Oak Tree

When you see something you don't like, you have many options. Pick whichever one you want. But every now and then you might want to think about how effective you are being at getting the changes you'd like to see. If what you're doing is working for you, that's fine. If it's not working, that's something to think about. If you complain a lot, and then find that people don't like you - well, maybe that's a correlation and maybe it's not. I think a friend is more likely to get me to consider changing my mind.

Eamonn, on the Roman Catholic thing, you're right, I doubt that the church is going to change its view on homosexuality any time soon. Moosetracker captured my meaning exactly - I was thinking that Catholic churches would not abandon their Scout troops if other organizations were permitted to choose gay leaders for theirs. I'm not sure what would happen in our own case, since we are sponsored by a relatively conservative church. I suspect that the worst case would be that the church would say that they no longer want to be our official sponsor, but would allow us to keep meeting at the church.

When I see practices that seem out of place I say something. So, how's that working out for you?

If you allow CO's do set their own criteria for leaders, you have made it incumbent on those outside the organization to ask the right questions to know if this specific unit aligns with their personal belief system or not. This is exactly right, and it is also exactly the way it works on many other issues today. Some COs will only allow a Christian as Scoutmaster. Some only allow men. Do any COs have a known adulterer as a unit leader? How about physical characteristics - can a very overweight person be a leader? Someone who has a lot of debt? Someone who is depressed? The existing national standard is very minimal - don't have certain types of criminal records. Oh, and don't be a known homosexual or an atheist. Lots of units might have leaders that I don't think would be right for my son. I don't see any good reason why homosexuals are singled out for special treatment compared with those other things, and further, I've known gay people that would do a fine job. Is this really the one most important issue for national to have a standard on?

Well, actual bubbles are also physical phenomena, and they grow bigger and bigger and bigger and then pop. I realize I'm off-topic, but there are lots of physical phenomena that are very complex. Hard to model, too. :-)

When we file a tour permit, I figure it's to tell the council what we're doing. I'm not looking to them to approve anything. As it happens in our council, the council office seems to have the same opinion. If they started giving me grief or trying to "disapprove" my plans, I think I'd just quit submitting them. We'd follow the rules and camp wherever our unit decided was appropriate, just the way we do now. The "council-approved location" thing is a complete joke - if you verify that the site meets the mandatory items on http://www.scouting.org/filestore/CubScoutMeetingGuide/PDF/13-508.pdf, you should be good. And not even all of our state parks meet all of these requirements (no more than 300 feet from a toilet), but we're not going to use that technicality to invalidate possible sites. The real joke part is the idea that council is inspecting and approving these locations on a regular basis. Hah! The council doesn't need to approve your plan anyway. From the national site: The local council reviews the plans but does not "approve" them. I'm with Basement - are they really going to pull your charter for going camping?

"let them forget" I think it depends a lot of what it is that they are forgetting. There are some things that they'll learn from, and some things that will just make everyone miserable. This balance is one of the hardest things to get right. Troops can be "boy-led" into chaos, while the adults congratulate themselves that they have a "boy-run" troop even while most of the boys drop out due to utter disorganization. Other troops congratulate themselves on being "boy-led" while any outsider would clearly recognize the adults are running everything. That said, as SM, I do spend a bit of time whispering in the ears of my ASMs to step back, let the boys answer the question, or lead the conversation, or run the meeting. So yes, sometimes we forget things. But it doesn't mean it's always wrong for an adult to provide part of the framework - sometimes it's for the good of the unit that we not forget certain things.

