and that is just sad. Sigh. I'm not depriving anyone of anything. I always informed everyone about the day camp options, the Webelos resident camp options, we even tried a district Cub Scout camporee once. A few people went to day camp, and it was OK. I think I was the only one who took my son to Webelos resident camp, and it wasn't too bad. We never tried another pack-level district event with the Cubs after the first one. It's not that it was bad - it's just that our unit events were better. We offered a great program, we did tons of stuff. We doubled the size of the pack. I had parents come up to me years later and tell me they really appreciated what a quality Cub Scout program we ran. In all honesty you sound a little out of touch with how the scouting program is supposed to work. Just smiling to myself over that comment. You can be as independent as you like, but in the long run all you are doing is depriving your boys of some activities that the pack alone can not provide. Again, not depriving. Actually, I think it's very difficult for a district to offer opportunities that are equivalent to what a pack can offer. A pack can set up events where there are no long lines, where they can visit very cool places that hold limited numbers of people, where they can be flexible and adjust their activities as the day progresses, where they can get everyone together for a quick moment and communicate, where the Cub Scouts can all have a turn up front without it taking three hours to get through everyone, etc. There are hard-working professionals out there, and I get along fine with mine. But their work is mostly behind-the-scenes, and quite honestly, a lot of it is focused on problem units and new units and fundraising, and I do think it's the case that well-running units, and packs especially, don't make a lot of use of the professionals. And that's ok. But I don't think it makes sense then to come into the unit and try to sell me on how much the council is doing for us.

no training, no camps, no scout supplies for your unit, no one to get your unit registered and re chartered, no facilities for unit, district or council functions, no one to trouble shoot unit problems beyond the scope of the UC, etc So, as a Cub Scout leader - most training is on-line; we have no need for the camps although we did make some very sporadic use of them; registering and chartering is (or should be) on-line; never used any council facilities for unit functions and the district functions like roundtable and training are always at churches; never had any problems that needed attention from the UC let alone anyone higher up. Someone does have to make sure the training chair is in place, and I have no doubt that there are lots of other behind-the-scenes things that have to take place - but those particular examples aren't the best way to get the value of the council across, to me, anyway.

We've gone with the "no shelves" route for now. When we go on a bike trip, we can fill the trailer with bikes hanging from the ceiling. When we go to summer camp, we fill it with trunks. For most other trips, we pack it with our patrol boxes on the bottom layer and put personal gear on top. It's not as efficient for any one particular function, but it does serve a whole bunch of functions.

I clicked on the map for the Burlington, Iowa classes. It gives me a point on the map of Wilmington, NC. It's a slightly different spot in downtown Wilmington from where the Wilmington classes are held. It appears to be at 218 N. Third St, which is the address for the Des Moines Red Cross chapter in Burlington. Looks like it's just a bad location for the Des Moines chapter. Imagine if you were from there and trying to find a class. You'd never think to search in Wilmington, NC.

I just tried the same web search you did (more or less, I guess), and I got six courses in Wilmington, NC and nine courses in Burlington, IA (Iowa). I searched on all CPR/AED classes. It's hard to explain any database that will return Iowa and North Carolina on a 25 mile radius of a zip code search. Have you received a new zip code at any point? Our zip code got updated a few years back and it took a long time before all the web sites could be relied upon to do the search correctly.

Ok, looking back on your first post, you say "The numbers are not correct" - but when I call the phone number, I get the answering machine for the American Red Cross.

The phone number listed at http://capefearredcross.org/ContactUs.aspx works. You can always try the old-fashioned way and talk to a real person :-)

I think you'd have to know someone pretty well before such a suggestion would be received very well. Especially if I were to make such a suggestion out of the blue. If a parent was coming to me in such a way as to say 'I'm at the end of my rope and I don't know what to do' then maybe I would make a suggestion like that. People usually aren't quite so forthcoming with their problems. I did know one guy well enough to talk about it, but he was already getting counseling. I don't think it's beyond reason to imagine that I might suggest it to someone at some point...or that it's somehow out of bounds...but I don't think the right context is going to arise very often. I did have one family recently tell me that they were in family counseling, and what recommendation the counselor had made, and I agreed with it. So at least for that one data point, the counseling was being effective at changing the parents' behavior.

You were hoping for a magic bullet? Just emphasize the law and all of sudden they'll follow it? Give them guidance and understanding and continuous positive reinforcement of good behaviors (with some incentives that actually matter to them). Invest time. Do your best as a parent or leader, and still things won't always work out in the end. There are times when very opposite kids come out of the same family. I don't think the law is to be used as a club to get people to obey, no. I think of the law as aspirational.