Basementdweller

Your Right Norm....Nobody cares...... I am not sure they should.

How old is your son???? Age has little to do with it...I routinely take 11 and 12 year olds on weekend trips. What does he weigh???? Generally a person should never carry more than 20% of their body weight so a boy who is 100 pounds isn't going to be able to carry his gear..... Is he active in sports or a fluffy video game player????? Sports kids need zero prep....fluffy game players a bunch of hardening, maybe a years worth. the length of the hike is pretty irrelevant....What is the terrain.. mountains or flat....How about elevation....east coast mountains or rockys????? Altitude and climbs.... I would not ask a typical 11 or 12 year old to do 50 miles over a week... they will get bored and quit. (This message has been edited by Basementdweller)

How about the next camp out, the troop purchases the pocket rockets and plans a backpacking menu......... This will get them experience in meal planning, what they like and don't like.... Eagle nailed it, go to the grocery store, not the outfitter for food. they have a variety of Knorr meals, my favorite cheesy mashed potatos with spam or bacon..... I would suggest that you have the boys try the various water purification methods here too....It is a bad idea to take a young man on a multi day trip and discover on day 1 he won't drink water purified with chemicals because of taste. The next campout the boys bring their choice of backpacking tents plus cook on the pocket rockets..... Backpacks are tough......the boys will outgrow them and they are expensive.....that is why the troop owns the small and medium ones......

Just caught old scouter adams line about the Journey to excellence being a great program..... HMMMMM, I gotta ask.....so how long have you been an adult scouter?????? MOST if not all view it as a complete waste of time.......

this has got to be the most ignorant conversation I have ever seen..... The guys are best friends.....Hang together year round...... Your gonna make one of them resign from venturing.......... Of course they can't share a tent...but should both be allowed to follow the ypt guidelines and remain members... My friend you should resign not the youth.....Leaders make the tough decisions....I would go to bat with the COR and IH for both examples you cite to keep the youth and young adults in the program..... You have a great program and are simply to blinded by rules to see it....

How about running the merit badge program as intended????

Brew.....Backpacking successfully and comfortably is very region specific.....While I am very comfortable and successful in my outdoor adventures on the east coast woodlands and mid range mountains....I also understand that it is significantly different in the Cascade Mountains, White mountains and desert environment....I would need to do some reading and seek advice from those more experienced. Leave no trace is different as well.... an example is some places you must backpack out your bodily waste so you would need to carry a poo tube. Other places you can't get off the trail period because of alpine or desert crust.... Some places you are required to carry a bear canister....even in some locations in the Adirondacks and south east now. Altitude sickness, probably not in Wisconsin. Stoves volcanos are hard to use because we have complete burn bans and dealing with wet wood is an issue....Canisters are fantastic for scouts to use....Pocket rockets are standard fair and do a great job. Jetboils are more money and the group cooking system might be alright for a scout group, the personal systems are too heavy. Liquid fuel, lots of fiddling around and extra maintenance all though they out perform canisters near or below freezing...... We buddy cook, boys pair up smaller cheaper pots. Generally they eat either directly out of the pot or the ziploc bag their meal is in. long handled spoon and cup are the only utensil's I carry. Water Purification.....I carry a 4 liter platapus system gravity....works well. I can carry 8 liters of water from the water source per trip....enough for a group of 10. No dining flys... We backpacked last weekend, 40 degrees it started to ran round 7.....that was ok because it was dark....the boys got 12 hours of sleep that night.... I don't like the boys owning their own tents for this type of outing......We started out with mid summer trips and using plastic sheeting for make shift tarps.....the problem is if they get wet and it is cold there is no easy solution......My parents would send their scout with a walmart or dicks tent and not think anything of it. I have been buying tents for this.....I have a mix of sierra design zolo2's and marmot limelight 2.......The zolos are great because they have two doors....I like the marmot construction better and it seems to be more water tight. had the zolo has misted thru once during a serious down pour.....both can be had for $125 via google search.... Backpacks......Golite has specials running on their website.....$90 will get you a small or medium 60 liter pack.....my son uses one very nice.... Campmor has some youth sized packs for $49.....They have a plastic frame and every scout that uses them ends up bruised......I use a granite gear pack.... They don't need a 90 liter pack.....something 50-70 should be plenty......Osprey, kelty are decent scout packs. Sleeping bags while backpacking are always a problem...A walmart or dicks bag will not compress enough to fit well in an internal frame pack......Functionally they are fine.....but they are just huge....... Steepandcheap offers 30 degree down bags from $80....I have a couple I loan out.....They can be compressed to the size of a softball.... Clothing....mostly what they have in the closet....Just make sure they test what they are gonna wear on the shake down trips. if you shakedown during the spring of fall make sure they carry clothing they only sleep in, that way they don't go to bed wet.... What I have done for our troop is purchased or got donated gear.....The packs and sleeping bags are my personal property and are checked out by the boys.... It is a huge expense and daunting for a parent looking at it.

