Novice_Cubmaster

Hi KISMIF, I agree with Lisabob's 2nd point. I think the problem may not lie so much with the Cubmaster, but more with the lack of depth in your committee. You were saying, "He has also failed to follow-up in regards to setting up locations/times for events on a few occasions, where we've then had to change the date or location at the last minute. This makes the pack look very unorganized. I have been told by another DL that our COR is unhappy with the CM because of communication issues" Sounds like you need an Events person and a Communications person on your Committee. Being a Cubmaster (like any scouter position) is a full time job in itself. Maybe your CM would be a better CM if that's all he had to focus on. Even if you replace your current CM with somebody that's more Cubmasterly, you could still use some more people handling committee work. NC

The biggest discourtesy in our unit is that 50% of the parents don't know what "RSVP" means. The second is the long, noisy interval between "signs up" and the room getting quiet. But its a FAR second place to the RSVP issue. NC

"A bit of pedantry: The term "Scouts' Own" is now discouraged by National; we are to use "outdoor worship service" or "interfaith worship service." My first reaction was, "Oh, barf!" After thinking about it, I was right the first time. BrentAllen - I love the service you posted! NC(This message has been edited by novice_cubmaster)

Another reason may be that the religious facets of scouting are probably of the least importance to the boys. I think many of us adults suffer from wishful thinking that religion is as important to kids as it is to adults. NC

Hi all, Under a different topic (Working with Kids/Why is he here?), uz2bnowl stated: "Of course in a boy led organization, he (meaning all boys in this crowd, not just OJ) could grab the bull by the horns and run the show." I have to ask... How willing are most boys to "grab the bull by the horns"? Can the boys really run the show? More importantly, how many boys truly realize that they can? My oldest (age 14) has decided to drop out of scouts due to lack of interest. With a change in scoutmaster last year, the troop activities started getting repititious and less interesting. Most of the older scouts that my son "buddied up" with are close enough to their eagles that they're willing to put up with the status quo until they get their eagle & either quit or do venturing. From what I've seen, the rest of the scouts don't grasp the idea that they can really change things. (Actually, what's worse is the number of boys that are only in scouts because their parents have tied getting their drivers license to getting their eagle. They have no real vested interest in making the troop successful. But that's another story...) All that said, do adult leaders really give the scouts the authority to run a troop and do the scouts they understand they should have the authority to run their troop? Thanks NC

Dont know about guidelines, but it helps to keep a great big book of "what works at pack ###". Over the years, a pack will develop a wealth of knowledge - but too much of it exists only in various peoples' heads. Tis a good idea to keep track of things like: approximately how much money you spend per scout (which helps determine your popcorn goals), good places for Webelos to camp, how to put on a good Blue & Gold, etc.. Its good to have new ideas continuously, but not re-inventing the wheel really helps - especially if you've got something down pat. NC

I'm with Trev, I love mtm's plaque display. BrentAllen, I'm not too far down the road from you, but in our council the "Duty to God" campout is 100% Christian - which works out for a majority of our scouts, but by no means all. The problem is, there's no "Duty to other Gods" campout. It would probably be a lot of fun to propose one & see if I can get it to happen. NC

Hi all, Just to clarify - I started this topic asking a "real" question (and I thank all of you for your real answers) - not as an opening for the circular theists vs non-theists debate. While religion in scouting is definitely important to some percentage of scouters & parents, how important is it to the scouts themselves? The fact that advancement doesn't require earning the religious emblem and the low number of scouts that earn it says something. Like gwd-scouter, I've only seen two discussions about religion or spiritual matters initiated by a scout (both Boy Scouts, not Cubs). One was a very personal question of faith, the other general curiosity. I would like to see more scouts not just earn their emblems, but WANT to earn them, and learn more about their faith. Ah, but how to do this? From ASM915's post - "The best way is to lead by example. If the leaders aren't setting the example by showing their faith and Duty to God, why do we expect this of the Scouts?" In a unit with scouts of many faiths, what are some things we scouters can do? NC

Hi all, thanks for all the responses. As to "how much religion is there in Scouting?", based on the variety of responses, I think Trev nailed it - "As much as the CO and the Scout and his parents want". It sounds like there's enough variation from unit to unit today that the religious component of scouting, for all intents and purposes, already is a "local option" in practice. Assuming we're all honest about the DRP and follow the rules, there should be some religious aspect to scouting - but in reality, it doesn't have to be much. That's my observation at any rate; I leave it to others to argue whether this is a good thing or not. Thanks again for your responses. Have a good weekend - hopefully camping if it ain't too cold where you are already. NC.

