Oak Tree

The planning guide does not cover all of the rules at Philmont. Troops receive significant additional information. I don't know whether the issue is mentioned or not, but absence from the planning guide is not much evidence in favor the policy. The planning guide does specifically list "tents" as crew gear.

At some point it can be hard to tell the difference between a "tarp" and a "tent". It is a bit difficult to understand Philmont's reasoning on this, I agree. From the given reason, one could also argue that tents shouldn't have vestibules, because sometimes people cook in their vestibule during inclement weather. Now, if they have some evidence to back up the rule, then I'd be happy to listen. Do they regularly have bears wandering into camp and checking out tarps but leaving tents alone? How does a bear tell the difference between a tarp and a tent? Is it that a tarp is open at the ends? (Personally, this is the annoying thing about tarps - it eliminates privacy and allows wind-blown rain in.) What if you bring a tent fly? How is that different from a tarp? I'd just be curious to hear how they define tarp vs tent. How about the Six Moons Designs Lunar Solo?

BSA needs to fund his salary from registrations, shop/camp profits, and general donations. This would be a change to the BSA model. I could argue that this would be a good change, but as it is, it doesn't work that way. Council gets no money from registrations. That goes to National and to the unit. I don't know whether councils get much shop profit, but I doubt it. I highly doubt that virtually any council makes a camp profit. And general donations is what they are asking for :-) If you are using general to mean from people not currently involved in Scouting then I think it's only a very rare council who has enough of those. One possibility would certainly be to increase the yearly registration fee. It would have to go up a lot, though, to make up for Friends of Scouting.

I don't have anything "official" like paper work etc. Yeah, Renax127, I remember when my son first started Cub Scouts and I was surprised at the complete lack of anything resembling official paperwork. They just gave us a list of everything that could have been done at all of the stations, and assumed that every Cub Scout went through every station. This is something to get used to. Scouting is run by volunteers and it isn't highly organized, in any sense. Just use your best judgment and the best available evidence as to who's completed what. Our council shop would sell the belt loops to anyone, and our council would let us do BB's and archery as a "council" event when we were the only pack at camp. Every council and district is a bit different in terms of how much checking they do on the various items all through Scouts. If all the boys actually shot the guns and the arrows, I'd give them the belt loops.

I wouldn't advance him. Is there anyone who might donate swim lessons? A member of a YMCA who could take him in as a guest? Anyone who might donate some money to cover the cost? Lessons can be surprisingly effective. Or, if a Scout really doesn't like the idea of lessons, just going to the pool regularly and doing a little bit of work on swimming each time can be a big help. It's hard to learn with only sporadic contact with a pool. We have had kids learn at summer camp. One of our adults went down to the beginners class and worked with them one-on-one all week long.

The site very much comes across as a work-in-progress. You're going to get your most useful feedback from users, who will request that you fix things or add features. Maybe you would want to give away a year's worth of service to some troops to see if you can build up a user base. I think you're going to find that some troops want more granular security controls, so that certain people have read-only access to some data, and so that parents automatically have access to their own kids. I personally don't like the phrase "Pass off" - I've never heard it used in our troop. I'd just make it a checkbox. What these programs do is not all that complicated - it's basically a database. But there are lots of fine points. Can you give me a list of all the awards I need for the next court of honor? Do you take into account the prior service that leaders have with other units in calculating their service stars? Reports of which leaders need which training? Right now it seems like this site might be a step up for a unit that uses no software now, but it's going to be a step down for anyone using any other program.

Yeah, sorry if I came across as uninformed. People mean all kinds of things by 'tarp'. Found the reference: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=38350 It is a bear safety issue. Since the tarp is used to cook under in poor weather, the smell of food and possible spilled food will be under it. Even if your crew never used the tarp to cook under, bears will learn from other crews who were not so neat that food may exist under the tarp and come investigate. For this safety reason, Philmont has the rule that sleeping under a tarp (dining or personal) is not allowed. A tent is required.

Ok, now, don't go all Kudu on me here, Beav (no disrespect, Kudu :-)) I did admit right up front that you could manage a troop with no software whatsoever, but I'll note that BSA does actually have a troop webmaster position of responsibility these days. What's a lad to do if the adults won't go ahead and give him a site that he can play with? (Rhetorical question, no answers, please.) In the old days the Scoutmaster tracked advancement somewhere. They always had sheets available for those purposes. Sure, you could just use the books, but it's handy to know which Scouts might benefit from activity X. Counting up merit badges for the courts of honor is a lot easier with a big troop if you have some software for the purpose. Adults sent home newsletters. People called each other on the phone. I'm astonished at how inefficient we were. Now I find it hard to have the patience to listen to an answering machine message. Voice is such a slow way to send a message. But ok, I'll grant you, there's a set of you who don't want any software at all. Feel free to chime in. Maybe I'll start another thread on whether the adults should really be doing these functions at all. What about those of you who might use software? Any features above and beyond 'none' that are appealing?

