NWScouter

I agree that it is a cheap shot. I know that many councils throughout the nation are cutting back because of lower giving as are many other non-profits. What Dave's does on his own time is own business. I thank Dave for the time he spends here as he gives us information that we as volunteers do not have access. Thanks Dave and I know you will find a new position in scouting.

BW, Reread these ---The leaders who set their own rules rather than follow the scouting methods see it as "my troop ----- When you say "my troop" you behave like it's "My Troop ----- leaders who think of it as such lead in a less positive manner than those who think of it a relate to it as "the troop I serve If you dont see those statement as implying that any one who uses the phrase my troop is a less than your perfect Scoutmaster, I cant help you

BW Lets look at this one: But an adult leader is not the sole owner of the troop, and to say so on a regular basis really does affect how you view your relationship to the unit. Saying that you get to serve as Scoutmaster of Troop 215 will give a person an entirely different view of thier role. When you say "My troop" often enough you act as if you are "the boss". The Scoutmasters who say say "if you don't like the way I do it find someone else" see it as "my troop". The leaders who set their own rules rather than follow the scouting methods see it as "my troop". The SM who takes offense to scouts who are absent due to school, family, or sports conflicts see it as "My troop". The SM who "tells" the committee what to do sees it as "My Troop". When you say "my troop" you behave like it's "My Troop". Posted 9-3-03 on Whose troop is it You describe behavior of a poor scoutmaster and you say that saying my troop leads to being a poor scoutmaster and imply that everyone who do it, is a poor scoutmaster. Where did either OGE or I say you had to stop saying "My Troop"? We are saying #1 it really isn't and #2 leaders who think of it as such lead in a less positive manner than those who think of it a relate to it as "the troop I serve". 9-2-03 on Whose troop is it Again you lump everyone together. Further down in that post you count up the number of times Ed had said my in his posts and then said What harm could it do to change your attitude to one of service rather than ownership? Implying just by his use of my that he needed a attitude change.

All I can say about that old post was that you BW, implied that everyone who used 'my' or 'mine' was completly wrong in their realationship to the units and were not good Scouters.

Venturing does have an advancement program and working with Cub Scouts would fit in some of the requirements.

We had open invite to bring any gear you wanted to sell to the Courts of Honor. If any showed up we would set a table in the corner of the fellowship hall and during the treats afterwards the selling would go on.

You feel undressed when you leave your pocketknife home to go on trip via a plane flight (or go to the courthouse for jury duty).

The scandal that you mention happened in the early 70s. I remember hearing it was widespread in the Chicago area but other areas around the council had it happen. Professionals were under pressure to make their membership numbers and enrolled 100s of scouts in the last month of the charter to make their goals. These were the days when you could become a Boy Scout for a buck or less and one month prorate was like a dime. It added up to 100,000 's of nonexistent Scouts. Many heads rolled over it. Now for the money to pay for the registrations that Eamonn mentions. They might be coming from a fund or special grant that is to be used for some specific narrow aim. This would be outside FOS and general operating funds. Not to say that their use in this situation may be stretching the purpose of that funding. I know our council has a bunch of money in its campership fund that it would love to give away. Sitting there it does no one any good, but sending a scout to camp does him good and helps pay for the camp. We find it hard to get parents to apply for it. But it is outside of FOS and the general budget and can only be used for camperships. Our camping director would love to it empty at the end of each summer and refilled every year in time for summer. More scouts to camp equals more money for camp program. I would think maybe someone in your council saw some money sitting somewhere that they could use to fund the new unit.

When I was a scoutmaster our troop would go through its copies of the advancement report and photocopy any with the scouts name on it any time a scout filled out his eagle application or when he moved and transferred. We had and I believe it is still around and thick three ring binder with every advancement report since the troop began 18 years ago. Its not fancy but it works. I was in the scout office a year ago when a scout came in and was sat down at table with his troops advancement file. It seems that some adult put all of the troops records on a PC, that man moved and took the PC with him. They had thrown out all the records and the scout needed the dates of his Merit Badges for his Eagle application. Paperwork, paperwork keeps things running smoothly.