So, how much religion is there really in Scouting? In the 8 years I've been a scout parent & 5 as a leader, I haven't seen much religion in any scout activity - short of grace before meals, an occasional blessing before a trip or event & some half-hearted "Scout's Own" services. I admit my familiarity is limited to one pack & one troop; but they have different COs, one Presbyterian, one Methodist. Other than an offhand complaint about having a "Holiday Party" instead of a Christmas Party - I've never heard any parent or scout express the slightest interest or concern about religious issues in scouting. We're in the suburbs of the Bible Belt, which makes this even more surprising. For the last couple of years, I have tried to get some interest going in my pack on the religious awards, but have only had 1 boy earn one. I know for some of us adults, the DRP and religion in Scouting are important - either pro or con. But I do have to wonder, do the boys give it a moments notice? And would you be a different scouter & put on a different program if the rules changed? Would love to hear from y'all.

The important question is - have at least one of the scouters taken official training on light bulb changing? I believe it takes a minimum of 4 hours, is only offered once a year & is not available online. NC

Hi JohnInKC, I agree, I don't go for praying to a universal deity either. But, I am careful picking the references I use at scout functions when saying grace, etc. - like "Lord" or "Heavenly Father". To the best of my knowledge, these allow darn near everybody to pray along & mentally equate the reference to their own faith. Perhaps a bit semantically squishy - but it works. In our pack, we don't do a "Scouts Own" on Sunday morning when camping, which makes the religious diversity almost a non-issue. We are big on saying grace at meals and an invocation at most events, though. It is a good thing for the kids (and parents too) to stop for a minute & remember we have a LOT to be thankful for - any day of the week. On a wacky tangent - anybody else remember a Far Side cartoon with a bunch of natives in front of a stone idol & the caption read "Thank Goran it's Friday". Well, I'm prohibited from thanking Goran - but I'm glad it's Friday (albeit 1AM). Shabbat Shalom (Sabbath's peace) to all. NC

Howdy, all. Regarding JohnInKC's statement, "As a Scouter, though, my duty is to allow families the latitude to choose and practice a faith tradition." I don't know that that goes far enough in a multi-religious unit. I think as a Scouter, my duty is, within reason, to aid & facilitate my scouts in their faith traditions while participating in Scout activities. That can take all sorts of forms - creating a kosher or vegetarian chuckbox, re-arranging duty rosters so various sabbath rules aren't broken, using universal references to God when saying grace before meals. None of this is a big deal, but it can prevent an observant scout (or parent) from seeing a conflict between Duty to God and Scouting. NC

John, I really like the idea of the CM being the Pack Trainer. I could see the CM being the trainer for the Den Leaders & the CC handling the committee members. What a great way for the scouters on the "program" side or the "operations" side to all be on the same page. PS - I do apologize for sounding negative regarding training. My wife & I have been scouters for 4 years, and the quality of training in our area has been inconsistant - plus, I have never liked instructors that basically read out loud from a fixed text. Roundtables, where you can hook up with somebody that's "been there, done that" have been a lot more valuable for ideas in real-world situations. NC