I forgot to mention the stuff animal kidnapping....... Really????? Your announcing it and making threats????? Oh the bad memories continue......

Ohana You need to understand that all woodbadge courses are not created equal..... A poor patrol will also ruin the course..... My course experience was horrible and after 2 years I think I have a grasp of the courses failures. 1. Never allow a parent to be on staff with a child in the course. I got in the middle of some mother son power struggle.....As patrol leader I was called out to deal with misbehaving 18 year old scout son. Same son had his ticket dictated to him at the last minute by a staff member. 2. While diversity is great in the patrol, put like minded or at least geographically folks together in the same patrol. The hilljacks that don't have cellphones or computers don't belong in patrols with folks that do......They also don't answer messages or participate in patrol meetings. 3. Staff grab ass. My staff spent hours screwing around at gilwell. The inside jokes and the announcement song over and over and over again....complete with the second verse. Take charge for cryin out loud, fixed for OGE, sake. 4. The complete failure of the CD, TG and Ticket councilor, who I was randomly assigned, to interact with me and get my ticket signed off and never Actually receive my beads after finishing my ticket. 5. Do not allow District or Council IOLS course Directors to staff the course. The quality of my WB patrol expereince was negatively impacted by the IOLS course directors holding court in their camp site and all of the individual course staff left our patrol site to go be with their IOLS director and staff.... For the average cube dweller a waste of time.....It was a huge waste of time. But I am an Eagle scout, been to Philmont, jambo and Brown Sea as a youth...... and OH.....My Ticket was things I was going to do anyway......If yours was stuff you wouldn't have done then I think you missed the mark. (This message has been edited by Basementdweller)

Ya know brew if we knew what region of the country you were in that would be a big help... Many backpacking trails have springs or water sources that don't require filtering......or trail systems that are good for a beginner group.

The adults who never been buy them on ebay and spin lies about their fake trek.... You actually did it, wear it with pride.

Brew.... so what is your experience/training to take the boys on such a trek????? What is the boys outdoor experience and ages???? I remember a year ago you were a webelos den leader.....If you have a bunch of 11 and 12 year olds this is a really bad idea. Most of those age fellows cannot manage themselves on car camping trip.... Maybe backpack into your campsite at the local BSA camp and back out the next day for a trial. They do not have the body mass to carry a pack with the sort of gear they can afford any distance. Remember do not exceed 20% of their body weight so for a typical 11 year old that is going to be 25 pounds max. 5 pound sleeping bag, 5 pounds backpack, 3 pounds his share of the tent, 1 pound sleeping pad, water and he is done...No stove or patrol shared gear. So what is the group size going to be????? 15 or 20????? remember LNT and most land managers limit group size to 10 and some significantly less Brew you need to get trained and get some experience before you take the troop out....... This is how and why the BSA has such a horrible reputation in the outdoor community.

more bad advice from different regions of the country.......What works in the desert does not work in the eastern mountains or cascades...... So stop blindly offering advice. So lets see the parents are going to spend at least $100 on backpack, sleeping pads, wool socks, synthetic this and that.......completely stupid.......You will never go past go and collect $200. We are talking about a walk out to a campsite, hopefully less than 5 miles spending the night and walking out.... This maybe a one shot deal....... As a SM I would go with someone experienced first, without the troop. Having the boys along an trying to figure things out is a recipe for disaster.... Brew if your interested, I have all the gear you need, tents backpacks stoves, cookware and even water purification, I wouldn't mind a road trip, just send me an email at Basementdweller1@gmail hopefully east of the Mississippi.....

