northernlights

Proud Eagle, having never actually attended a council camp (although my troop has camped at the council summer camp facility off-season), I am not in a position to comment on the merits of council run camps. I can say that my group likes the control and flexibility in running our own program, especially in terms of trying to maintain a boy led program and promoting the patrol method. At a council camp, the camp director is in charge, not your troop's senior patrol leader and Scoutmaster. You lose a valuable form of bonding and interaction when its someone else's staff running the program. I would assume any council camp likely offers most of the same merit badges that our troop does at camp, I would hope that being in the wilderness is used as an opportunity to teach outdoor skills and not Citizenship. Ultimately, I think the reason we run our own camp answer comes down to fun. I don't think we would have as much fun at council camp.

EagleInKY, thus far we have not had a problem with the council. As far as I know we don't have any camp positions filled by anyone who has been through any national training, although our leaders have been through the youth protection training and we have a few EMT's and other individuals who are Red Cross certified in CPR present. Its scary to hear some troops have had problems, because it doesn't seem much of a stretch to me for them to then try and apply the same logic to a weekend campout at a lake. Being the cynic that I am when it comes to central governing bodies, it looks to me like a thinly veiled attempt to get that troop to participate in a council run camp or fill bodies in the national certification programs. I'm fairly certain I know what Baden-Powell's take on such a position would be.

Dan, in response to your statement "The only thing that I would change, is that I would not have any adults camping with the patrols.": To clarify, the adults do not camp with the patrols, they sleep in a seperate area about 100 feet away from the closest patrol. Adults are present while meals are being cooked. The nice thing about having run the program for so many years is the organization is mostly already done, its really reduced just to execution. Commissary and physical transport to camp are about the two largest logistical challenges. Comissary is complicated a bit by the lack of electricity so we have to make several trips into town over the course of the week for ice and for milk/meats later in the week. As far as transport in past years we used to use a school bus to haul everyone to camp, although the person who was able to arrange that in the past is no longer in a position to do so and we are now forced to use private vehicles. This is where the proliferation of SUV's comes in handy, many vehicles can seat 5 plus a driver comfrotably for the 5 hour trip to camp.

John-in-KC, thank you for your critique of the program, I anticipated I might have it picked apart and truthfully I wanted to see where we need improvement. I agree with and would like to thank "Scoutldr" for his responses as they reflect the way things are done and how they comply. I do find John's "parsing" of what I said is quite interesting in the sense that while he manages to find ways of infering perceived infractions based on a brief accounting of what we do, he don't have much in the way of constructive suggestions or positive things to say. This reflects the sort of "mommy knows best" attitude I frequently find in my interactions with the scout council and some of its professional scouters who seem to act more like OSHA inspecters than teachers/menters and professionals trying to make Scouting a positive and enriching experience for the youth. I'm looking for real suggestions to make the program better or constructive criticism regarding things that might be putting the health or safety of the scouts in danger. That said, the one part of John-in-KC's response that I do consider to be a point worthy of more discussion is in regard to the "boy led troop". In answer to his question, in addition to Summer Camp there is a 2 week high adventure trip entirely planned by the boys (they're given a budget, they choose where they would like to go, what they would like to do, and where they will camp along the way). We are constantly open to doing any activities the scouts are willing to help plan, but in the absense of that the troop has a default set of activities that it sponsors every year. Perhaps by putting on those default activities the boys feel less inclined to be involved and use it as an excuse not to do so. Our scouts have the option to attend council camp as well, and a handful do each year. The two comments I always here from them are: its more expensive (we charge $90 for the week) its less fun So, I'd like to ask anyone following along: Do you think maintaining the traditional program that has been tuned over the last 20 years is causing us to miss out in someway or not providing the boys an opportunity to adapt it? As a way of background, the bike trip and the expanded craft area were both based on suggestions from scouts and the bike trip is planned by the older boys. The program we run is based on many years of trial and error and reflects what we have found works to organize a large number of people and still provide a fun and educational time. At the same time, its open to any change that is suggested.