Hi Packmom, Sorry to tell you this - I don't think training will fix your biggest problems. Training will show you how to have fun pack meetings & keep them interesting - even if the CM mumbles in a monotone. However, training won't make your CM a better communicator, or listen to input from other committee members - which seems to me to be the big issue. It's possible that past experience convinced your CM that the awards chair was the only committee member worth dealing with. Likewise, if den leaders in the past weren't committed to den participation in pack meetings and other events, he may not feel its worth the effort now to involve them. How many of us have ever taken on a task we know we're not good at, but don't feel we can trust anybody else to help with. In which case, your CM needs to be shown that the rest of the leaders are truly ready, willing and able to work with him as team, and can be trusted to do their part - if he'll let them. Assuming that other Leaders & Committee Members feel the way you do, this is something that needs to be hashed out at a leaders meeting. Or if he doesn't go to leaders meetings, y'all need to catch him at the end of the next pack meeting. Hopefully, it is just a bad experience/trust issue with your CM & that it can be overcome. Or maybe he's just a control freak (and training won't fix that, either). NC

I was raised Catholic, but having converted to Judaism, I have no axe to grind one way or the other with the Pope. However, regarding: "In a recent statement, 7/12, the Pope has now declared that "All other Christian churches are not truly churches because they do not have a line of apostolic succession therefore the ordination of their clergy is not valid, and their traditions do not lead to salvation." This isn't news - that's been the official stance of the Catholic Church since the days of Martin Luther some 6-7 hundred years ago. Protestantism is considered heresy. I, for one, applaud a religious leader who has the backbone to say, "We believe that we're right, and if you believe differently - you're wrong". (As long as you don't go killing anybody about it...) NC

Corey, Per Wingnut, make sure all leaders are trained. But that won't help you save a pack with problems. It would help if you could give some reasons why your pack needs saving. We went through a stretch where our pack had a 75% turnover in leaders & lost a lot of continuity & sense of "how it works" -- here are a few things we learned the hard way. The one thing I would stress is communication & feedback. Make sure you have a leader's meeting every month. We do ours a week or so before the pack meeting, so all the show & tells, advancements, upcoming events get on the agenda & any necessary emails, xeroxing, etc. get done in time. Make sure you have committees to handle events like the Blue & Gold, Holiday Party, campouts & popcorn sales. Try to get parents to take on the majority of tasks that don't require a uniformed leader - let your den leaders & the CM focus on the program. The better you define these tasks, they easier it is to get volunteers. Because Pack Meetings are typically monthly, you need to start planning events & getting the word out about 2-3 months in advance. You may have council/district events that you'll need to cover in our 1st pack meeting. Make sure all den leaders know what the year's goals are: When you expect new scouts to have earned their Bobcat, when you expect Webelos 2's to start visiting troops, etc.. What your fundraising (aka POPCORN) goals are for each scout ($60-65 is a figure often used as a ballpark avg annual cost per Cub - in our council, that works out to each scout selling $175-180 of popcorn). Take attendance both at Pack & Den meetings. Make sure that if a scout misses a couple meetings in a row (pack or den), somebody contacts the parents & finds out what's up. Sometimes you'll find a situation that needs some attention. PS - You can make "taking attendance" fun. At the 1st Pack meeting, have the scouts make a "token" with their name & den number. At subsequent Pack meetings, put the tokens at the entrance; when scouts arrive, they put their token into an "attendance box". You can then pick names out of box to choose game leaders or the selected scout gets to pick a song or cheer. But more importantly, look at the tokens that didn't get in the box If the leaders & parents all know what's expected you can put on a good program & the scouts don't lose interest. NC

Deja vu? This thread is starting to sound like the infamous Dan Quayle vs Murphy Brown battle of wits. NC

Hi Lisabob, You could contact some of the neighborhood homeowners associations & see if you can get a short blurb in their newsletter. In the Atlanta suburbs where I live, most homeowners assn's usually send out something near the end of the school year about the summer swim team, end-of-school party, etc. Which is pretty close to the timeframe you're looking at. Our subdivision sends out an email/PDF, so there's no concern about xerox/paper expense. Good Luck, NC