Also how many CO's out there are "parents of" or 'friends of". We got a bunch of them when a few years back the PTA's in our area stopped chartering units (at that time because of liability issues). Then we have had efforts of DE to get local Rotary, Kiwanis, Jaycees and other civic groups to be CO's. They have become a pain because they have no links to the units and just getting a recharter signed becomes a major project.

All cannons need something to contain the pressure to make the boom. Most use wadding, something like a bunch of patches used in black powder guns. Getting hit by the wadding isnt fun either. About twenty years ago a women got hit in the leg by the wadding at Seattle Bastille day celebration (why we had one I dont know). She lost her leg and with the settlement she started a bar named Shellys Leg. It became the most famous gay bar in town. I dont think that Seattle is letting any one shoot off a cannon in the streets now.

Nowhere in the Constitution or its amendments limits the rights to only citizens. Courts through out our history have ruled that those rights are for all persons, who are on US soil. Now Gitmo has been used to house detainees for years in order to deny them civil rights granted under the constitution. That is why the Coast Guard grabs up boat people before the get their feet dry in Florida. If you go back before the Civil War, the important fact in the ruling was Drew Scott was a slave and therefore not a person.

FOG, I glad you're not running any scout camp. That attitude gets people hurt, maimed and killed every day. Work place rules are there to keep people safe. If the young man was properly trained and supervised he would most likely be alive today.

FOG, Taxation without representation was just one of the causes of the Revolution. Most of the issues were concerning due process, civil and economic rights. In fact taxation without representation is not wanting no taxes but protesting the (due) process that how taxes are determined. A few examples from the listing in the Declaration: For depriving us, in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury: For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences: For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies: For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

Let me make a stab at the questions. One Troop A is in deep danger and will be hard to turn around. There is something wrong when a unit loses 50% in a year. Meeting once a month is not enough and I am assuming that by the absence of comment they are not have an outing a month either. There is a lack of program to attract new Scouts. Training would help, but some how the best way would be to get new leadership in the Troop that would go to training, use the patrol method, offer more program , a outing a month and meeting weekly. The way would be first to convince the present leaders and parents the need for a change,. Then to identify a new Scoutmaster, maybe a Webelos Leader that has a den ready to cross over to boast the number of Scouts in the Troop. It is hard to get an exiting program going in a small Troop unless there is committed leadership that can pass on the vision to the Scouts, so they the Scouts can see what is possible. The questions also to me is why so many ASM. The number of Scouts doesnt seem to warrant it. I dont see the program in this Troop to keep aged out Scout coming back to help, that is where many good Troops register their 18 to 20 year olds. The lack of committee members, maybe that the Scoutmaster is not turning over jobs that committee should be doing. Troop B seems like a good Troop that a Commissioner shouldnt do much fiddling with. The number of committee members are not unusual, a larger unit has plenty of work to do. I once presented a University of Scouting course titled True Confessions of a Scoutmaster: I never fill out tour permits. The committee can do all that paperwork for the Scoutmaster so he can concentrate on the working with the Scouts. I would encourage a few more trained ASM. They seem to offer a lot of program that attracts new Scouts. The only unusual thing I see is no Scouts dropping out, even the most successful units in my experience, lose a few Scouts every year that find that Scouting is just not the thing for them. As their Commissioner I would just make sure they are getting information from the Council, encourage them to go to training, introduce them to Webelos leaders, answer their questions and make sure they are recognized for their good job.

My old troop had been doing it for at least ten, fifteen years. It shares the pain of waiting and the Scoutmaster is the only one exerting pressure, a little parental peer pressure goes a long way, to encourage parents to be on time.

I agree with BW, there is no BSA rules that would stop any driver from taking scouts to and from a meeting. Though if a scout wanted catch a ride home with a another scout when I was scoutmaster, I tried to make sure he had permission from his folks. I didn't want the flack from the parents. In Washington State now the rules for new drivers restrict them from giving a ride to anyone outside of their family. My youngest is 22 and the law was changed well after she started to drive so I'm not really up on all the details. Tour permits only are for activities of the unit. In the case of meetings the activities of the unit start at the meeting or meeting place.(This message has been edited by NWScouter)

I guess our council always seemed to promote it as a single course. That why I did not realize it was two parts.