SeattlePioneer, thank you for your kind words. The wooden stove cooking is probably the biggest daily hassle we face. Judging from the dry summers when there is a fireban, using propane stoves would save 15-30 minutes per meal, but I think there's a certain amount of satisfaction from cooking over a real wood fire. We use half barrel stoves on freestanding legs. The boys always seem to underestimate the amount of wood it actually takes to cook and clean up a meal on those things. If left entirely to their own devices, the boys usually seem to let the fire die about 10 minutes after it was started due to a lack of adding additional wood. Pancakes are by far the most difficult to make on a woodstove, followed by French toast. Even letting the fire go to coals you still end up with some hotspotting. Every other campout we go on is propane stove powered.

I would strongly advise that anyone in a position to do so finish their Eagle badge before high school. My friend and I both finished our Eagle service projects and received our badges the summer before our Freshmen year of high school. Once high school starts Scouting gets some intense competition in the form of clubs, sports, and social activities, and it will become harder and harder to find time to finish. If a boy is going to get the badge, it seems he either has it by 15 or ends up getting it at 17.9 Maybe it is the program I was in, but I never felt like I was rushing or hurrying to finish up my Eagle before high school. Our troop met weekly during the school year and you could typically count on picking up one or two required Eagle badges a year during the course of normal meetings (we did the Citizenships and Communications as a group). Summer Camp provided an opportunity to pick up another 3 inside of a week including several required Eagle badges.