I had never had any counselor interpret that requirement the way you did TAHAWK, although I can see how it's a valid interpretation. My take:If I were writing the merit badge requirements I wouldn't use the word including unless I said including but not limited to or if there was a catch-all at the end and any other injuries common to your area. I would not list the first aid requirements at all. They are a repeat of other requirements, they are often ridiculous, they are too frequently the same from badge to badge, and I doubt very much that they contribute to any actual safety. I find it strange for you to focus on this very minor item as a big beef with National Council. The national policy is clear - the counselor is the one who interprets the requirement. There's not going to be any "clarification" until a new book comes out. So yes, your point that their grammar is imprecise is correct. It can lead to varying interpretations from counselor to counselor. That happens in much bigger and more important ways all the time. Some of the variation is intentional. I'd suggest you relax and not worry about it, but I doubt you'd take the advice and I think it might be fun to watch your quixotic crusade for precision in BSA materials.(This message has been edited by Oak Tree)

We were recently served milk that had been frozen and was about a month past its expiration date. The milk tasted fine, but it was hard to put it in my mouth after I saw the date on the carton.

Since the parent thread was a bit contentious around the subject, I thought I'd start off with a bit more general topic. What features would I like to see in Scout software in general? I use TroopMaster and am very familiar with most of its nuances TroopMaster, TroopMaster DotNet, TroopMaster Web, you name it. I could produce quite a list of the little foibles that I would most like to see improved. Having not used the scoutboost.com, nor troopwebhost.com, nor scoutingplanner.com, nor scoutspirit.com, nor trooptrack.com I'm not as able to give a complete listing of what all I might find missing about them. First off, I was a little bit surprised to find that four other online versions already existed which would seem to indicate we wouldn't need another one in scoutboost, but I haven't done a detailed comparison. The prices vary, but scoutboost is not the cheapest. Now, I will say that TroopMaster can sure use some competition. It would be great if the new programs out there would force Troopmaster Software to offer a web-only option, for example. I would really only consider a new program if it were pretty much complete in terms of everything that TroopMaster already has - reports, training records, OA, Eagle honor roll, activity management, etc. There are a few TroopMaster features that we don't use - fundraisers, tribe of mic-o-say, Sea Scouts - but by and large it's a pretty good fit. I do like that I can take the program with me to an unconnected Scout camp and still record advancement. I want everyone in the troop to be able to log in. I want them to be able to go to the site and request an id that I get to approve. I'd like for the money management to be integrated, and to have a way for members to pay via PayPal or credit card. I'd like to have the adult training linked to National so that people could take the classes by following a link on the site and have their completion recorded. I want to be able to pull up an adult record on my smartphone and click on their phone number to be connected to them. I'd like it to be connected to some type of group account for managing pictures (like Picasa or Flickr). I like being able to track partial or complete merit badges and I'd like to associate counselors with partial badges. I want adults to be able to be listed as leaders/counselors/parents with only one listing and not have to duplicate any information anywhere. I want to be able to export the data into a spreadsheet. I'd like it to handle events, sign-ups, calendar entries, reminders, etc. It would need to have some type of file storage, some type of granular security controls, some email management, some mobile option, backup, dealing with multiple people accessing it, allowing for a custom domain name, maybe some type of forum or wiki. What about others? Are there particular features that you'd like to see in Scout software? Yes, I know you can manage a troop without software...

It's actually Neili's commentary on another study: http://www.mindingthecampus.com/originals/2010/07/how_diversity_punishes_asians.html "Participation in such Red State activities as high school ROTC, 4-H clubs, or the Future Farmers of America was found to reduce very substantially a student's chances of gaining admission to the competitive private colleges in the NSCE database on an all-other-things-considered basis." The actual study is by Princeton sociologist Thomas Espenshade and his colleague Alexandria Radford. It appears to be this book or something similar: http://www.amazon.com/Longer-Separate-Not-Yet-Equal/dp/0691141606/vdare I would expect that Scouts would be considered very much the same as the other organizations, if not worse, given that it's the only such organization with an anti-gay policy.

the boys have been highly resistant to pants When I re-read this, it doesn't sound quite right. The boys are in favor of pants - no one has yet shown up without them - it's the mandatory Scout pants that they aren't in favor of. Lisabob, I think you're right, the last discussion was with the old pants and the new pants are better. But my recollection is that it wasn't really the pants that were the issue, it was the idea of making them required. The new pants would be an easier sell, I agree, but I think the essence of the argument from the boys will be "Why?" They see several reasons not to like the pants - extra hassle, extra money, etc - but no real reason to want them. I suspect that rebelling against some imposed authority is also part of it - I notice that many of them remove the shirt at their earliest convenience, so adding more uniform isn't a move in the right direction in their minds. At the moment it's not an issue we're pursuing, but I do like to listen for ideas on how to approach the topic if it was something we decided we wanted to look at.