there is no way to do it with the "least amount of shockwaves", Sure there is. Of all the ways you could do it, one of them has to create the fewest problems. You might think that it will always cause lots of problems, but some are worse than others. because doing it at all would result in the vast majority of troops and packs having to find new chartering organizations. Even if the current chartering organizations are still responsible for choosing their own leaders? The BSA had to deal with all schools dropping as chartered partners. That seemed to go ok. I'm sure that some units can find new chartering partners, but I'm not sure how many would need to. How can you tell? Are the Methodists all going to drop? The Catholics? Groups of citizens? Parent-teacher organizations (other than PTA)? Those are four of the top five groups from the BSA report quoted in wikipedia. The LDS can do whatever it wants - I don't think the rest of the BSA should worry about it. Also in the top ten are Lutheran churches - I'd bet the ELCA would be fine with the new policy. Presbyterian Churches - PCUSA is the biggest and I'd bet they would be fine with the change too. Then there are "Business and industry" and private schools. Will there be a wholesale departure here? Remember, all the new policy would say is that units are free to choose their own leaders. Sponsors from #11 to #17 are American Legion, Lions Club, Other Community Organizations, PTA, Community Centers, Rotary, Fire departments. Any of those have big concerns about the new policy? The United Church of Christ is #18 and they've endorsed gay marriage. The Episcopal Church is #19 and they've ordained gays. #20 is Disciples of Christ, and they don't look to be all that fundamental either. Might some drop? Sure. Might some add? Maybe. I don't know the immediate fallout any more than Eamonn does. And just as he says the policy is wrong, I'm saying it's doomed. It's going to grow bigger as an issue, it's going to look worse and worse, and it's going to come to and end.

This is an ongoing challenge that is just going to get worse. It *does* affect membership, and with the military's dropping of DADT, the BSA is just becoming more and more isolated in its position. The number of people who think of BSA as backwards will grow, and they won't even consider Scouts as a possible thing to participate in. The BSA needs to figure out a way to drop this policy in a manner that produces the least shock waves. I think I'd try to hire Robert Gates, the former secretary of defense, as the new chief. Do some surveys of the membership, so that they see the issue is under consideration. Run some education sessions. I'd like to think that the eventual change would be a non-event, just as it has been in the military.

90 minutes. I can't really imagine reducing them.

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I'm with Calico - the treasurer is absolutely responsible for providing monthly reports on the finances of the pack. It's not an optional kind of thing - that's the primary job of the treasurer. The CC definitely has the authority to demand it. The reports do not have to be open to everyone, although I would expect that summary reports should be. But the report has to be available to the CC.

I get that ad, and then an LL Bean ad, and then a Campmor ad. The ads are provided by google based on key words. We did a thread on llamas on purpose once and eventually we got ads related to llamas. For some reason, that t-shirt company pays to have their ads show up with the topics on the site. There are a few reasonable t-shirts in there that I could wear on a Scouting trip: - I (heart) bacon - I'd be unstoppable if not for law enforcement and physics - (Rock) (Paper) (Scissors) Can't we all just get along? - The police never think that it's as funny as you do. - I like pie

How active do you want to be? Our UC camps with us a couple of times a year. There are all kinds of volunteer things that a UC can do, but the only things I really expect/want him to do are the things that deal with the council. Help get some folks the knots they've earned. Find out if we can borrow equipment from the council. Help with recharter. Mostly it would be useful just to know that I can hand him a task related to council and have him take care of it. The thing I wouldn't do is give any directions. The UC is not in charge of the pack and it doesn't come across well if he tries to make any decrees.

My question for you would be, why do you want to have a Venturing crew? It must be that the troop isn't providing something that you'd like to see. Sure, there are a few activities that only Venturers are eligible for, but a troop could just dual-register all of its older boys as Venturers and then they could be eligible for all the same activities. I think the main reasons for a crew would be 1. girls, 2. those over 18, 3. the value of having a separate group where the older kids can hang out together without having all the middle school kids around, and 4. a vision of specializing in some type of activity that isn't regularly provided by the troop (a shooting group, or a boating group, or a climbing unit, or historical reenactment, etc).

There are some other arguments in favor of this approach, too. Our church has a rule that you need special approval to promote an assistant pastor to be the main pastor. I think there are several reasons why they do this: 1. they don't want the normal situation to be that the most senior local guy is the one who expects to get the top job - don't want anyone to take the position for granted; 2. there is likely to be some good talent outside the local organization and they want you to look for it; 3. it can be difficult for someone to become the boss of all of his or her former co-workers (this is true in my work environment too - we don't normally promote people directly one step up there either). There is also value in having people get experience in multiple councils so that they can bring more background to their position. Constantly moving new blood into councils might prevent some from developing their own dysfunctional culture (this is not foolproof, as Abel can attest). In the workplace I've seen a geographically isolated site really go astray and it would have been great to intermix their management with a bunch of other groups to fix that. That said, I agree there are a bunch of negatives to forcing the system to work the way it does.