BW, I think FOG is talking about Scoutmaster Specific having patrols and then you get new one in Outdoor Training. Where in the old Basic Leader Training you only have one course but you cover almost the same as the three courses now (the third being New Leader Essential. FOG must should realize they are two separate courses and many do not go directly from one to the other. So it would be foolish to think that patrols could be keep together. I do think the present way gives more information and can be better fit into the volunteers schedules. I like them even if it may be a little harder for the training team to do. I know it it is hard to figure out where FOG is coming from, but I think I may have got it right.

Rooster7, When I read your last post Im am reminded of one my favorite passages, I t comes to mind when I I get too certain in my interpretations of biblical truths. For now we see in mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood. 1Corinthians 13.12. For example Big Dog wants us to look at Romans 1.26-27 I ask you to look farther to verse 29 were Paul condemns envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, gossips, slanderers. haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, and ruthless. All of his lists in the first chapters of Romans are to remind us we are all sinners. No none is righteous, now not one Rm. 3. 10b. We are convicted by. For there is no distinction; since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God Rm. 3. 22b-23. I find it interesting that many Christians have a hierarchy of sin. Certain sins are greater than others and should be condemned more. If you study the totality of the Old and New Testament, you will find homosexuality mentioned only a few times but greed and mistreatment of the poor hundreds if not thousands of time. The other passage that discussions of this also brings to mind is Matthew 7.1 ff., there are a lot logs in our eyes. Also Rooster, the Bible is open for interpretation, thats why there are hundreds or maybe thousands of different Christian Church. Where you say there are maybe a thousand people you have meet that agree with you and I would say that there as many more out there that both agree and disagree with your beliefs. And they have dedicated themselves to the study of Gods word.

Opps, I didn't catch that typo. I never say I am infallible.

Copy write fees are necessary, for how else would the artists and producers of the movie get paid for what they do. For example when you buy a video for home use, you get a license for showing it to your family at home. You take that Lord of the Ring video to the OA fall fellowship and show it as part of the program, you dont have a license for that group performance and are in violation of copy write laws. I went through WB last year (02), and there are a lot of movie clips involved, all must get paid or the BSA would be sued. If any of you have done any of the religious awards administered by P.R.A.Y. God and Me, God and Family, etc. you will find on the award application a copy write fee if you send in a photocopy. There was money spent to develop the booklets and has to be recovered. Now on to a general comment about WB. Next year I will have twenty years in as an Scouter. People were surprised that I had been in leadership that long and had never gone to WB. When I was a new leader the cult as it seemed to me of WB turned me off. It seems the WB trainer clique as mentioned in an earlier post had such a superior attitude, bordering on if youre not beaded youre not a good leader, that I wanted no part of it. For many of the leaders seemed so consumed by WB that they were no earthly good for anything in the units or the districts. The new WB seems to not have that attitude and I believe it is a National policy not just our council that the course staff has to have significant portion of never been on staff before.

they camp Friday and Saturday

The term modify may be too strong a word. The LDS follows all of the methods and aims of Scouting but only changes the limits the age groups in their units. They still have the same advancement regulations, and use to same handbooks and participate in district, council and national events. They do not camp on Sunday or have women as Cubmasters, Scoutmasters, Coaches or Advisors. Women do not go camping with Scouts. All this changes have to do with tenets of their faith and under the prevue of the CO. In all other ways they are just like the rest of the Scouting world, some good units and leaders, some bad and some so-so.

Living out in the west many councils will find that a quarter and more of their units are LDS. The modifications that are done to accommodate the divisions of leadership that youth have in their Church. Therefore all programs are age based. Cubs start at 8, a new Scout program for 11 years old, with limited overnights, full Boy Scouts at 12, Varsity Scouts at 14 and Ventures at 16, 17 (no girls). This matches the needs of their church and I am sure that the BSA would do this for any Church.