These? http://www.praypub.org/rec/

We're a little bit bigger than the above troops, but we don't have any limits either. We tried for a little while to slow our expansion, but it proved problematic to draw good lines around who could get it and who couldn't. I've talked with the largest troop in the district, and they don't have any limits either, except that both of our troops will redirect entire Webelos dens that approach us and want to visit. We get enough from our sister packs.

I'll echo Lisabob. Food can be more than $10, but it can also be less. A lot of times we have four meals, and the guys can often do the ingredients at $2.00 per person per meal - so $8.00 for food. There are state parks here that charge $1 per person per night if the facilities are unimproved (no flush toilets) - so that can be $2 per person. Backpacking in the national forest is free. Sometimes we've camped on private land for free too thanks to a generous land-owner. Gas is usually a bigger expense - a few years ago we didn't reimburse drivers, and not all of them always turn in receipts. But at $0.04 or $0.05 per mile, you could still go around 50 miles for $4. Yes, $10 is on the low end, but it's not unrealistically low. Now we estimate costs up front, and so we come in a little bit higher - but a basic camping trip isn't that much.

I think that setting the example is a necessary but not sufficient element. I'd like to hear what else people do. I always wear a completely correct uniform, but it's definitely not enough. The above quote is not accurate in our case. I do agree that if the Scoutmaster were to give up on a full uniform, the troop would follow. And setting the example is a great way to give the new Scouts the clear idea that the uniform is expected. In the past when we've brought up the topic with the PLC the boys have been highly resistant to pants.

I've heard this explained. My recollection is that people find it too convenient to cook under tarps and the tarps end up smelling like food, which then attracts bears. I also think that for Leave No Trace purposes, they don't want you to tie ropes to things, as constantly repeated actions of that nature can wear away the bark from trees. Is your tarp free-standing?

Your Scout store may or may not still have some in stock. If they still have some, they'll be happy to sell them to you, I'm sure.

In our council, you walk in, pick up the merit badge, take it to the counter, pay for it and walk out. If your son already is recorded as having this merit badge, I can't see why the troop would be upset that you were trying to buy another one or to duplicate the advancement record. You definitely shouldn't need to turn in an advancement report. Can't you just explain this? Your forum post is pretty clear - I'd think that would suffice. I'd just send out an email as ntrogt8r suggests.

Weekly meetings year-round except for holidays and summer camp week. Camping every month (11 weekends plus summer camp) as the minimum, plus additional events thrown in from time to time. Maybe an average of 15 possible overnight activities per year per Scout. We haven't missed a month or cancelled an event in at least the seven years my sons have been associated with the troop.

Ok, let's say I want to take a group of boys canoeing at a lake or down a river on a Saturday day-trip. I need to make sure that each of the boys and adults has passed a swim test. If they haven't, then I would need to make arrangements for a time and place where the swim test can be administered. I need to fill out a Tour Plan (assume for the sake of argument that I do need to fill out the plan and include all of the items that it asks for - maybe the water is in the next council over.) I need to know my BSA member number and the number for the second adult and when the memberships expire. All of the registered adults need to have taken Youth Protection training and I need to know the dates that the two leaders did it. I need to have an Annual Health and Medical Record for every participant (both youth and adult and not expired). I need to have a first aid kit. I need to have an roadside emergency kit. I need to have a current copy of Guide to Safe Scouting I need to get the signature of the committee chair or the COR One of the adults has to be trained in CPR and I need to know the date of the expiration. If no adult currently has CPR, then one would have to arrange to take the training. One of the adults has to have taken hazardous weather training and I need to know the expiration date. I need to know the make, model and year of each vehicle on the trip and how many seat belts it has. I need to know what insurance each driver has in terms of liability per person, per accident, and for property damage. I need the name and phone number for a contact who is not on the trip. I cannot allow two of the 17-year old Scouts to drive there in one car. I will know the number of youth and adults who will be attending the trip. I will need to know all of that tour planning information at least 21 days in advance and submit it to the council office (which may mean making a trip or finding a fax machine or something.) We need to enforce "buddy boats", even if all boats are within eyesight. If we are going to canoe down a river, we need for everyone to have three hours of training and supervised practice, or for them to "test out" by navigating a 100-yard course and recovering from a capsize. We need to file a float plan. If we wanted to let the guys swim around in a swimming hole out of the canoes, then we'd have a whole set of swimming guidelines to deal with that would almost make swimming impossible (although I'll note that swimming with the life jackets on can be ok).

The separate level pins didn't exist until BSA decided to make level specific hats and neckerchief slides. Nah, the separate hats and neckerchief slides existed long before the separate summertime pins.

I asked my son why he thought that all of the merit badges now have so many safety requirements, and why in particular the BSA is very concerned about people going on the internet. He said it's because the requirements are written by 50-year old men.

Pretty impressive - he still has a pretty big challenge in front of him. It looks like he'll have to hike well into December in order to get the entire trail done this year.