Hi Brad, Probably the two big things to look at are the local school calendar and when roundup usually happens. Our pack doesn't meet on school holidays/days off, since its likely the scouts & their families may be out of town. Our local school system has a lot of Mondays and Wednesdays off - for normal holidays, teacher work days, unneeded snow days, early release days, etc.. As for roundup, we like to get the 1st pack meeting in as soon as possible after roundup - that way we can welcome the new families & leaders (plus get them "up to speed" with the usual Q&A) before they start having den meetings. This can be tricky, as district controls the roundup schedule (although the only function they really perform is collecting the money). So, for our pack, it turns out that the 1st Thursday of the month works out the best. Although Spring Break got us this year. NC

In any program that is truly intended to be open for all, real diversity is a side effect, not a goal. This goes for businesses, political parties, etc. NC

There seems to be a huge variety in the quality & quantity of BALOO training offered. The course I took was about 4 hours of minimal material, including an hour at lunch making hobo meals. I wish there was more standardization, along the lines of the day-long, useful training that some of you were lucky enough to get. Barring that, maybe BSA could split BALOO training into 2 parts. One part is an online part that deals with basic camping safety & Tour Permits, etc.. There could even be an online test at the end. And, it could also be used as an online reference when questions come up. Part 2 would be in-person training on hands-on skills and how your pack can put on a good camping program. NC

Hang on, let me wipe the paste off my fingers... Actually, I don't think Webelos expect to visit a troop meeting and be entertained, have fun, or see a more "sophisticated" version of a pack meeting. They do expect to see something interesting. Last year, one troop visit coincided with a review of how to pack for a backpacking trip. The Scout doing the review went over the equipment needed, what not to bring & how to pack your pack. The Web's were absolutely spellbound (and more than a few Scouts in the troop learned something as well). Another troop visit was mostly observing a business meeting. But between these 2 visits, the Web's got a pretty good idea of what they might expect when they crossed over. And, they mostly crossed into the troop that did the "business meeting", because that troop had more cool outings planned. But they probably wouldn't have paid attention on the 2nd troop visit if it weren't for the first visit firing up their interest. Now, where are my popsicle sticks and pipe cleaners... NC

Hi, Hunt. For the most part I agree with you. But I do have two points of difference: QUOTE - "Therefore, just as the Jewish child or the Hindu child in this troop merely silently endures the prayers to Jesus, ..." I would contend that if the unit is open to boys of all faiths, then nobody should have to "silently endure prayers to Jesus". Within Scouting, no boy should be a 2nd class citizen - regardless of any majorities or type of Charter Org. QUOTE "... is the idea that Scouting is really all about camping and having fun. " I think that is exactly the idea most people have about scouting = camping + fun + good deeds. Is the BSA really upfront enough about the religious aspects of membership? (for the boys, at any rate - leaders are a different matter) We live in a society where "NONE" is a valid religious choice, and most people who choose "NONE" still think of themselves as moral, upstanding people. And as moral, upstanding people, many atheist parents would probably think a program of "camping + fun + good deeds" is a good place for their son. In which case - who tells these atheist parents in no uncertain terms that their son shouldn't (or can't) join? Who tells them upfront that "NONE" is not a valid choice in BSA? Or do we wait until the boy is up for his Eagle? I don't remember anything being said about religious beliefs when my son joined his troop - but maybe that was because he crossed over from Cubs; it could be something discussed with families new to Scouting. Let the stone throwing begin! NC

Hi Jeffrey, I never seen anyone ever involved with the BSA try to shove Christianity (or any other religion) down anyone's throat. However, there are quite a few people in the BSA that seem to think and act like the BSA is a Christian organization. In our area, I don't remember ever hearing a BSA trainer or District/Council level leader explicitly state that the BSA isn't a Christian organization. And I think because so many units are chartered by churches, a fair number of leaders assume that the BSA must be a Christian organization (but that leaders & scouts of other persuasions are allowed to join). Case in point, we have one District-level official that when he does the blessing at the start of Roundtable, just can't help ending it with " in Jesus' name". Likewise, two years ago I asked if the God & Me Campout was open to non-Christian scouts or if there was an alternative available for them. The answers I got were basically, "Why would it be?" & "What would we need an alternative for". I do truly believe that the BSA won't go to any great lengths to clear up this assumption - for fear of alienating some of the Charter Orgs (or their religious leaders). NC