Our district provides training sessions, roundtable, an annual camporee, Eagle boards, popcorn delivery, another district fundraiser coordination, a unit commissioner, recruiting help, recharter help. As a Cub Scout leader, I felt even less connection to the district/council - I went to roundtable but didn't get much out of it, and I felt like the trainings would be better online. We had a unit commissioner who didn't really do anything. The main thing they provided was the popcorn delivery, but I don't really see why UPS couldn't just deliver us the popcorn that we ordered. The biggest value was probably the flyers they sent into the schools that delivered us some new Tigers every year. At the Boy Scout level there is more value in knowing the other folks in the district, I've gotten some good ideas out of roundtables. I've asked the DE for help with a few items and he's been good. The training sessions are ok, but mostly I like that I get to meet other Scouters. The district camporee is pretty decent - we go back every year. I think many of the services could be automated and made more efficient and effective, but there is some intangible value that comes from knowing the other Scouters around, and you need some kind of reason to get together.

Our district puts flyers in all the schools and we have a district recruiting night where all the packs are represented. I don't know how many schools it comes out to, but I wouldn't be surprised to find we have kids from 20 different schools in the pack. There ends up being virtually no tie between any given school and a given pack.

le Voyageur - the downhill option is interesting, but really? I recall a scout who did the 50 miler requirement for the Cycling merit badge in an hour and a half....all downhill. That Scout cyclist would be averaging over 33 mph for 90 minutes. I've ridden a bike at over 33mph downhill, and it can easily be done, but it's normally a pretty steep grade. You'd need 50 miles of steep grade and still be keeping up a pretty serious pedaling effort for the hour and a half. Color me skeptical... Here's a 17 mile ride that is labelled the Longest and Fastest Downhill in America - averaging a 5.9% grade. http://www.oldguyonabicycle.com/?p=38 The Maui Downhill Bike Ride is about 28 miles in length and drops 6700 feet. It seems to come up frequently as the longest in the U.S. http://adventuremaui.com/biking_the_volcano.htm So where, outside of Tibet, did the Scout do this 50 mile downhill run in 90 minutes?

In addition to the expense, there is a lot of time involved. Maintaining a boat (or boats) is not an easy task. The two happiest days in a man's life: the day he buys his boat, and the day he sells it. Boating is like standing fully clothed in a cold shower tearing up hundred dollar bills.

Unless there is value in a roundtable, people won't come regularly. Ours is somewhere in between - it is good to get to know some people, but it's a lot of time investment. The information is almost entirely something that could easily be distributed via the district email list. And I think there are lots of better contexts for getting to know the rest of the Scouters. We had a roundtable where we planned the district camporee. Each group decided what they were doing for their station. This was useful - they needed something from me, I got relevant information, and I got to hear from other people what they were planning. This is the exception - the great majority of the time I would miss nothing other than rubbing a few elbows. I think I'd be better informed if there was a concentrated effort to distribute all the equivalent information via email.

Barry, lots of people know the policy, and lots of people don't know the policy. These are not contradictory statements. There are at least (2 x 'lots') of people in the US. Abel, yes, that's a statement - there are similar things around the web, but can you point to someplace that this appears in an official Scouting publication?

I don't think I've ever been told this in any publication for volunteers. This fact is commented upon in court cases by opponents of the policy - "The morality of homosexuality is not something discussed in the vast literature the Boy Scouts have published for use in Scouting" Maybe the BSA is trying to avoid a massive class action lawsuit by being as unspecific as possible on this issue allowing the CO's to take the lead in this matter. Nope, that's not it. The BSA is very specific on this topic in legal filings. They won a Supreme Court case, even. I think that they just don't see any benefit in putting this in their publications.

you can focus on the everyday skills you will need for our program like climbing knots, 2-person cooking on backpacking stoves, GPS, paddling, and bike maintenace. Over time I've come to see this as not being a problem. The focus points listed above are pretty good skills to have too. I used to worry about Scouts not knowing their knots, but now I figure they'll learn the things they really need for the trips that we actually go on, as opposed to trips that we might imagine we go on. I don't give the speech listed in the original post, and I wouldn't, but I'm not too far off from that sentiment.

Youth membership may not exceed 2 units I've had a number of youth who have been registered in three separate units with no problem.