I guess that is probably why most of our scout gear is stored off CO property.

Well the old summer camp staff problem isn't bradely's.....it depends on the CD. Our camp has a number of married couples working their some in the early 20's and some in their 60's. Far as sleeping arrangements I could careless.....Not my problem. bottom line is I think everything is good as long as they don't share a tent till they are married. I really don't thing anyone is disputing that.

Sorry OGE.....didn't see this one Your screen name says SM so I am going to assume that we are talking Boy Scouts not Cubs.... But I regularly take the troop 22 active. with one asm...If we do not leave the council boundary we do not need a tour permit. It depends on the boys.....would I take 20 11 year olds, with only two adults, NO. or 20 17 year olds....piece of cake. There are some common sense things....If a boy has an issue the entire group goes to the ER or we wait for the Parents to come get him......So if you had 4 adults.....two could haul the injured scout to the ER and two could stay at camp.

There is no national rule regarding it as others stated..... But in the best interest of the boys....a fellow who is a ditch digger probably shouldn't be teaching nuclear science or Dentistry........ There are a lot of parents and leaders who become merit badge councilors just so their boys don't have to use the program as intended...... I only teach the merit badges I consider myself expert in the subject matter.

You guys are ridiculous....... I would ignore the guidelines.....they are engaged for petesake..... I misstated the young man could still tent with his buddies......he would need to tent with the adults.....But the young lady at till the ceremony needs to tent with the youth. I wouldn't bother the SE with it.....I would ask the IH at the CO for their take...... I bet they won't have any issue with both being a member as long as the Youth Protection is followed. So one or the other is faced with resigning from the crew.....That is just plumb dumb....and will hurt the crew. Although I do like JM's solution, Both ASM with the troop.....It eliminates the Venturing confusion.

No idea why the other thread was closed..... Your screen name says SM so I am going to assume that we are talking Boy Scouts not Cubs.... But I regularly take the troop 22 active. with one asm...If we do not leave the council boundary we do not need a tour permit. It depends on the boys.....would I take 20 11 year olds, NO. or 20 17 year olds....piece of cake.

OH....in all honesty I have seen it too........But typically in my area it is poor folks.....there is a reason they are poor....Organization and follow thru is a problem.

I agree with Q. What happens if they are married and both youth, under 21????? They tent with the other adults......Or can tent separately with their friends....Best of both worlds. They are engaged and have a history.......So we are talking about 18 months......No biggy in my book. Just be up front with them about expectations.... Not sure what your crews policy is on PDA, Public Display of affection, I would just remind them of expectations.....

Let me dig around some more..... There was a Citation of an Eagle candidate smoking pot on a campout. And another shoplifting from a trading post.....

Ya Calico....I stick up for my own, just like the rich take care of their own.......Remember the do gooder a couple of months ago.....going to do scouting in a homeless shelter to try to keep the boys from being the dredges of society..... A shame that California is not a progressive as Ohio...I can look up anyones property value online.......then we would know for sure..... Yo Eagle732 interested in a research project......send me the links.. skeptic....that is fair enough....Local governments do benefit from the BSA....I guess I was looking at it from the other perspective.....

We can't afford it either..... So in reality we are getting our moneys worth

You want to actually fix the problem... Paid professional staff at the district level... All advancement done at the district level only by the professionals.... All Record keeping at the district level.... Any time you put parents in charge of their childs records or a competitors records there will be problems.