I wanted to share some experiences regarding the weeklong summer camp program my troop has put on for the past 20 summers (this is independent from any council camp). We typically take between 50 and 75 people to a state owned group campsite on a lake in the upper Midwest. The last few years we have run a program for about 45 scouts and 20 leaders (only about a dozen can make the whole week, the others will typically come for the beginning or end due to work comittments). We break the group down into 4-6 patrols consisting of 8-12 people (patrol size typically shrinks after the first weekend as dads return to work). A patrol will consist of a minimum of 2 adult leaders, 2 junior leaders (high school aged), a patrol leader, an assistant patrol leader and 4-6 scouts. Each patrol is responsible for cooking breakfast and dinner on a wooden stove with wood they gather themselves (we all pray the day before it doesn't rain on the Saturday we head to camp!). The boys sleep at the patrol site in 2 man Voyager tents while JL's and adults sleep in a seperate area (this helps provide an opportunity for the patrol leader to further develop leadership skills). Every patrol has a dining fly, 2 picnic tables, and a patrol box with cast iron and aluminum cookware. We run a structured program for a scout's first 4 years at camp. Each day has three class periods during which scouting skills are taught. A scout will typically earn three merit badges each year at camp. Camp is a great opportunity to provide the boys with a chance for rank advancement. The programs we offer are: First years: Skills (Knife/Axe/Orienteering), Introduction to Boating, Swimming Second Years: Cooking, Camping, Canoeing Third Years: Sailing, Lifesaving, Environmental Science For fourth year and beyond we offer the following: Wilderness survival, Pioneering, Motorboating, Waterskiing, and Personal Fitness (typically everyone takes Wilderness survival and Enviro Science in year 4) 4th year and older scouts will typically be a student in one or two of the classes, and assist in the instruction of 1 or 2 of the other classes depending on their area of interest and the scheduling of individual classes. Most classes are taught by one adult leader with assistance from one or two JL's, although the Intro to Boating class with have 3-4 adults to help the physically smaller scouts have an enjoyable time with canoes and rowboats. A typical day at camp is as follows: 6 AM: Comissary staff rouses and begins assembling each patrol food basket. 7:45 AM: Wakeup call for the boys. 8 AM: Food basket pickup. 10:30 AM: General assembly (some breakfasts, like pancakes, take longer to cook due to the unique experience of wood stove cooking and we also like to leave the boys a little time to build camp improvements and keep their tents in good order). 11 AM: First skill period. 12 PM: Second skill period 1 PM: Lunch 2 PM: Third skill period 3 PM: Group activity (in the course of a week it will typically consist of capture the flag, treasure hunt, pioneering olympics, waterfront olympics, and a mile run) 4:00 PM: Afternoon free period 5:00 PM: Dinner After dinner until 9:00 PM is another free period. 9:15 PM: Campfire and snack 10:00 PM: Scouts return to their tents and patrol leaders, JL's and adults hold a brief leaders meeting. 11:00 PM: Lights out for scouts. JL's typically hang out around the campfire for a bit together with the adults who aren't into playing cards =) During free periods we have a supervised waterfront available with a half dozen canoes, 3 row boats, 2-3 sail boats, and a kayak. The lake we are on is about 3/4 of a mile in diameter and because of this and its location rarely sees any powered craft other than fishing boats, so its essentially a private lake and isolated. Two carpeted rafts are anchored about 100 feet off shore. There is also a marked swimming area with bouys. Each new scout is tested their first day at camp to determine their swimming proficiency. The best swimmers may use the rafts, lesser swimmers must stay in the bouyed area (roughly 3.5 feet deep), and scouts who are poor swimmers are limited to the bathing area only. Waterfront supervision will consist of a lifeguard in a rowboat out at the rafts and 2 adults on shore with a JL. We employ the buddy system and conduct routine counts. An air horn is used to signal the boats on the lake approximately 15 minutes before the waterfront will close. The mile swim is offered in the evening (the lake is usually calmest at this point) and will require an adult to row a boat with a scout acting as spotter with a lifesaving pole to provide assistance if required. In addition to the waterfront, there is also a staffed campcraft tent with leather, bead, and basketmaking supplies. Space Exploration merit badge is run during free periods and scouts will build and launch their own model rocket. Several times during the week off-lake fishing trips will take place to provide the boys an opportunity to fish other lakes. We have a few special days that keep things from becoming routine. Wednesday there is a bike trip for any patrol leader aged boys or older, and a canoe trip for everyone who does not attend the bike trip. Extra canoe's are rented and delivered to whatever local river appears the most navigable that year. After the canoe or bike trip we take the boys to see an amatuer waterski show in town. After the ski show is pizza for the high school aged scouts and leaders while the younger boys go back to camp and run their own campfire program. Also, one night a week is banquet, where the comissary staff puts on an amazing meal consisting of a choice of two meats, soups, salads, and potato with a sheet cake for dessert. Nightly campfires are usually planned by the older boys. Each night a different patrol presents a skit to ensure all the boys have an opportunity to participate. The results of the daily inspections are read and provide some good entertainment (we find out how creative the inspectors are at coming up with new words for "sludge" or "goo"). The older boys usually deliver a nightly news program to recount some of the more humorous incidents that day (made funnier by the fact that everyone has already heard of what happened so it can be embellished quite nicely) and some cleverly placed public service announcements (a nice way of encouraging the boys to bathe and brush their teeth and keep their gear from touching the side of their tents). In good years we will have one or more guitar players to make the songs sound better (this is a lifesaver when everyone has forgotten a particular part of the song). On occassion we will have a banjo or bugle. Campfire ends with a Scoutmasters minute and taps. I hope everyone enjoyed hearing about the camp program we put on and hopefully this might give someone else some ideas for their own outings or inspire them to try something similar. If this topic seems to be of interest to people I will also post about the 2 week long high adventure trip our troop takes every year with the high school aged scouts. I also want to offer a heartfelt thanks to all the leaders at my troop and all troops who give of their time to make scouting such a memorable experience. I'm just about to turn 30 and I love telling co-workers who ask where I'm vacating that I'm going to Summer Camp. I'm having just as much fun at camp now as I did as a boy. Some of the guys in my Eagle scout class still make the trip up to camp. In fact, we routinely see a half dozen young men between age 18 and 30 who still come to camp each year. Congratulations to anyone who read this whole thing! =)